R5: Pro OC V2 - Pro OC Cup introduction

Massman · December 21, 2012

Okay, thanks for the clarification. It's a good idea to provide more platforms for overclockers to enjoy their hobby at, I think, but I do have a sidenote related to engaging new people and its relation to exposure of overclocking achievements.

If you are currently looking for a way to spread the word on overclocking, HWBOT offers the following ways for you to make exposure to your or your team's capabilities.

Leagues
- Pro OC League
- Xtreme Overclockers League
- Enthusiast League
- Teams League
- Hardware Masters
[*]Competitions
- Sponsored online competitions (eg: Gigabyte comps)
- Sponsored online qualifiers for live competitions (eg: MOA qualifiers)
- HWBOT user-based competitions (eg: HWBOT OC Challenges, Fanboy Cup)
- HWBOT team-based competitions (eg: Team Cup)
- HWBOT country-based competitions (eg: Country Cup)
- Community competitions (eg: SF3D competition)
- User vs user/team/world challenges
- (not really hwbot) Live overclocking competitions (eg: GOOC, MOA)
[*]Records
- Benchmark world records
- Global records (eg: 1x CPU wprime)
- Hardware class records (eg: E8600 SuperPI 1M)
- (not hwbot) Futuremark/Catzilla ORB records
[*]Achievements
- Ranking-based (eg: OC King, Prince)
- Hardware-based (eg: LGA1156 king)

As you can see, there's already a very comprehensive list of ways to promote overclocking in general or your personal/team's achievements. We're coming from a situation (back in 2006 or so) where mainly(/only?) the overall benchmark records were looked at and there is definitely a more wider appreciation for overclocking. Even though there's a lot more possibilities to spread the word on overclocking, the hobby has evolved internally (= within the inner circle of overclocking) quite a lot, but not that much externally (= to mainstream audience). I think the key problem our community will have to deal with in the next couple of months/years is figuring out the best way to communicate our passion to the outside world. Adding more ways to create exposure by, for example, setting up a ranking as you suggested will possibly be good for internal enthusiasm but won't change much externally.

In my opinion, what overclocking needs is a transparency and coherency. Not that this is such a great and unique insight - everything needs those - but it's important to repeat this as much as possible. As long as everyone within the community replies differently to the question "what is important in oc?", people who don't have a great understanding of the community will just get lost in the many different OC exposure methods. As people tend to look for simplicity, they then revert to the most simple way to determine what's important for overclocking: PR from vendors. Essentially, because there's a very incoherent voice within the community, the community allows the industry to dictate what's important. Which is always the latest, greatest, most expensive. WE know that's not true, but outsiders don't. Other people have recommended that we should put more focus on the XOC as that would be easier for outsiders to relate to overclocking. But outsiders don't necessarily have great interest in the old hardware - how challenging overclocking them might be. Again, WE know it takes a lot of effort, but the outsiders don't. We could educate, but it would take too much effort to both explain and keep them interested.

Imho, within the community there's quite a great appreciation for what the guys do with older/mainstream hardware. Mainly because within the community we understand how much effort it requires to set for example a #1 result with a HD4870 in 3DMark Vantage or to win one of the HWBOT OC Challenges. That is because, within the community, we experience all this ourselves. Outside the community, people don't experience and therefore appreciate less. Now, because of various reasons I've already covered in the opening post, even what is supposed to be the billboard (targeted to external) for overclocking - "the pros" - isn't catching on. I figure we might have identified why and try to address that with the Cup.

In other words, the biggest problem is the exposure towards the outside world. Now, before we go in a pessimistic spiral and start debating how overclocking is dead and no one cares; people are VERY MUCH interested in overclocking. The best proof you can find at IT events - there's always people hanging out at the xtreme overclocking booth and always coverage from even the mainstream media (even the BBC!). Even within your own local area there are people interested in following up on the overclocking achievements, that's what I notice with the Country Cup at Tones for example. Mainstream sites are interested in overclocking records. But ... we don't present them how it works precisely.

"OC career path"-thought

(sorry, couldn't come up with a better title)

This is a more personal view on overclocking and how it I think it should be structured to gain more interest from 'the outside'. I call it the "oc career path" because it's supposed to represent the way someone evolves over time within the overclocking community.

Types of overclocker
- Global Hero: the famous ones
- Global Participant: participates in global overclocking competitions, pro oc, mainly focusing on competing with industry teams even, but not usually gets to top-5 or 10
- Local Hero: hero amongst local forum members/countrymen because of his overclocking achievements within the team/country
- Extreme participant: is extremely passionate about overclocking, does all sorts of hardware, sometimes extreme, motivates forum members to join the team
- Active participant: does overclocking on a regular basis, but not extreme and usually not with highend hardware
- Ocassional participant: does overclocking, but very lightly and not often
- Fanboy spectator: follows overclocking and actively debates/voices opinion about it
- Spectator: follows overclocking, but not discuss it
[*]Types of platform
- Global
  - Pro OC League/Cup: thé most important overclocking competition - participating is already an honor
  - XOC: the amateur variant of Pro OC, but more appropriate for the more "budget-restraint" (relatively speaking) overclockers
  - EL: the amateur non-extreme variant of XOC
  - Live contests: live overclocking competitions like GOOC and MOA
  [*]Local
  - Team Cup: mostly to get more recruits to join overclocking on your local forum
  - Country Cup: similar, but country based
  - Local competitions: small events to teach how overclocking works and explain how your team is represented within the global world of overclocking

In my opinion, overclocking stands and falls with the level of engagement from the local heros. Who do I think would qualify as local hero (no judgement here, just my personal opinion): you (Rasparthe), IMOG, Rbuass (especially in Brazil), Pizzaman at OCN, Infrared (Bulgaria), etc. There are many others that fit in this list too, please forgive me for not listing all. It doesn't matter how popular the top guns are or how many people are visiting your forum, if the local heros don't push the overclocking it'll not move forward. In that regard my existence - or HWBOT's - is as insignificant as a grain of sand on the beach. HWBOT can essentially deliver the tools for the local heros, but the enthusiasm can only be created by the local heros. (Extreme) Overclocking, as an activity, won't die instantly if the locals don't push, but it'll just be reduced to a mainly industry-dominated "secret oc"/"rediculous resource"/"world record only"-game where the community or enthusiasts have very little effect on.

I've always been of the opinion that overclocking should be a decentralised structure where you have many strong communities coming together on a platform like HWBOT. In a practical sense, it means I prefer enthusiasts to do "many activity on local forum" over "few activity on hwbot forum". From that perspective, I think it's easy to understand why the Pro OC Cup should be with subteams: the idea here is that a local community can explain their overclocking activities as:

Pro OC Cup: this is the creme de la creme of our community competing in the most prestegious competition
Team Cup and Teams League: here we show how strong we are as a community
User Leagues/comps/achievements/...: these are platforms you can use to 'practice', learn more about overclocking, persue records or in general show your fellow overclockers what you can do

Through the exposure generated via the overclocking competitions, a local community could gather interest from local (or global) companies/people to help support small events. By the way, when I'm talking about 'external' or 'the outside' I don't just mean people that are knowledgable or involved with computer hardware. It might as well be something like a local magazine.

I know it's quite difficult to agree on what exactly is important in overclocking ~ difficult to agree what deserves the most attention from the outside world as everyone sort of has a different idea of it. Some will say it should be only global overclocking records (~ 3DMark11 overall), others will say it's the live competitions (~ MOA), others say it's the xtreme amateur league (~ XOC), others say it's the ambient cooling (~ EL), others say it's the Hardware Masters and so on. Usually depending on what users are most involved at. All HWBOT (and me personally since I'm professionally involved) can do is try to maybe offer a consensus on it. Which isn't easy, FYI .

Alright, think I'm done. I could write a couple pages on how my involvement with vendors plays a part in all this, but I think that will be for another time. Not sure if Frederik will be happy I spend so much time on writing this one. Sorry for the long post too, by the way.

rbuass · December 21, 2012

Hi Massman, I would like to tell you something about “how I thing” people and everybody can help the Overclocking to grow up.

Do you know that I often promoted events, classes, championships and trying to spread overclocking to Brazilian people.

http://hwbot.org/forum/showthread.php?t=33054

So, what are we doing right now.

We will have a Brazilian Overclocking Championship at january 19.

That’s will be the second edition.

The first we can see more here:

(attempt this vídeo was made to show to Corsair about the event, and the reason was not to spread overclocking to the public)

But... to show to the public, we got more than 2 milions of visitors in websites, television, magazines and so on... as you can see

So..... the Brazilian Overclocking Championship 2013, will be in X5 Arena (the most importante “Gaming Arena”, famous because often brake records of visitors in their Live Stream.

The event will be covered in Live Stream, by the professional Official Streamers from the biggest gaming events.

To be attractive to the public, the event will be in 2 phases, with $5000 in cash, more 5 x Lucky draws (one per week)

1st phase online:

People can use popular hardware and the guys that the scores is more close to HWBot world record, will go to the finals.

Only popular hardware was allowed (need to be 40 or more valid results from diferente people at HWBot).

That’s the rules (please use Google Traductor)

http://www.blogx5computadores.com.br/topico-oficial-do-campeonato-brasileiro-de-overclocking-2013/

I used X5 Blog, because is one of the most relevant in Brazil, since they had about 380K people in their Facebook.

Facebook is in Brazil a Strong weapon to spread all stuff.

X5 Computadores really believe in us, and did promote lots of overclocking sessions, overclocking events, and shows lots of things about overclocking.

We are doing vídeos with instructions to how to start overclocking and why to overclock the machine, and It will be in their pages in a couple of days.

The overclocking championship 1st phase just in lots of places.

http://www.hardwarebr.com/forum/showthread.php?6199-Dada-a-largada-Campeonato-Brasileiro-de-2013-T%F3pico-Oficial

http://adrenaline.uol.com.br/tecnologia/noticias/14755/comecam-as-inscricoes-para-a-primeira-etapa-do-campeonato-brasileiro-de-overclocking-2013.html

http://www.gamevicio.com/i/noticias/148/148400-2-campeonato-brasileiro-de-overclock-aberto-com-premiacao-de-ate-r-5-000-00/index.html

http://www.criminalcafe.com/showthread.php?10854-Campeonato-Brasileiro-de-Overclocking-2013

http://www.fusion-oc.com/forums/content.php?453-Classificat%C3%B3rias-do-Campeonato-Brasileiro-de-Overclocking-2013

And also in places like PC News, PC Project, X5 Blog, OC magazine, and so on.

Then, to turn still more atractive, we are showing for example, that a GTX 560Ti pushed at 5500 Mhz CPU, 1100 Mhz VGA IN THE AIR, are holding 1st place in 3DMark06 ATM.

The 10 better overclockers will go to the finals (no expenses... all payed), at X5 Arena.

So... at the finals, we will have 10 x exact same machines... watercooled, and the 10 finalist will compete to get one of the 4 places to Extreme.

They will need to show their skill to go to extreme

So... in the same day, the 4 better overclockers, after 3 hours in watercooler, will go to extreme overclocking.

This will be super atractive, because people will can see overclocking like they can do it at home....so...after...can see the max performance at LN2.

This is only one example... also we do events, live sessions, classes, etc.

So... the most importante.

How “I BELIEVE” people can help overclocking to grow?

- We are looking for gaming communities.

Everybody knows thar gamers general have affinity to overclockers... because overclockers are skillers, and considered good knowledge to recommend, to show and so on.

We are doing overclocking sessions in the middle of gaming events as usual...and often explaining to gamers, that they can improve their gaming experience under overclocked machines.

We Always tell about it and you can see for example overclocking even in gaming foruns...

So is important to look for gaming community,

- We are looking for different kind of help.

Not only PC Parts manufacturers are able to help and to be part.

We can look for other thing of help, as banks, mail, Red Bull, White Martins, television, magazines, websites, foruns, resellers, distributors, hotels, universities, etc.

I was sponsored by a importante University in Brazil (Impacta), and this was only na example.

- We need to show that’s overclocking is functional.

We need to show that overclocking can be good to the people.

Not only to improve gaming experience, and to kill gaming lags, but to show that professional can save money, when they use, for example, for vídeo edition and can do the job in less time.

We need to know that people can have most powerful computer with less Money, and we can beat a more expensive machine with less expensive machine (it means spend less Money and get faster machines).

Also we can show sportive overclocking, that is the “fun” overclocking...where people can show in foruns, rankings

And still show the “Extreme”, that’s what we can show the max of the max…and show the max of performance and resistence… and can show amazing LN2 fog in events to call people to see.

Then is the reason we did look for X5 Computadores, for example, and they care to spread and talk about overclocking.

Since they sells lots and lots of computers, it shows they knows about hardware, but we can look for many different companies, and many different way to spread and keep people interested about OC.

So, for me, is a very important reason to be ranked in Hwbot.

How can I ask for some exposure… or ask for some sponsorship to events… or some sponsorship for anything if I have nothing important to show and to prove?

I am not talking “inside” our overclocking community, but talking that when I need to do something, here, is needed to show something.

I can show I am Overclocking Emperor to be reached top 3 in professional league at 2012.. I can show I did brake Records, and I can show it’s the reason I be able to be sponsored.

It can not be important in other countries (I really don’t know), but here, if I have nothing official (real) to show, will be many more hard to prove.

Maybe that’s the reason that people believe in me here to be like “their overclocking representant”… that’s the hwbot powerful.

I believe if each overclocker help just a lit bit, we will be 20….30…40K people talking good stuff about how fun, how important and how good is to KEEP OVERCLOCKING.

Sorry the broken english

George_o/c · December 21, 2012

One of the main reasons I agree with Massman and generally like the whole idea, is that people tend to better understand the concept of competition, than the actual overclocking and benchmarking that's going on. They relate to the competition and get interested far easier. I've had several personal experiences from attending to events, either just by supporting the overclockers by pouring LN2 or by overclocking myself. Eventually, you never have the time to properly get them to understand what exactly is going on there. Even brochures that explain what overclocking is about do not work that good, because only the ones who are incredibly interested will fully read them. Having an OC season will for sure enhance the daily interactions between spectators and overclockers and increase the awareness on overclocking. The pro overclockers will have a fan base that supports them no matter what and maybe in the future we could also see some trades between teams etc.

However, I do have a question. You mentioned that if a pro overclocker at the moment doesn't want to participate in the new Pro OC Cup, will not be included in the rankings. It's perfectly rational, because the rankings will be formed by the results of each pro team and will change every 3 other months (after each season). Even though his results will still be in the database, problem is that since he won't be mentioned in the pro oc league rankings anymore, he may decide to move back to the XOC league, which immediately creates a problem for the non-sponsored XOC overclockers.

In spite of that ^^, I strongly believe that having a Pro OC Cup with seasons will benefit overclocking and enlarge the community. Let's face it, the community has not been increasing in large numbers as it did in the previous years and something needs to be done.

Edited December 21, 2012 by George_o/c

I.M.O.G. · December 22, 2012

Hi Massman, I would like to tell you something about “how I thing” people and everybody can help the Overclocking to grow up.

Your perspective may be different than that of Americans, however in many parts of the world Overclocking has grown up. It was 14 years ago when the first sites came onto the scene for enthusiasts - overclockers.com, anandtech, hardocp, etc.

Now we have every major component manufacturer (who hasn't already closed shop like dfi and abit) catering to the overclocking enthusiast scene, and they further specialize in this segment as time continues, as the market is becoming almost exclusively enthusiast oriented. That could be taken as a positive note, or a negative... Positive as companies recognize enthusiasts as a viable market unlike looking down on them as they did in the past. Negative in many market segments, there is a shrink continuing as more people are interested in commodity devices like smart phones and tablets. As more companies further specialize, they are struggling to be the best, as there isn't as much room as there was in the past in this industry.

The recognition overclocking gets now is a double edged sword. While it seems like a really good thing for the hobby, it is also indicative of a harsher market for the companies that make our toys. In the US, last year crazypc closed up after 10 years in business, and more recently dangerden went under as well. Abit, Soyo, and DFI have bit the dust too. Elpida in there as well. Others I'm forgetting. 3dfx long ago.

Just sharing some perspective, in some respects overclocking is reaching a twilight... In a growing market, it is less common to see businesses folding. As the industry advances, the enthusiasts do make up a larger relative portion of the remaining market.

Also worth noting it isn't a good sign either when leaders of the industry like AMD and Intel totally miss the boat with being on the cutting edge of processor design. The likes of Qualcomm and ARM executed far better on emerging markets. Intel is only just now trying to get into mobile devices.

rbuass · December 22, 2012

In many parts of the world, the things grow up... and in others get down...

It do not mean that Desktop is in the end...

As you can see, one of the most important and emergent marketing is for the gaming PCs.

They lead the sales, and you can see games like League of Legends or DotA2, giving milions of dolars of prizes to the best gamers...and last year got 10 times more money even than Hollywood.

Here we are joining to gaming communities, casemodding ane also enthusiasts, to show, teach, spread, and explain that overclocking can be funcional (to save money to buy best PC with less money, to give better gaming experience, to professional users, to folding teams, to sports and ranking and so on).

"The recognition overclocking gets now is a double edged sword. While it seems like a really good thing for the hobby, it is also indicative of a harsher market for the companies that make our toys. In the US, last year crazypc closed up after 10 years in business, and more recently dangerden went under as well. Abit, Soyo, and DFI have bit the dust too. Elpida in there as well. Others I'm forgetting. 3dfx long ago."

Despite this brands, and for example, Abit, Soyo and DFI closed just lots of time, we can see here domination ASUS, new brands and PC resellers like X5 selling 3000 gaming pcs per month, and lots of companies that never were be in Brazil coming (G.Skill, Team, Cougar, NZXT, Roccat, Steelseries, Sentey, Razer, Corsair and lots and lots more)...

I really don't think is near to the end, and I believe that we still have lots of time for fun... maybe 5...10...20 years.... nobody knows...

The only think is right is that the Desktop marketing will focus to gaming, edition and powerful machines...because in a near future, people that wants a low end pc will look for tablets, smartphones, netbooks, notebooks and so on.

Just ask for the gamers... and let they try to play in a arcade, xbox, ps3, etc... gamers that likes PCs, will keep playing for a long time and hate the idea to change the way to play,

Sorry the bad english

Edited December 22, 2012 by rbuass

|ron · December 22, 2012

Wow, that's a big topic indeed, so let's first say that I've read only about 50%, forgive me if I'm going to say something already said.

Anyway... in the last year, me and my team, we're almost freezed up, because this game simply become "how much cpus can you bin? 500? Ok, you'll probably win everything... you and the others few guys who can have all that ridiculous stuff".

What's the point in competing that way? Here's the answer, it's pointless... it's like competing against yourself, for the glory, your glory, or whatever. The Pro Oc league clearly didn't work imho.

You're talking about spreading the word, increasing the spectators, supporters etc? Ok, hwbot as it is right now, is completely wrong... imagine you're a geek that finds the OC world interesting.. then it comes here, sees what is needed to get in top spots, and he just gets off and bye bye.

So, I'm still trying to understand all the implications of these big news for Rev5, but I think I like the seasonal way hwbot will work in the future.

But again, the problem I was talking, will not be solved.

I was thinking about a possible solution:

- since hwbot is a big database of results, statistics etc, why don't set max admitted frequencies, for every different season?

- for example, 1st season is about 3770K/Z77 board/4GB ram/7970. Ok, hwbot should have the capability to calculate what is the average frequency for 3770K and 7970.

- let's say that this average is 6,3GHz for the cpu and 1,5GHz for the vga. Let's raise that starting point of about 5%, so max tolerated cpu freq will be 6615MHz and the max gpu freq will be 1625MHz

- that way, maybe a little binning is still required, but it's not the only thing needed to get good standings, like it is right now

- this is what I thought about LN2 level, there will be of course other categories with different cooling methods and, of course, different max tolerated frequencies

- for the top guys who still want to show how good is the brand they're working for, in releasing secret bioses, in secret places, with secret 007 agents and bla bla, well they can do it, but in a separate category, not in a "pro league" that implies that the "season league" is a lower category. Being the 1st overclocker in the "season league" must become the "inspiration" for every overclocker (already ockers and new ockers!). So let's the brand fight between themselves on their websites, or on a separate hwbot page.

no offense to the big guys, they put effort in what they do, but I'm really upset of those bunnying scores obtained with hw built to crush hwbot records, everything secret and so on... bunny, I really don't like the way OC is become in the last 2 years.

edit: bunny and bunnying? lol, what a polite moderation

Edited December 22, 2012 by |ron

rbuass · December 22, 2012

I don’t know how Hwbot whant to change something the league, but I have important things to consider.

The Desktop marketing, day by day, are going to focus only to powerful machines.

It means that in few years, we must see few desktops low end, because people will prefer to buy a tablet, smartphone, netbook, notebooks and portables.

Instead the High End Pcs, that focus the huge gaming marketing will still grow... also enthusiast machines to people that need (professional edition, enthusiast, hobbie, etc)... will be the goal to the manufacturers.

So, I agreed Hwbot must be focus to enthusiast league, promote competitions, promote legacy overclocking, nostalgic overclocking with old PC Parts and so on.... but it don’t mean that Hwbot must to kill the Pro Overclockers League.

To do it, will be to kill the Worldwide Overclocking League in a few time.

I believe the Pro Overclockers (at least in my country), is the inspiration to all beginners, to a new overclockers and also to just registered overclockers that likes and keep working to learn day by day.

I know each country is different, some people are more festive (like Brazil), some people are more serious, but the essence of Overclocking keep the same to all.

Also some countries are in more crysis, and some are in better way, because global crysis... so...manufacturers sometimes look fo invest more in emergent than invest in countries that’s in trouble, but the world was always this way.

Sure I agreed to do competitions and challenges around the world, but it don’t means to change completely the rules and the leagues but to remove the Pro Overclockers league will be kill Worldwide League, since the main focus of manufactures is to show the performance of new components, and best performance, and also the target of the most new overclockers, who really will care about OC, will be climbing and is participating for the Pro League.

Also we can noticed that the most that will show the best performance in events, presentations, and so on... will be part of Pro League.

Let’s go think about this way.

1- Pro League Overclockers.

The Pro League Overclockers is the top ranking... where overclockers shows the power of the hardware... the last degree, where all people that really likes overclocking want to be.

But WHY this is PRO???

There are no sense the league be this way.

IMHO, Pro Overclocker must be the top guys, that NEED to have TOP SKILL, to be in the top.

Don’t mind if Andre, Hicookie, Nick, etc has many more hardware and support from manufacturers, they are there because they earn...they have skill enough to be there... also other TOP DOGS (in skill, not in support)...but we can see in the Pro League, people who do not actively participate, and also should not be considered top... but we can other kind of overclockers in Por League right now.

Instead we can see Top Overclocker like Aristidis (my example), that has knowledge enough to be considered Pro Overclocker.

What about people (some Pro) talk about... is unfair to compete with people that has more support is ridiculous,...because I am i the Pro League, and I need to buy all my stuff (I work to Corsair and the only thing I got from Corsair was 2 PSU, SSD and one better RAM kit... and Kingpin, Andre, etc... work direct to vendors.... please understant that Master Kingping deserve to be there...also Andre... they are there because they fought to be there...and regardless I have so far support than Andre and Kingpin, I need to fight with many less weapons, but this is fair (FIXED...NOT FAIR...BUT THE ONLY WAY AND WILL NOT CHANGE)... (....is impossible to be 100% fair...as all we know).

Also I need to buy my own very expensive LN2... my videocards that I can not kill... and MAIN... I never can afford to compete multi videocards (you can check is rare I post more than 1 videocard...because I can not afford, this is my problem and I am not complaining about it and its all right).

So I mean to change the Pro League, and KEEP the Pro League to a selected skilled overclockers, that earned enough achievements to be there (Hwbot need to decide about it).

Its decision to HWBot to separate the ranking and also the scores...and system pontuation.

2- Overclockers League

How can we be better Overclocker League.

What is the inspiration of a new guy that is beginner in XOC league?

To climb the degrees, step by step to go to the top.

Let’s go... when this guy entering to the XOC League, his results will be compared to Aristidis, Sofos, Tolsty... great overclockers.... so... he should lose interest because it is far from its goal.

To me, is quite obvious we need to divide the League into three, or at least into 2 parts.

For Example:

Extreme Overclockers League A –

Extreme Overclockers League B –

Extreme Overclockers League C –

A - For the best overclockers in extreme overclokers league... so... the results, will no more compete with the XOC overclockers begineers...

It will encourage the new XOC guys to climb, because their results will be more near...and looks more strong enough to fight inside his category.

Following this idea, Extreme Overclockers A results can be together Pro League or no... Hwbot and people here can decide.

What I mean is that we need to divide de league, to encourage people to be near to change to next league....and climb and climb... to be better.

3- Enthusiast League

To Enthusiast League, we can do the same....divide the league.... and is still more important, because there are many more people in enthusiast league than XOC League.

Maybe 3 different degrees to Enthusiast and 2 different to XOC... Hwbot can decide... I am just giving what I THINK IS BETTER,

About some rules:

C’mon people.

- Hardware sharing rules is simply ridiculous today.

How can hwbot punish someone, if can not prove nothing?

What is the problem if I borrow a CPU to a friend???.... if he can take better score than me?

What is the difference if I sell a CPU (or VGA)...or if I borrow?

Don’t will need the overclockers work and skill to get the score?

So... what is the problem?.... if someone get good score ONLY BECAUSE he got a good cpu from a friend.... if he worked to get his scores.

I remember at MOA 2012 I was forced to prove that me and Gnidaol do not share hardware....NOBODY could prove nothing against and we still need to prove in a Live Stream (sorry, but it was very bad).

To scrutinize and be alert to SCORE SHARING... that is the problem.

Score sharing must be punished hard... but hardware sharing still pathetic to me.

There are no justify why a friend can not use my hardware....if he will need to work...and to me...there are no difference to buy... to borrow...

So... the suggestion is ONLY GET THE BEST SCORE BY TEAM...no more 2 better scores, but only the best (to Team Leagues).

- About the points.

People...

How can someone get 60 global points to compete alone (or almost alone) ?

Also this can happen without no one mhz more overclocking.

How can a new CPU get points and more points (CPUZ, PCMArk, Pifast, Spi 1, spi32, WP 1024, Wp32)...only to compete alone????

Thats still more pathetic in the league.

My propose is.

Do not earn no one point, if there are no at least 10 different results from 10 different overclockers (I prefer 20... but people can consider very high number).

If hardware is not popular enough to have at leats 10 scores...it can not earn points...and that’s all.

How can people win lots of points with 1, 2, 3, 4 videocards in the same benchmark???... Don’t hwbot encourage all people to have same chances???... so...if the overclocker earned his best to 3Dmark11 (for example)... only will get his better score.

I am not talking that this rule is mandatory... BUT... since even in Pro League there are overclockers with many more support... people in all league with less support and less conditions will be more chance and SURE...will be more fair to all.

(this not mean tha Wprime will be the same...because is different models CPU instead 4 way is 4 times SAME card)

To new hardware, my proposal is:

Only will get points after 2 months launched.

Why?

Because, for example, if a GTX 780 is launched, only very few people will have the new hardware fast.

So, we will see this guys braking world records without need to work... the same when HD 7970 was launched and killed the GTX 580 scores...

So.. only will get the points 2 months after...and every overclocker will be time enough to show and to put their scores.

It will prevent people climbing high without no one effort, only because they could get the card (or the CPU) before all.

This is too simply to understand why... people can send the scores...but it only will amount points 2 months after (I supposed 2 months... but Hwbot can evaluate if is 1 month...3 months... 40 days.... eg)

To create Nvidia and AMD separate scores.

This will encourage people to look for more hardware, with friends, to buy, or other way, to have more results ans scores...

Is public, for example, that Nvidia is killing to 3Dmark06, but worst to 3Dmark03.

Thats different platforms... remember... This is not mandatory... IS ONLY A SUGGESTION TO THINK ABOUT... we can think the same to AMD x Intel... I keep as suggestion

Now...about local competitions...hwbot challenges and so on.... I recommend to make public and look for the best ... to get more people...

I think is a great idea to join the people around the world... and we can look for good prizes from manufacturers.

Sorry the long post and bad english, but since I am sure I am very participative in Hwbot, I also believe something I writed hete is too important to think.

I can be 100% right...50%...or even 100% wrong... but I am involved in the overclocking marketing and very active, I believe my opinion can be considered.

Best wishes and Christmas for all.

Edited December 22, 2012 by rbuass

|ron · December 22, 2012

I simply disagree when you say that is fair to compete against people who receives everything they want, in big quantities, and bioses or sw or whatever, never can leave their hands. This is not fair, it's against all types of competitions, it's simply advertising in another form, and it's time to say stop.

The gaming world is far far bigger, why?

Let's think about a new guy who discovers hardcore gaming to be his passion... he goes as a spectator to various events, and he can see the top guys: the moment he decides "I want to become a badass starcraft guy too", he knows at least 2 things:

- he has to buy a good pc, let's say 1000euros

- he has to train, train, train and again train alone and with his team, to improve teamwork, strategies etc...

- finish, that is what is needed, a big amount of passion, time, and skills.

In overclock it's the same, for the last 2 points. But, for the first, that 1000euros become 50.000euros or a bunnying amount of money that it's truly ridiculous.

So, you say it's fair? Well, maybe, but me and a big part of that community, will probably exit this "hobby" sooner or later, and we'll leave you (not talking to you rbuass, I'm talking in general, in a hypothetic situation ) and 10 or 20 guys scattered around the world, benching your superduper secret hardware to reach incredible and totally pointless scores.

Is THIS what you really want?

Edited December 22, 2012 by |ron

Mafio · December 22, 2012

I simply disagree when you say that is fair to compete against people who receives everything they want, in big quantities, and bioses or sw or whatever, never can leave their hands. This is not fair, it's against all types of competitions, it's simply advertising in another form, and it's time to say stop.
The gaming world is far far bigger, why?

Let's think about a new guy who discovers hardcore gaming to be his passion... he goes as a spectator to various events, and he can see the top guys: the moment he decides "I want to become a badass starcraft guy too", he knows at least 2 things:

- he has to buy a good pc, let's say 1000euros

- he has to train, train, train and again train alone and with his team, to improve teamwork, strategies etc...

- finish, that is what is needed, a big amount of passion, time, and skills.

In overclock it's the same, for the last 2 points. But, for the first, that 1000euros become 50.000euros or a bunnying amount of money that it's truly ridiculous.

So, you say it's fair? Well, maybe, but me and a big part of that community, will probably exit this "hobby" sooner or later, and we'll leave you (not talking to you rbuass, I'm talking in general, in a hypothetic situation ) and 10 or 20 guys scattered around the world, benching your superduper secret hardware to reach incredible and totally pointless scores.

Is THIS what you really want?

that ^

when I look at the PRO league I see exactly what overclocking is: a joke.

average joes are not anymore interested in participating/following extreme overclocking because results made by the PROs are by no means replicable.

just go read the comments about MOA, GOOC, etc. etc. in every non extreme overclocking related forum and see what people think of extreme overclocking.

hwbot and the so-called-PROs alongside with the manufactures killed overclocking.

rbuass · December 22, 2012

I think you don't understand what I mean.

It will not be fair and never will be fair,

For ever, will be people with many more support and conditions...but they are just there...and we can not simply remove Kingpin, Andre, the top dogs and and the most sponsored guys from there....because they are there because they fought to be there....they are really good marketing to the manufacturers....they can show the highest level... they inspire new generations to want to growth...and so on

There are 2 different things...

Pro because they are skilled... so...each one, that have enough skill to be there...that needs to fight to get support...to get hardware and so on... (there are no way...nobody and no one brand will provide me a plenty of motherboards, VGAs and CPUs...but I still want and need to be there at Pro Legue.... because I spent lots of effort to be there, and I just teach, encourage, inspired lots of guys here to do the same....

Instead..."to be a lit bit more fair"... limit the results as 1 per benchmark...so will be easier to anyone to compete agains people that have lots and lots of samples to binning and to compete...

About to divide the leagues... about the rules... about all... I just bring my opinion... and I really believe this way we aill help a lot the overclocking because it will change for all.

Sure...no one need to agree with me... each one will be own opinion about this... so...I bring to people discuss and to try to find the best for us.

Edited December 22, 2012 by rbuass

|ron · December 22, 2012

Sure...no one need to agree with me... each one will be own opinion about this... so...I bring to people discuss and to try to find the best for us.

yeah, that's for sure

The only thing on which we do not agree is the first "people with more access to resources was there, is there and will be there".

I can't accept that: people was there and is there, yes. Is this a good thing for the companies, to use them as marketing? Yes. Is this good for the oc panorama? NO.

So, if there's a problem, I'm used to wipe it out, maybe not in "bulldozer mode", but this thing has to be solved. And it's not a menace, it's the course we've all taken, and I would be truly disappointed is something like hwbot will disappear for those silly reasons.

And another thing on which you're wrong is: do you remember 5 years back how the scene was?

It was many more fragmented, but every single guy with patience, passion and a minimum of money, could aspire to reach top scores, because there were guys like hipro and many others that were clearly a step above the others, but they used to share the knowledge.

how many times I followed hipro in his incredible vmod threads? And how many times I didn't have the balls to solder this bunnying tiny things because I didn't have the money to buy another one, in case of burning it?

THAT was my limit, but with practice and a small amount of money, I could have reached the top spots because I had all the instruments needed.

Nowadays, ask elmor to give you his secret bla bla software, or ask andreyang to buy a cpu at a time, wait 3 weeks, change it, try another one ecc, instead of binning 100pcs at a time.

No they can't, because it's all marketing, not replicable by other guys, in no case, and for this reason, totally pointless.

So, the question, prior to talk about how to organize rankings and bla bla, is: hwbot should become the center of all oc related activities from here to the future, or should become an advertising page for the brands?

The way we're going, as of now and without changes, is the second one.

The problem here is that there is a lack of "lateral thinking", we need to watch what's happening around us, comparing oc to gaming for instance.

I can tell that in Italy, the oc-scene is almost gone, and everybody complains about the same points, the ones I brought there

I'm not used to let the things go and complain without doing something to take it all to the attention of the bosses (richbastard, pieter and the mods, in our case), with some solution perhaps.

Edited December 22, 2012 by |ron

K404 · December 22, 2012

Pro OC seasons......

What if some of the stages were limited to air/water and runs had to be verified with VIDEO of the environment, cooling and score on-screen?

New variety in hardware, new variety in cooling.

I've been thinking of suggesting video-verification for a while, maybe this is a good time to say it

rbuass · December 22, 2012

Iron...

About it and your way of think

"The only thing on which we do not agree is the first "people with more access to resources was there, is there and will be there".

Please refer to "you"... so the correct is "The only thing on which "I" do not agree, and not "The only thing on which we do not agree".

I really don't think and do not believe is a good way to remove, or change, the great work the Top Dogs (Andre, Hicookie, Nick, SF3D and the master made to spread the best of overclocking... to show about the max performance.

To me... and for lots and lots of brazilian people... it inspired people to give their better to learn and to be better.

I can talk about me...that in the beginning did try to follow the best of Shamino...and you know... looks for Shamino don't worry about any league because he do not need to show nothing...he was just considered a great master.

Also I do not want to see all my work and my effort be losed...

So... I accept your opinion is not the same than the mine, but please talk only about you.

I can not talk about others... only about me...

P.S. Elmor get the MSI secrets... Andre get Asus secrets... they are sponsored...or they are rich... so what is the problem???....how can you tell its forbidden???... Only because 99% of the guys can not have the same, is not the reason to remove what they earned...and also... Elmor is there because he deserve...he won 2 x MOA...he is a great overclocker with lots of knowledge...and even a very nice people...if people can not be in the same place, is not reason to complain about it... give more effort and dedication...and possible some day you can be there,

P.S. 2 - Don't forget that hwbot needs help from the manufacturers to keep alive, to do events, to show the newest, to all.... the way you told "hwbot should become the center of all oc related activities from here to the future, or should become an advertising page for the brands?"... I can tell you that's really important to hwbot and to all to be by side of manufacturers... that's my opinion

Edited December 22, 2012 by rbuass

Mafio · December 22, 2012

P.S. 2 - Don't forget that hwbot needs help from the manufacturers to keep alive, to do events, to show the newest, to all.... the way you told "hwbot should become the center of all oc related activities from here to the future, or should become an advertising page for the brands?"... I can tell you that's really important to hwbot and to all to be by side of manufacturers... that's my opinion

we don't get new people into overclocking by showing them meaningless scores made with unreleased hardware or uber cherry picked samples.

that's why normal people is loosing interest in following extreme overclocking.

p.s. I think you misinterpreted what Iron said.

he was saying that you two disagree on "people with more access to resources was there, is there and will be there".

he thinks we should draw a line at some point while you think PROs have the right to be here and do what they do because they earned their position.

he wasn't putting words in your mount.

|ron · December 22, 2012

Exactly, sorry rbuass for me not being clear on that point

And I never said nor thought that elmor, kingpin, shamino or other guys didn't earn the position they've got today.

The problem is that, today, they're not helping the community to grow. It's not their fault, it's our fault as a community, to not have strict rules and limits.

And, as I already said, if today there still is a community where we can speak and gather around a common interest, and the top guys can still do incredible results, in a year, or 2 or 3 years, what about all that?

At that point, what will be the brands interest in supporting the OC by releasing custom VGAs, super mainboards etc, if nobody cares about overclocking?

I'm talking about changing NOW what will be too late to to change "tomorrow", when all will be dead.

Anyway, what's the other guys thought about all this? Me and mafio, we are truly the only 2 guys that see a big threat for the future of competitive oclocking? I hope not!

knopflerbruce · December 22, 2012

I don’t know how Hwbot whant to change something the league, but I have important things to consider.
The Desktop marketing, day by day, are going to focus only to powerful machines.

It means that in few years, we must see few desktops low end, because people will prefer to buy a tablet, smartphone, netbook, notebooks and portables.

Instead the High End Pcs, that focus the huge gaming marketing will still grow... also enthusiast machines to people that need (professional edition, enthusiast, hobbie, etc)... will be the goal to the manufacturers.

So, I agreed Hwbot must be focus to enthusiast league, promote competitions, promote legacy overclocking, nostalgic overclocking with old PC Parts and so on.... but it don’t mean that Hwbot must to kill the Pro Overclockers League.

To do it, will be to kill the Worldwide Overclocking League in a few time.

I believe the Pro Overclockers (at least in my country), is the inspiration to all beginners, to a new overclockers and also to just registered overclockers that likes and keep working to learn day by day.

I know each country is different, some people are more festive (like Brazil), some people are more serious, but the essence of Overclocking keep the same to all.

Also some countries are in more crysis, and some are in better way, because global crysis... so...manufacturers sometimes look fo invest more in emergent than invest in countries that’s in trouble, but the world was always this way.

Sure I agreed to do competitions and challenges around the world, but it don’t means to change completely the rules and the leagues but to remove the Pro Overclockers league will be kill Worldwide League, since the main focus of manufactures is to show the performance of new components, and best performance, and also the target of the most new overclockers, who really will care about OC, will be climbing and is participating for the Pro League.

Also we can noticed that the most that will show the best performance in events, presentations, and so on... will be part of Pro League.

Let’s go think about this way.

1- Pro League Overclockers.

The Pro League Overclockers is the top ranking... where overclockers shows the power of the hardware... the last degree, where all people that really likes overclocking want to be.

But WHY this is PRO???

There are no sense the league be this way.

IMHO, Pro Overclocker must be the top guys, that NEED to have TOP SKILL, to be in the top.

Don’t mind if Andre, Hicookie, Nick, etc has many more hardware and support from manufacturers, they are there because they earn...they have skill enough to be there... also other TOP DOGS (in skill, not in support)...but we can see in the Pro League, people who do not actively participate, and also should not be considered top... but we can other kind of overclockers in Por League right now.

Instead we can see Top Overclocker like Aristidis (my example), that has knowledge enough to be considered Pro Overclocker.

What about people (some Pro) talk about... is unfair to compete with people that has more support is ridiculous,...because I am i the Pro League, and I need to buy all my stuff (I work to Corsair and the only thing I got from Corsair was 2 PSU, SSD and one better RAM kit... and Kingpin, Andre, etc... work direct to vendors.... please understant that Master Kingping deserve to be there...also Andre... they are there because they fought to be there...and regardless I have so far support than Andre and Kingpin, I need to fight with many less weapons, but this is fair (FIXED...NOT FAIR...BUT THE ONLY WAY AND WILL NOT CHANGE)... (....is impossible to be 100% fair...as all we know).

Also I need to buy my own very expensive LN2... my videocards that I can not kill... and MAIN... I never can afford to compete multi videocards (you can check is rare I post more than 1 videocard...because I can not afford, this is my problem and I am not complaining about it and its all right).

So I mean to change the Pro League, and KEEP the Pro League to a selected skilled overclockers, that earned enough achievements to be there (Hwbot need to decide about it).

Its decision to HWBot to separate the ranking and also the scores...and system pontuation.

2- Overclockers League

How can we be better Overclocker League.

What is the inspiration of a new guy that is beginner in XOC league?

To climb the degrees, step by step to go to the top.

Let’s go... when this guy entering to the XOC League, his results will be compared to Aristidis, Sofos, Tolsty... great overclockers.... so... he should lose interest because it is far from its goal.

To me, is quite obvious we need to divide the League into three, or at least into 2 parts.

For Example:

Extreme Overclockers League A –

Extreme Overclockers League B –

Extreme Overclockers League C –

A - For the best overclockers in extreme overclokers league... so... the results, will no more compete with the XOC overclockers begineers...

It will encourage the new XOC guys to climb, because their results will be more near...and looks more strong enough to fight inside his category.

Following this idea, Extreme Overclockers A results can be together Pro League or no... Hwbot and people here can decide.

What I mean is that we need to divide de league, to encourage people to be near to change to next league....and climb and climb... to be better.

3- Enthusiast League

To Enthusiast League, we can do the same....divide the league.... and is still more important, because there are many more people in enthusiast league than XOC League.

Maybe 3 different degrees to Enthusiast and 2 different to XOC... Hwbot can decide... I am just giving what I THINK IS BETTER,

About some rules:

C’mon people.

- Hardware sharing rules is simply ridiculous today.

How can hwbot punish someone, if can not prove nothing?

What is the problem if I borrow a CPU to a friend???.... if he can take better score than me?

What is the difference if I sell a CPU (or VGA)...or if I borrow?

Don’t will need the overclockers work and skill to get the score?

So... what is the problem?.... if someone get good score ONLY BECAUSE he got a good cpu from a friend.... if he worked to get his scores.

I remember at MOA 2012 I was forced to prove that me and Gnidaol do not share hardware....NOBODY could prove nothing against and we still need to prove in a Live Stream (sorry, but it was very bad).

To scrutinize and be alert to SCORE SHARING... that is the problem.

Score sharing must be punished hard... but hardware sharing still pathetic to me.

There are no justify why a friend can not use my hardware....if he will need to work...and to me...there are no difference to buy... to borrow...

So... the suggestion is ONLY GET THE BEST SCORE BY TEAM...no more 2 better scores, but only the best (to Team Leagues).

- About the points.

People...

How can someone get 60 global points to compete alone (or almost alone) ?

Also this can happen without no one mhz more overclocking.

How can a new CPU get points and more points (CPUZ, PCMArk, Pifast, Spi 1, spi32, WP 1024, Wp32)...only to compete alone????

Thats still more pathetic in the league.

My propose is.

Do not earn no one point, if there are no at least 10 different results from 10 different overclockers (I prefer 20... but people can consider very high number).

If hardware is not popular enough to have at leats 10 scores...it can not earn points...and that’s all.

How can people win lots of points with 1, 2, 3, 4 videocards in the same benchmark???... Don’t hwbot encourage all people to have same chances???... so...if the overclocker earned his best to 3Dmark11 (for example)... only will get his better score.

I am not talking that this rule is mandatory... BUT... since even in Pro League there are overclockers with many more support... people in all league with less support and less conditions will be more chance and SURE...will be more fair to all.

(this not mean tha Wprime will be the same...because is different models CPU instead 4 way is 4 times SAME card)

To new hardware, my proposal is:

Only will get points after 2 months launched.

Why?

Because, for example, if a GTX 780 is launched, only very few people will have the new hardware fast.

So, we will see this guys braking world records without need to work... the same when HD 7970 was launched and killed the GTX 580 scores...

So.. only will get the points 2 months after...and every overclocker will be time enough to show and to put their scores.

It will prevent people climbing high without no one effort, only because they could get the card (or the CPU) before all.

This is too simply to understand why... people can send the scores...but it only will amount points 2 months after (I supposed 2 months... but Hwbot can evaluate if is 1 month...3 months... 40 days.... eg)

To create Nvidia and AMD separate scores.

This will encourage people to look for more hardware, with friends, to buy, or other way, to have more results ans scores...

Is public, for example, that Nvidia is killing to 3Dmark06, but worst to 3Dmark03.

Thats different platforms... remember... This is not mandatory... IS ONLY A SUGGESTION TO THINK ABOUT... we can think the same to AMD x Intel... I keep as suggestion

Now...about local competitions...hwbot challenges and so on.... I recommend to make public and look for the best ... to get more people...

I think is a great idea to join the people around the world... and we can look for good prizes from manufacturers.

Sorry the long post and bad english, but since I am sure I am very participative in Hwbot, I also believe something I writed hete is too important to think.

I can be 100% right...50%...or even 100% wrong... but I am involved in the overclocking marketing and very active, I believe my opinion can be considered.

Best wishes and Christmas for all.

I don't think the HWBot definition of being a "Pro" is directly related to skill, and I think it should be that way. It would be ridiculously unfair to be promoted against your will because you achieve good results. In most other real life situations it's related to financial gains in some way, for example a professional soccer player is a soccer player who plays soccer for a living. Amateurs don't, if anything they get some cash to cover travelling expenses maybe. In between you've got the semi-pros, which are hard to define properly.

We've already got THREE leagues, plus HW masters, which should be enough for most overclockers. If you're a noob you should have realistic goals. We've got top-xxx achievements that work kinda like leagues (those who reached certain levels are listed, others not - not to mention all the other skill-related achievements, cups and medal count for example).

The problem with borrowing a CPU from a friend is that why you borrow it is not really relevant. Like, if I borrow Andre's best chip because I'm too lazy to bin myself is no different than if you borrow one from a friend because you do not have the money for a new chip - and allowing this would mean that cherry samples would be used by many members within a team. It would be easier for poor ocers because of less expenses, but the same rules must apply to rich overclockers, too - so if you can do it in your team, we must be allowed to do the same in Team PURE. End result: the team with the best binned chip(s) wins.

The obscure ranking points will be fixed in the next revision, but not as much as you want to (and from benching in such rankings for many years posting thousands of scores my experience says that your limit of 10/20 subs before points are rewarded is absolutely wrong - often it's very hard to get top spots in obscure rankings, people fight hard for those points even when the number of benchers is low). It's also wrong when you look at other rankings, You need no skill at all to get 10++ points per benchmark in popular categories. By your same logic those scores should not get any points either.

We've already had the multi-GPU discussion, and the "grace period" of new hardware had a poll somewhere. Nearly nobody thought this was a good idea, and I agree. You can save up cash for the release, and import it if necessary. If not, just accept the fact that you will drop a few rankings in the first month or so after the release. Huge releases don't happen often anyway, so it's not really a huge problem.

rbuass · December 22, 2012

I don't think the HWBot definition of being a "Pro" is directly related to skill, and I think it should be that way. It would be ridiculously unfair to be promoted against your will because you achieve good results. In most other real life situations it's related to financial gains in some way, for example a professional soccer player is a soccer player who plays soccer for a living. Amateurs don't, if anything they get some cash to cover travelling expenses maybe. In between you've got the semi-pros, which are hard to define properly.

I don't think you are correct...and I think the only way to be promoted is to deserve...so to me...the only way correct to be part of Pro League is to have skill enough to be there.

We've already got THREE leagues, plus HW masters, which should be enough for most overclockers. If you're a noob you should have realistic goals. We've got top-xxx achievements that work kinda like leagues (those who reached certain levels are listed, others not - not to mention all the other skill-related achievements, cups and medal count for example).

I am not talking 3 Leagues...I am talking a new Extreme Overclocker can not be together Aristidis, Tolsty, Sofos1990... because they will be so far...and will be less encouraged to fight to give their better (IMHO... I am talking to divide Enthusiast and XOC in more parts will get the overclockers near next step...so encouraged to climb one more degree.)

The problem with borrowing a CPU from a friend is that why you borrow it is not really relevant. Like, if I borrow Andre's best chip because I'm too lazy to bin myself is no different than if you borrow one from a friend because you do not have the money for a new chip - and allowing this would mean that cherry samples would be used by many members within a team. It would be easier for poor ocers because of less expenses, but the same rules must apply to rich overclockers, too - so if you can do it in your team, we must be allowed to do the same in Team PURE. End result: the team with the best binned chip(s) wins.

So what is the difference???

Andre can buy 1000 CPUs and find the better...so...he sells the CPU to me...and do not tell, and ask me....never tell nobody I did sell you the CPU...... Bingo... I can tell I am a lucky guy... Please...if nobody can prove... there are no reason...and also...and "if I get better score with his CPU???... and one more... do you really believe people don't borrow good CPUs and VGAs???... people will have many more hardware to bench FOR SURE

The obscure ranking points will be fixed in the next revision, but not as much as you want to (and from benching in such rankings for many years posting thousands of scores my experience says that your limit of 10/20 subs before points are rewarded is absolutely wrong - often it's very hard to get top spots in obscure rankings, people fight hard for those points even when the number of benchers is low). It's also wrong when you look at other rankings, You need no skill at all to get 10++ points per benchmark in popular categories. By your same logic those scores should not get any points either.

Mine opinion is that is non sense to get points competing alone...or agains with 2 or 3.

Obscure ranking points to me is the most unfair way to get boints...

So... people will prefer to look for obscure hardware and nothing change...

So... I think 10 is still few people... but 10 is better than 1.

We've already had the multi-GPU discussion, and the "grace period" of new hardware had a poll somewhere. Nearly nobody thought this was a good idea, and I agree. You can save up cash for the release, and import it if necessary. If not, just accept the fact that you will drop a few rankings in the first month or so after the release. Huge releases don't happen often anyway, so it's not really a huge problem.

I can not understand why people convinced that is fair to see people that can get 20 videocards....bench 1, 2, 3, 4 VGAs... and get scores with all... is more fair than just consider one of the best scores.

The reason this was discussed before...not mean this can not change...

For me and for many more people... will be better and I am sure MANY MORE people bench single VGA than multi cards....

We can see plenty of examples in our continent (I am not talking about country, but continent)... who in south america plays multi card???... no one I think.

I respect your opinion, but please let people think and discuss about what I writed.

Don't use phrases like this:

"ridiculously unfair to be promoted against your will because you achieve good results"

to force people to think like you... I really think the Pro League is important,...and I really think all things I writed will help the overclocking...

I don't know how it works in your country, but I can tell you I know how it works in my country.

To me, the objective of the league is to join the people by overclocking affinity, and sure, to measure the quality (skill, knowledge).

All leagues work the same...

Boxe, Tenis, Football... all leagues looks for rank the best of the best....so I don't understand why did not promote the overclockers.

If Hwbot cut the Pro League, at least about me,I can warranty ...after to fight a lot to do a good job to spread, teach and deffend the overclocking art, I will give up all.

Let people think about this.

Best regards

Edited December 22, 2012 by rbuass

Schenckel bros · December 22, 2012

OMG, I can see completely no sense things here.

To end the pro league is the same that end the Formula 1, because people only can run Kart.

We (me and my brother) started to overclocking after to follow rbuass, and what is our inspiration, for sure, is guys like Kingpin, Shamino, TiN, and the best OCCkers.

For now, we are the 2nd ranked in Brazil (extreme Overclockers), and our target, for sure, is to go to Pro League.

We have no money (no money...is no money... we are very simply guys... we don't have car... we don't have own home... we can not afford LN2 if is not shared... we can not buy expensive cards and CPUs...and when we bought...need to use... get the max and after sell).

Even this way, is our dream and is the reason we are learning and learning... to some day can go to Pro League.

After all we just do... today... we just can get some parts to reviews (our reviews was famous in Brazil)...then...some brands send us some things (sometime GB send one motherboard...sometime Zotac send a videocard... sometime Team send a SSD... etc).

For us, we like to play 8600GT, GTX 550Ti, Hd4850, Q6600... etc...and low end...we like...to play and to joke with cheap hardware... we can hardmod cards... and play...get excellent scores...

But our main focus is really to see the highest performance is possible...and we love all times we have an opportunity to play the highest end hardware as possible (GTX 680, HD 7970, 3770K, etc).

I can not understand how some people (that follow, that do, that loves overclocking), can do not mind and do not worry about monster scores like the Global World Records.

When we join about 20 guys in our teamspeak to talk about this...all were unanimous opinion.

Everyone would love to be great overclockers, could one day be sponsored by great companies and join the Pro league because we have knowledge enough.

That's the target for all.

We believe that one day, we will get there.

Then we + agreed rbuass

Best regards and Christmas for the overclockers.

jacson Schenckel and Cleiton Schenckel

|ron · December 22, 2012

OMG, I can see completely no sense things here.
To end the pro league is the same that end the Formula 1, because people only can run Kart.

Your example speaks for itself: in F1 there are strict rules on what is and what is not permitted, there are engine limits, aerodynamics limits and so on... with optimizations, you can squeeze out a few more HPs, by having a better KERS, a better engine,but the differences aren't that bigger.

In fact, in order to have a common level of performances between teams, a few years ago FIA decided to set those rules, because there was a team (Ferrari) which was winning everything since 10years, because they could have infinite budgets to do R&D, killing every other player in game, and the people interest in that sport was rapidly declining because there was no competition.

And that is exactly what I'm saying, so thanks for your example.

Ferrari wants to build an engine which can produce 2500hp? They surely can, and they can demonstrate it as a marketing claim, inviting journalists etc... but they can't use it in F1. Simple as that.

Mafio · December 22, 2012

OMG, I can see completely no sense things here.
To end the pro league is the same that end the Formula 1, because people only can run Kart.

We (me and my brother) started to overclocking after to follow rbuass, and what is our inspiration, for sure, is guys like Kingpin, Shamino, TiN, and the best OCCkers.

For now, we are the 2nd ranked in Brazil (extreme Overclockers), and our target, for sure, is to go to Pro League.

We have no money (no money...is no money... we are very simply guys... we don't have car... we don't have own home... we can not afford LN2 if is not shared... we can not buy expensive cards and CPUs...and when we bought...need to use... get the max and after sell).

Even this way, is our dream and is the reason we are learning and learning... to some day can go to Pro League.

After all we just do... today... we just can get some parts to reviews (our reviews was famous in Brazil)...then...some brands send us some things (sometime GB send one motherboard...sometime Zotac send a videocard... sometime Team send a SSD... etc).

For us, we like to play 8600GT, GTX 550Ti, Hd4850, Q6600... etc...and low end...we like...to play and to joke with cheap hardware... we can hardmod cards... and play...get excellent scores...

But our main focus is really to see the highest performance is possible...and we love all times we have an opportunity to play the highest end hardware as possible (GTX 680, HD 7970, 3770K, etc).

I can not understand how some people (that follow, that do, that loves overclocking), can do not mind and do not worry about monster scores like the Global World Records.

When we join about 20 guys in our teamspeak to talk about this...all were unanimous opinion.

Everyone would love to be great overclockers, could one day be sponsored by great companies and join the Pro league because we have knowledge enough.

That's the target for all.

We believe that one day, we will get there.

Then we + agreed rbuass

Best regards and Christmas for the overclockers.

jacson Schenckel and Cleiton Schenckel

honestly I - and many others guys - couldn't care less about world record made with unreleased hardware, uber cherry picked stuff and obscure tools.

back in the days when I looked at a world record made by oppainter, macci, hipro5, kingping etc. etc. I thought: "damn, this guys really knows his shit, look at how he modded that card".

today, well, you know how the things are...

I can buy the same card one of the PRO used to set a world record but I don't have the right bios, I don't have afterburner extreme, etc. etc.

someone made a world record with this or that card but the average joe can't even think of doing something similar, so what's the point of advertise something as overclocking friendly and shit when you have to be a corporate guy in order to be able to fully unleash the power of the card?

honestly, I'm still doing extreme overclocking because I get most of my overclocking gear for free, if it wasn't for this I wouldn't be here anymore.

I'm flucking tired of spending money and not being able to compete fairly with everyone because I'm not from taiwan and I don't get any support from brands.

JFYI here in Italy extreme overclocking is dead, all the sites that till 5 years ago were full of overclockers now are dead or are trying to convert themselves because none really care anymore about overclocking.

knopflerbruce · December 22, 2012

I respect your opinion, but please let people think and discuss about what I writed.
Don't use phrases like this:

"ridiculously unfair to be promoted against your will because you achieve good results"

to force people to think like you... I really think the Pro League is important,...and I really think all things I writed will help the overclocking...

I don't know how it works in your country, but I can tell you I know how it works in my country.

To me, the objective of the league is to join the people by overclocking affinity, and sure, to measure the quality (skill, knowledge).

All leagues work the same...

Boxe, Tenis, Football... all leagues looks for rank the best of the best....so I don't understand why did not promote the overclockers.

If Hwbot cut the Pro League, at least about me,I can warranty ...after to fight a lot to do a good job to spread, teach and deffend the overclocking art, I will give up all.

Let people think about this.

Best regards

I do see the problem if the idea is that Kingpin and the other hardcore pros will compete in the XOL again, as well as the NEW Pro League. Is that confirmed? That sounds odd to me.

I also agree to the fact that promotion to the Pro league (whatever shape it has) must have some skill requirement, UNLESS you've got a ton of sponsors. Forced promotion because of skill is still no-no if you ask me. Because of heavy sponsorship - yes.

If arisitids, sofos and others in the XOL need a challenge, they should be allowed to apply for any Pro league/tournament. That solves your issue there. Same with enthusiast league guys who need more challenges. Everyone can push themselves with the current system.

If you buy andre's best chip there's no problem at all - he's not in your team. Passing a chip around to several members within the same team IS an issue. Selling to a teammate is fine - in theory. If the purpose behind the sale is solely to increase team points (and the same chip has been used for submissions already) it's starting to be at least unethical. Difficult to prove, yes - but the rule is there, anyone with some common sense can see that selling a chip from one team member, and then to another, and another and so on is not a good idea when we have the sharing rules we have - it looks very suspiscious. Remember that it's not up to US to prove that HWBot submissions are not legit, it's up to the users to satisfy OUR demand for evidence if there is a problem.

You wont be able to get a high ranking solely based on obscure hardware anymore. A few "free" points perhaps, but again: free points are everywhere. We can't eliminate that part of the game, as it would mean that only maybe the top 5% of scores would get points, which is too little.

I don't force anyone to think like me, but to tell a bencher that "ok ,you have to move a step up because you are too good" is still "VERY VERy VERY VERY" unfair to that person. You should ONLY be forced because of vendor related things.

rbuass · December 22, 2012

Thats I pity Overclocking is death in Italy...

Its not death here...and even more people are looking for.

The most relevant hardware brazilian blog (you can find lots of news about overclocking)

http://www.blogx5computadores.com.br/

The most relevant Reseller Facebook in Brazil

https://www.facebook.com/x5comp

They really focus in Overclocking and gaming...and this is just one example...

I don't want Brazil go to same way to Italy (I don't know about Italy, and I am just following what you told).... So...is the reason I did write all this stuff.

Each country is different...and 5 years ago (as was mentioned)... Brazil did not exist to hardware....very few overclockers and so on...

Now, is possible its our time.... regardless we have expensive Hardware and the highest fees and duties in the world... if we have 20% of people with conditions to look for good hardware it means 40.000.000 of people able to buy good hardware...and it is what the manufacturers are thinking about,

I am sorry to hear that Overclocking ends in Italy... remember great work from Giorgioprimo and others...and there were very good overclocking scenario before.

|ron · December 22, 2012

Thats I pity Overclocking is death in Italy...
Its not death here...and even more people are looking for.

The most relevant hardware brazilian blog (you can find lots of news about overclocking)

http://www.blogx5computadores.com.br/

The most relevant Reseller Facebook in Brazil

https://www.facebook.com/x5comp

They really focus in Overclocking and gaming...and this is just one example...

I don't want Brazil go to same way to Italy (I don't know about Italy, and I am just following what you told).... So...is the reason I did write all this stuff.

Each country is different...and 5 years ago (as was mentioned)... Brazil did not exist to hardware....very few overclockers and so on...

Now, is possible its our time.... regardless we have expensive Hardware and the highest fees and duties in the world... if we have 20% of people with conditions to look for good hardware it means 40.000.000 of people able to buy good hardware...and it is what the manufacturers are thinking about,

I am sorry to hear that Overclocking ends in Italy... remember great work from Giorgioprimo and others...and there were very good overclocking scenario before.

Brazil is truly an emerging power in the world, so I can easily believe that the OC scene is spreading in your country.

But you will face the same problems in a few years (maybe, given that you're 150millions of people and growing, let's say in more than a few years ), it's the normal cycle of things.

In italy, not all is completely dead, but we're close to that point. if 2 or 3 guys are still benching (pixy, sannino and spl) it doesn't mean that it's ok.

Back in 2001 when I started, we were 400/500 guys, in many forums.

Giorgioprimo, Leghorn, Giampa, AlexTA, Dimas, those guys were the pioneers in our country. Today, except for Giorgio, they're all gone, there has been no "generational change", if we could call it like that... and I well explained the motivations before.

I'm still here only because for me oclocking is more than an hobby, I made friends, I achieved good scores with what I had in the past.

But if I was to start ocking today, I really think I would drop everything.

Anyway, I can't understand why it is so difficult to put rules and limitations, like in every sport...

In addition, by applying the limitations I said, there will be no problems about who must go in the PRO league and who can stay in the normal league: andreyang wants to compete with everybody? ok, but at 6,6ghz, not 6,6 vs 7ghz. Everybody could post scores in each of the two leagues, by respecting the rules.

A normal Joe would want to compete with his hardware in the PRO league? Perfect, fine, post a score in the pro league.

It would be very simple, everybody (ok, not everybody, yo'll still need to know how to manage ln2, do vmods, and know how to not destroy something in the first bench session ) could compete with the same gears and the brands will still have their advertising/marketing place in the PRO league where everything is permitted, even videocards built specifically to crush a WR, never to be put on sale.

That would be simple and fair, for us and for the brands, imho.

Edited December 22, 2012 by |ron

rbuass · December 22, 2012

I do see the problem if the idea is that Kingpin and the other hardcore pros will compete in the XOL again, as well as the NEW Pro League. Is that confirmed? That sounds odd to me.

I don't know about the new League...is not my idea and thats a hwbot proposal

I also agree to the fact that promotion to the Pro league (whatever shape it has) must have some skill requirement, UNLESS you've got a ton of sponsors. Forced promotion because of skill is still no-no if you ask me. Because of heavy sponsorship - yes.

I don't believe Nacho, Me, e-Killer has lots of sponsors... also Hazzan, Viss, Phil, others and others... are fighting without bunny in Pro League...so you are not right

If arisitids, sofos and others in the XOL need a challenge, they should be allowed to apply for any Pro league/tournament. That solves your issue there. Same with enthusiast league guys who need more challenges. Everyone can push themselves with the current system.

They must in Pro League because they have skill enough...and this is the way I think and my opinion... this mimimimi to tell that Andre, Kingpin, etc is in the top dog because he has lots of sponsorship, is not truth...he has lots of sponsorship, but give the same hardware for people that do not have good skill...and they will be so far Andre (Andre is only one example.... I can tell about me for example...that always am fighting to get good scores always with just one CPU...one VGA..and binning one by one... and sometimes keep 1...2...3 months without no one good chip....and also...they have sponsorship because they deserved....why 99% from the overclockers have no one sponsorship????...thats the rule in the life...not only for overclocking...some people have more...some have less

If you buy andre's best chip there's no problem at all - he's not in your team. Passing a chip around to several members within the same team IS an issue. Selling to a teammate is fine - in theory. If the purpose behind the sale is solely to increase team points (and the same chip has been used for submissions already) it's starting to be at least unethical. Difficult to prove, yes - but the rule is there, anyone with some common sense can see that selling a chip from one team member, and then to another, and another and so on is not a good idea when we have the sharing rules we have - it looks very suspiscious. Remember that it's not up to US to prove that HWBot submissions are not legit, it's up to the users to satisfy OUR demand for evidence if there is a problem.

So I will ask again... If Andre sell to me, or borrow... what is the problem if he is from my team and IF ONLY WILL ACOUNT ONLY 1 BEST RESULT PER TEAM?... and also... if Andre is from my team and sell me his 7 ghz 3770K... YOU WILL NOT PROVE.... so...this rule is only to hide...and to the people look for good guys that do not do things wrong... looks for a pathetic time where I was forced to prove in live stream me and gnidaol do not share hardware...

To summarize... what is the difference to have a 7 ghz chip... if somebody gave me... is I bought... if my friend borrow... if my mom gave me...

Don't I need to push the chip to the max to get MY SCORES?

You wont be able to get a high ranking solely based on obscure hardware anymore. A few "free" points perhaps, but again: free points are everywhere. We can't eliminate that part of the game, as it would mean that only maybe the top 5% of scores would get points, which is too little.

That's not truth... one member just bring the case here... dhenzjhen is #7 in the world and 90% from his points bring competing with less than 5 chips (the most, less than 2 chips)....and without no one Mhz more.... I do not contest his skill, and he can do a great job... that's not the problem... problem is people earning points competing against... people competing alone with obscure hardare getting 20 + 20 + 20 + 20 points, TO ME, is completely out.

I don't force anyone to think like me, but to tell a bencher that "ok ,you have to move a step up because you are too good" is still "VERY VERy VERY VERY" unfair to that person. You should ONLY be forced because of vendor related things.

Tell me the reason... if hwbot take my way of thing????

Tell me one reason why some overclocker don't want to be considered as Pro....if Pro will be the max target???

Why the best overclockers with more skill will do not want to be competing together the best overclockers?

If the reason is because they have no support... I will tell you.

I DO NOT HAVE SUPPORT.... nacho that's my friend do not have good support.... hazzan my friend do not support... and THE MOST of the overclocker in pro league...even that has support, is so far a great suport.

Maybe one or 2 motherboards... maybe one ES chip... maybe one Videocard... but in my case... I have from support one 2666 Mhz Dom Platinum, 4 SSDs and 2 x AX1200i... thats all Corsair gave me to belong to Pro League.

knopflerbruce

I don't think I am talking bad things to overclocking community.

I really worked hard lots of time to growth overclocking in Brazil, and just asking to consider what I am talking.

Please do not only tell that's not good because is not good.

Also I consider you a very important opinion and very active to Hwbot...so...lets think about it...so... if the most think I am talking wrong things... I will understand.

Best wishes

Edited December 22, 2012 by rbuass

Blue Storm · December 22, 2012

Your example speaks for itself: in F1 there are strict rules on what is and what is not permitted, there are engine limits, aerodynamics limits and so on... with optimizations, you can squeeze out a few more HPs, by having a better KERS, a better engine,but the differences aren't that bigger.
In fact, in order to have a common level of performances between teams, a few years ago FIA decided to set those rules, because there was a team (Ferrari) which was winning everything since 10years, because they could have infinite budgets to do R&D, killing every other player in game, and the people interest in that sport was rapidly declining because there was no competition.

And that is exactly what I'm saying, so thanks for your example.

Ferrari wants to build an engine which can produce 2500hp? They surely can, and they can demonstrate it as a marketing claim, inviting journalists etc... but they can't use it in F1. Simple as that.

Totally agree. Wasn't the idea of overclocking earlier in tweaking, modding and so on? I like competitions where is eg. CPU freq limited instead of "fullout" competitions. Why? Because "fullout" competitions are only about money and sponsorship, nothing more. Who has the best chip he wins. In "limited" competitions you can have best CPU in the world but the main idea of these competitions is in skills, not in money/sponsors. Then you can see who really deserves to be "Pro" because he can beat others with skills (tweaking OS, knowing issues in some benchmarks - eg. 3DMark 01 - etc...).

That's the real overclocking in my opinion.

I don't say that world records made by top dogs like Vince, Andre, HiCookie, etc. should be removed. I know that these guys are high skilled and they really know how to bench but it's also a little unfair towards overclockers who have to buy expensive hardware to do nice scores (and also they need to have good luck in buying) or also towards guys who have some support by some manufacturers but not like "top dogs" (I mean eg. binning 100 chips...) who are often working for GB, EVGA, ASUS, MSI, etc.. I have some support from manufacturers but it's nothing more than one not binned CPU (so I need luck) and older GPU because MSI can't give/borrow me HD 7970 Lightning for extreme overclocking...and because I am poor student I am unable to atack top results

So my suggestion is...why not to divide "fullout" top scores from Pro rankings? and Pro rankings can be based on competitions with some limitations...vendors will have their world records and also they will be able to see in Pro rankings what guys are skilled and should be supported to reach top scores

In Italy extreme overclocking died...in Czech Republic is slowly dying despite our effort (organizing workshops and other events for enthusiasts to get them into extreme overclocking community)...only about four or five guys in Czech Republic are barely active

Edited December 22, 2012 by Blue Storm

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