I'm extreme and I want to have a choice

[Elkim]

Hey guys,

 

I've been worried with this kinda from the moment I joined HWBOT and fell in love with benching. Please, don't get me wrong, this is NOT one of those "I can't win, nerf this and that" complains.

 

I just don't understand why apprentice and futher leagues cannot compete in ambient competitions with ambient cooling methods.

 

I would like to share some of my thoughts. I have started benching on watercooling, I have invested alot of money, time and effort with ambient cooling and even when I made THE step and I have started with liquid nitrogen, I'm using ambient methods also and I am not alone.

 

This whole thing, benching, overclocking should support people in keep pushing IT harder, it does, but I feel that this system also punish the effort in this way. I started with extreme not a long ago, and yes, its hard for me to compete with pro's and I'm not complaining about that. Why I just cannot freely decide, what cooling method will I use and follow the rules in it?

 

Yes, there are ambient/extreme comps sometimes, like MSI today and like FORMULA which is only for ambient and nothing for apprentice and futher. I want to compete, why I just cannot join and follow the rules? And I'm not talking about that, that this MSI extreme is the last, there wont be any more, only in ambient, so what I'm just screwed because I decided to push my overclocking?

 

Another reason why this is wrong is that I know of many people, who would like to start with liquid nitrogen and they just won't because they won't be able to join many competitions in future. Don't we want more people involved in overclocking and extreme overclocking also?

 

For me, I love XOC and I used to love ambient also, but what is the point now? Also, not everyone even if they are working with LN2 cannot do that everytime they want/need and because of many factors. For some, the LN2 could be expensive (not my case), they don't own dewar or so, for me, there are medical reasons, I just say, if I want to bench XOC, I need other person assistance and I don't get that everytime I need it.

 

Before someone starts talking about binning reasons, don't give me that, even ambient users buy binned HW.

 

Again, this is NOT cry thread, I'm just thinking that it would be nice to have OPTION OF FREE CHOICE in competitions and people could decide what way they will go.

 

Thanks...

[K404]

Am I mis-understanding your post? I thought anyone could join in any competition, as long as they followed the rules?

[Mr.Scott]

I feel your pain.

You are collateral damage. Many are.

The problem is that the cooling method and temps cannot be verified without dispute during your bench session. It is becoming more of a problem lately.

Once people see the you have used extreme methods, they think that you'll some how employ that in the lesser cooling comps. Most don't, but there is always the few cheats that will.

Until temp and cooling method can be positively confirmed, without dispute, the situation may never change.

[Mr.Scott]

Am I mis-understanding your post? I thought anyone could join in any competition, as long as they followed the rules?

No. Unfortunately that is not the case.

[K404]

Oh dear.

 

That sounds like a mis-step to me, though I can definitely see why it's simple to implement.

 

I LOVE messing around with watercooling and air has its uses. Taking part in an ambient contest sounds relaxing. I don't think my interest in LN2 should affect that.

[Elkim]

I feel your pain.

You are collateral damage. Many are.

The problem is that the cooling method and temps cannot be verified without dispute during your bench session. It is becoming more of a problem lately.

Once people see the you have used extreme methods, they think that you'll some how employ that in the lesser cooling comps. Most don't, but there is always the few cheats that will.

Until temp and cooling method can be positively confirmed, without dispute, the situation may never change.

 

Thats kinda twisted. So we will have this that way we have because of some people might think? Where is the logic? If I want to cheat, I will find a way how to do it and everybody does.

 

I don't think that we should accept any kind of extreme league=more chance to cheat thinking.

[K404]

 

I don't think that we should accept any kind of extreme league=more chance to cheat thinking.

 

I don't think that we should accept any kind of ambient league. No-one runs hotter for better MHz, so less reason to "muddy the water" (*except for AMD 754/939/940)

 

 

[speed.fastest]

Yeah, its same as me, i just win my first extreme local oc competition, thats my personal first real benching with LN2 and i winning it. Now i had dewar, but for me LN2 cost really expensive. If i can join ambient competition that will be good, because we extreme and enthusiast skill is about same, maybe some enthusiast skill much better than me. The difference between extreme andd enthusiast i think is cooling method only.

[Xtreme Addict]

XOC is dead. No more online XOC contests (the MSI one is the last one for XOC), no more XOC live contests hosted by HWBOT sponsors. I think time to change rules that everyone can participate in ambient contests cause if that doesn't happen, most of us will just compete for those because of boredom on different accounts, or putting puppets ahead of us (like my younger brother ^^).

[Elkim]

XOC is dead. No more online XOC contests (the MSI one is the last one for XOC), no more XOC live contests hosted by HWBOT sponsors. I think time to change rules that everyone can participate in ambient contests cause if that doesn't happen, most of us will just compete for those because of boredom on different accounts, or putting puppets ahead of us (like my younger brother ^^).

 

 

 

I wonder, what happend that there wont be any XOC competitions? All vendors just decided not to support XOC in this way? Even ASUS?

 

 

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[Rauf]

It's a little funny that hwbot also wants to force the best enthusiasts into extreme league. And once they are there they have nothing. Right nvidiaforever2?

[Xtreme Addict]

I wonder, what happend that there wont be any XOC competitions? All vendors just decided not to support XOC in this way? Even ASUD?

 

 

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Looks like that. Asus launches @ 2x ambient contests, no extreme version, it's not even in plans afaik. MSI informed it's last XOC contest, if they ever do another contest @ it will be only ambient. GB is for now sleeping but they pushed some competitions in the past with too much LC and not many xoc guys participated, so most likely they will take a long pause if ever decided to push some more online XOC contests. This is regarding online contests from hwbot sponsors. Regarding live contests: HOT most likely won't happen this year, AOOC is stopped since 2014, MOA won't happen ever again cause MSI is going for gaming only, GOOC is cancelled for 6 years now ^^

 

So basically XOC contests are out for the moment or even forever, so in such case we have to discuss opening of all ambient contests to all the guys. Cause why Extreme and Elite hw should be getting dust?

Edited August 28, 2016 by Xtreme Addict

[Elkim]

Damn, it looks like I've started with XOC in right time

 

So I guess this thread is more important than ever because shizstorm might coming.

 

I would really like to read some comments from leadership in this matter.

 

 

 

 

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[Xtreme Addict]

Damn, it looks like I've started with XOC in right time

 

So I guess this thread is more important than ever because shizstorm might coming.

 

I would really like to read some comments from leadership in this matter.

 

 

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Well why shitstorm? I see 2 possible things, a) hwbot opens ambient to all b) some XOC guys who will be bored will just use fake accounts or put friends or other air/wc users from their city/country just to have some fun/try to win some parts

[speed.fastest]

In Indonesia Extreme Overclocking is growing from what i see, about 2-3 live extreme OC competition a year. But LN2 cost really expensive for my budget. I got about $114 a month and LN2 Price is about $1.5/litre and if i buy i must fill my dewar full (35 litre).

[Elkim]

Well why shitstorm? I see 2 possible things, a) hwbot opens ambient to all b) some XOC guys who will be bored will just use fake accounts or put friends or other air/wc users from their city/country just to have some fun/try to win some parts

 

 

 

OK, that was little bit exaggeration but I was asking for that second option you're talking about and its not allowed. I would hate to see this place become in something where people are breaking rules, that was what I ment

 

 

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[Xtreme Addict]

OK, that was little bit exaggeration but I was asking for that second option you're talking about and its not allowed. I would hate to see this place become in something where people are breaking rules, that was what I ment

 

 

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Sure, all is not allowed, hw sharing, score sharing too and we can see it sometimes among many well known users or even mods. The problem is how much you can prove. Using some puppet with new hwbot account or some older retired user from hwbot and so on, what is the problem? you can supply pictures of setup, even with his face on it ^^ his address for shipping prizes. I am just saying - HWBOT will not be able to prove anything. Especially that we are talking about ambient with strict rules like +30*C, so just 300-400 euro EK waterloop will be good enough for that. Everyone can buy it. Of course when someone from nowhere appears in XOC and gets like WR or top 3 score in competition out of nowhere this is a bit suspicious.

[Mr.Scott]

Thats kinda twisted. So we will have this that way we have because of some people might think? Where is the logic? If I want to cheat, I will find a way how to do it and everybody does.

 

I don't think that we should accept any kind of extreme league=more chance to cheat thinking.

 

You can think what you want, that doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

Open your eyes, you will find impossible subs on ambient everywhere.

[Massman]

First of all, really great feedback @Elkim. I hadn't considered this point of view earlier, but what you write makes total sense. :celebration:

 

I wonder, what happend that there wont be any XOC competitions? All vendors just decided not to support XOC in this way? Even ASUS?

 

As usual, Xtreme Addict over-simplifies a complex situation.

 

Long story short: it's difficult to justify spending heaps on prizes for XOC competitions when the participation is as low as it currently is. The current MSI XOC competition has 10 participants(*) and the top-3 receives a BWD-E CPU+MB+MEM. I've always advocated for XOC competitions, but even for me it's difficult to make a case nowadays as you can imagine. Of course HWBOT will still be organizing competitions for people who enjoy XOC as we've been doing since 2009 .

 

XOC is of course not dead, but the huge 'easy' sponsorships and free hardware are gone. For now, at least, as it will come back once XOC gains traction again in the future. XOC has HUGE potential, as this is still the group that pushes the hardware to its limit. That is valuable in any industry, be it hardware, bicycles or audio. Anyone who wants to make something out of XOC will have to change approach to the hobby and prove to potential sponsors that affiliating products and brand with the XOC is good for them. See it as a challenge .

 

Also, XOC still is a very easy way to promote your new product releases. It's not a coincidence that all the past CPU launches have had explicit focus on the overclocking capabilities on LN2. Judging from what I hear from inside the industry, I doubt this will change any time soon.

 

If you want some inspiration, some recent XOC content that did very well:

and

. In general, I'd recommend to focus on 1) positive and passionate messaging, 2) reliable and resourceful information, and 3) be transparent about the difference between 'daily' use and 'overclocking' use of hardware.

 

(*): I know how many samples have been sent out to XOC and it's more than the people participating in the competitions.

[Elkim]

In Indonesia Extreme Overclocking is growing from what i see, about 2-3 live extreme OC competition a year. But LN2 cost really expensive for my budget. I got about $114 a month and LN2 Price is about $1.5/litre and if i buy i must fill my dewar full (35 litre).

 

 

 

That's very bad price I pay about 0,25$ for litre. But I guess XOC is hard for everyone in some way.

 

 

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[Xtreme Addict]

@Massman

 

I am not blaming currently vendors or HWBOT regarding the current situation, even I stated in previous post with GB Skylake contest that I doubt something will be hosted after low amount of participants. Even where competitions had bad rules, I tried (and almost in all) I posted some scores, even just for a lucky draw. I believe that if most ocers did as I was doing, XOC contests participation would be few times bigger ^^ XOC participation is harder than ambient, because it all costs more. For ambient even if you don't have motherboard, you can just buy it online (especially in EU), use it on benchtable without any signs of damage/mounting in the case and return to the shop and get a full refund. When you want to do same for LN2, well isolating motherboard might make it impossible to return to the shop. LN2 is also expensive and you need like a good CPU and so on to make it worth. Though if all the guys who got samples from the vendors just pushed something, as they should, numbers would look like much better. That's why I didn't write we have to fix XOC contests, cause most likely it's a lost cause. I wrote that those few guys who like competitions, like winning hw, some purpose to bench, will have to adapt and we will do it legally (if HWBOT opens it to all) or we will just do it illegally (with some puppets).

 

 

In this thread I stated pretty much obvious, XOC for private ocers is dead, cause no competitions, samples are more and more limited, but I agree XOC will not die (not now and in few years) in terms of the launch to show potential of new CPUs and so on, but it will be more and more limited to just few chosen/elite guys, or maybe even at some point just for in-house overclockers. With HW more and more expensive I believe we will see lower and lower amount of XOC guys playing in the rankings. But there will be always someone doing something, cause it's a hobby, has $ and nothing better to do

[K404]

But there will be always someone doing something, cause it's a hobby, has $ and nothing better to do

 

 

BOOM! If someone is OCing because they want to be famous, quit and buy a guitar, or date a footballer. Or something like that. Prepping hardware + OS, then benching it, is either an enjoyable process.... or it isn't

[Elkim]

First of all, really great feedback @Elkim. I hadn't considered this point of view earlier, but what you write makes total sense. :celebration:

 

 

 

As usual, Xtreme Addict over-simplifies a complex situation.

 

Long story short: it's difficult to justify spending heaps on prizes for XOC competitions when the participation is as low as it currently is. The current MSI XOC competition has 10 participants(*) and the top-3 receives a BWD-E CPU+MB+MEM. I've always advocated for XOC competitions, but even for me it's difficult to make a case nowadays as you can imagine. Of course HWBOT will still be organizing competitions for people who enjoy XOC as we've been doing since 2009 .

 

XOC is of course not dead, but the huge 'easy' sponsorships and free hardware are gone. For now, at least, as it will come back once XOC gains traction again in the future. XOC has HUGE potential, as this is still the group that pushes the hardware to its limit. That is valuable in any industry, be it hardware, bicycles or audio. Anyone who wants to make something out of XOC will have to change approach to the hobby and prove to potential sponsors that affiliating products and brand with the XOC is good for them. See it as a challenge .

 

Also, XOC still is a very easy way to promote your new product releases. It's not a coincidence that all the past CPU launches have had explicit focus on the overclocking capabilities on LN2. Judging from what I hear from inside the industry, I doubt this will change any time soon.

 

If you want some inspiration, some recent XOC content that did very well:

and

. In general, I'd recommend to focus on 1) positive and passionate messaging, 2) reliable and resourceful information, and 3) be transparent about the difference between 'daily' use and 'overclocking' use of hardware.

 

(*): I know how many samples have been sent out to XOC and it's more than the people participating in the competitions.

 

Thank you, I'm glad, that my point of view made some attention. I understand what are you writing. I'm myself bit marketing guy, so I know how to promote IT (whole XOC and OC itself).

 

I know how is the situation about overclocking and samples here, in Czech Republic. Most vendors or their marketing departments don't care much about "just" OC. They do a bit but they need also bit more.

 

So I took my MOCF and wrote OC-related review without SATA/LAN/FPS metric craps as other reviewers does, and people liked it. Then I showed it to ASUS and they sent me M8I, I wrote same style review and then we agreed that I can keep it in terms of longer cooperation. Then I asked another vendor for hi-end board and they said sure, we will send you the board for some good OC time.

 

LoL, even local LN2 supplier gave me better price when I ask for it and told them what I'm doing and I promised to mention them on social networks from time to time.

 

I asked a month ago alot of vendors for their support me in XOC. Only 2 sent me stuff in cost of 900 $ ( +- ). Few replied that they will forward my request to specific department, few said they are short with samples now but they would like me to keep in contact with them (which is possitive) and others didn't even replied.

 

What I'm trying to say is, that just XOC is still exotic even if overclocking itself is well used tool for all vendors marketing but if we want their support, we just need to do more than submit scores on HWB. Even thought, I was enjoying myself writing those reviews, because I did it my way, and I wrote about OC generally, not ussuall stuff and I feel its part of my hobby/sport (overclocking).

 

But, you are so right that we, overclockers, we have to do some good promotion job if we want to keep this alive and we might be able to get some more from it if we pull together in the way you're talking about.

 

But that is kinda OT now. As I mentioned, I jumped to extreme league with not just big investments but also with the feeling that I will not be able to compete as such as I could when I was in enthusiast league and I think its wrong. I was trying to push my buddy, whom is top at enthusiast league and guess why he won't do that. And its kinda sad, because he is spending incredible amount of time, money and effort to be at top.

 

I just hope that you guys will take this in consider and it will not take months or years to make some reasonable change

[K404]

So I took my MOCF and wrote OC-related review without SATA/LAN/FPS metric craps as other reviewers does, and people liked it. Then I showed it to ASUS and they sent me M8I, I wrote same style review and then we agreed that I can keep it in terms of longer cooperation. Then I asked another vendor for hi-end board and they said sure, we will send you the board for some good OC time.

 

LoL, even local LN2 supplier gave me better price when I ask for it and told them what I'm doing and I promised to mention them on social networks from time to time.

 

I asked a month ago alot of vendors for their support me in XOC. Only 2 sent me stuff in cost of 900 $ ( +- ). Few replied that they will forward my request to specific department, few said they are short with samples now but they would like me to keep in contact with them (which is possitive) and others didn't even replied.

 

 

DISCLAIMER: for most people in most regions, it is probably not this easy.

 

If it was, we'd all be hooked up, sitting on thrones made of hardware.

[Elkim]

DISCLAIMER: for most people in most regions, it is probably not this easy.

 

If it was, we'd all be hooked up, sitting on thrones made of hardware.

 

I'm not sure about that, because from what I've been told, Czech Republic is kinda hard in this. We are small, we don't speak english (most of us), noone gives a shiz about us, there is no top overclocker in our country, frankly I might be only one with decent activity with LN2, the second one is in enthusiast league and those who are overclocking at higher level submits maybe once in two months or half a year, if so. Now compare us with other locations, where I heard that get anything is hard...

 

It's about people, not place in universe.