chuchnit Posted June 7, 2010 Posted June 7, 2010 I agree with this...but I predict that there will be a lot of argument over who/what does or doesn't belong in the "pro" class. The initial split will be the hardest. After that the manufacturers should want their benchers to showcase in the "pro" arena. Quote
Massman Posted June 7, 2010 Posted June 7, 2010 The issue is "should want". It's one thing to split up things at the side of HWBOT, but if this pro league has totally no support from any vendor, it's existence is pointless. After all, if vendors don't like/need the pro league, they can just continue to manipulate amateur rankings. Quote
chuchnit Posted June 7, 2010 Posted June 7, 2010 The issue is "should want". It's one thing to split up things at the side of HWBOT, but if this pro league has totally no support from any vendor, it's existence is pointless. After all, if vendors don't like/need the pro league, they can just continue to manipulate amateur rankings. True true but it seems that the actual benchers will determine this at first. Or the first wave to break over. If 80% of the top guys go over at once, then that will be THE PLACE to compete. Others will follow suit. The manufacturers will need to adjust. Its not their sport anyways. Its the overclockers Quote
Massman Posted June 7, 2010 Posted June 7, 2010 Yes ... but this implies we also need to make it interesting for the overclockers who go there. If it's not interesting, they just won't submit anymore and that would render the league's existence also pointless . I guess it shouldn't be a problem convincing the 'top' guys to move over (at least I hope), but depending on how we define PRO, some smaller guys could be forced to move without them wanting to. Quote
chuchnit Posted June 7, 2010 Posted June 7, 2010 Yes ... but this implies we also need to make it interesting for the overclockers who go there. If it's not interesting, they just won't submit anymore and that would render the league's existence also pointless . I guess it shouldn't be a problem convincing the 'top' guys to move over (at least I hope), but depending on how we define PRO, some smaller guys could be forced to move without them wanting to. Oh I'm not discounting how large of an ordeal this is. It's not like you just code up a pro league and your done. I'm sure through the collective minds of the community this can be done smart. Quote
kow_ciller Posted June 7, 2010 Posted June 7, 2010 Eh, some people get free hardware because they own a website and do reviews without being a "pro". IMO, if you get free hardware and aren't a "pro" you must provide links to reviews of the hardware or some other way of doing things like that. Quote
knopflerbruce Posted June 7, 2010 Posted June 7, 2010 I may get a mobo because I was a part of the event in Hamburg a while ago, but really... I'm no pro. Not even close - I know K8, and some basic Wolfdale stuff, but that's it:) Quote
knopflerbruce Posted June 8, 2010 Posted June 8, 2010 Sounds like a "professional" environment to me. Perhaps if the "reviewed" hardware is not tested under extreme cooling AND is not used for submissions, then "maybe" you're not a "pro" Consideration for another category already seems necessary: "intermediate" ... I receive free hardware but am not considered good enough to be a "pro" ??? Don't know how well this would work. But I don't like it. Receiving free hardware is similar to sponsorship, isn't it? Clearly I'm not a "pro" ... I consider myself your average joe. Now with that said, it would be just as unfair for me to compete in the amature league against someone who just built their first or second overclocking computer. You guys have a tough job ahead you... Good luck trying to keep the "majority" happy You're scenario is completely different imho... no one continuously (at least more than once) sends you hardware for review or testing... However, at the same time, if you are invited to an event ... you obviously posses skills the are not considered "amature" otherwise they could have asked someone down the street from the event to do it I think most rookies know they won't hit the top overnight anyway:p We can't have some ubernoob league as well, that's a bit too much separation. The question here is more about resources, do you have a company backing your ass, that's clearly different than spending your own money:) Some people spend more than others, but it's still the same playground. I think the reason for my Hamburg invite was that my teammate's preferred partner was unavailable, nothing else;) I contributed very little... never touched the i-series before that day:D Quote
Massman Posted June 8, 2010 Posted June 8, 2010 Eh, some people get free hardware because they own a website and do reviews without being a "pro". IMO, if you get free hardware and aren't a "pro" you must provide links to reviews of the hardware or some other way of doing things like that. I kind of disagree with this. Getting hardware for review is different from getting hardware for overclocking. People who do reviews often have to make sure everything can be send back in a decent state and the products are not send for overclocking, but for mere testing. The amateur league is, in most people's minds, a place where ne freebies are given away. This is, I think, an utopia because 1) it's too strict: attending a live final (something you might have worked very hard for to get to) leads to being moved to PRO. It's not because you attend one final or receive one board you're a pro 2) We can simply not control or even check up on the flow of hardware coming from manufacturers. No freebies = uncontrolable. You're scenario is completely different imho... no one continuously (at least more than once) sends you hardware for review or testing... However, at the same time, if you are invited to an event ... you obviously posses skills the are not considered "amature" otherwise they could have asked someone down the street from the event to do it I don't think the amateur league should be a league for people who have no skill. If you have no skill, you simply can't overclock ... Quote
Bustah Posted June 8, 2010 Posted June 8, 2010 (edited) There should a qualification for pro rankings. in my case every now and then I get a motherboard to test/use from gigabyte or MSI, thats hardly a 'fully supported situation' PRO meanS proffessional i.e. you are fully supported and are accountable to the people who give you stuff. there is going to be a fine line here and its down to honesty in many cases. A person like myself in my current status i.e. gets the odd mobo here and there would be at a great disadvantage against FULLY supported guys, unless I were a millionare, which sadly I am not. clearly defined guidelines need to be laid out, someone entering the pro rankings have a very good chance of being fully supported, so maybe top ten or so in the non pro ranks have an oppurtunity to get promoted while the bottom ten or so in the pro ranks could be relegated? that way every overclocker has a chance of a shot in the pro ranks if they wish to attempt it, maybe get manufacturers to agree to support unsupported guys who enter pro ranks? im brainstorming and might be way off, just some thoughts... I would not like to see a pro league being a 'closed shop' Edited June 8, 2010 by Bustah Quote
BenchZowner Posted June 8, 2010 Posted June 8, 2010 Not a bad idea at all Bustah but I don't think the manufacturers would appreciate that ( too bad for them though ). Quote
BenchZowner Posted June 8, 2010 Posted June 8, 2010 Don't know whether I should care or not. I've seen you guys ignore various suggestions and ideas from various members in the past, actually it looks like you just don't care, so... maybe not. Quote
[GF]Duke Posted June 8, 2010 Posted June 8, 2010 (edited) I think the pro in the pro league should have bointage and the bointage should still go to his team as well. so as not to hurt team standings worldwide. So 2 leagues but separate individual points and points earned will still go to the team. Does that sound as confusing to you as it does to me? I'd hate to be the one trying to write that code. lol Edited June 8, 2010 by [GF]Duke Quote
George_o/c Posted June 8, 2010 Posted June 8, 2010 (edited) IMHO we are thinking in the wrong direction. We should not decide ourself who is "pro", but let a member decide theirself whether they are pro or amateur. In order to prevent random people from joining the pro league, the option should only be available when you are ranked in the top 50 of the amateur league. On top of that, we should have a "pro overclocking championship"; a few competitions a year for pro members where you can accumulate points which for the yearly pro championship ranking, which resets each year. These competitions should be mandatory, if you consider yourself pro and do not participate in more than 1 competition, you are disqualified... like any other pro sport. Killer idea there Frederik, one of the best and most rational I've ever heard! That way, the guys who are fully supported by manufacturers and think of overclocking as a profession should enter the pro league. As a community we can't draw a line as to who is considered to be "supported", therefore we should let them decide by themselves. Moreover, whoever feels like he's got the guts to be pro should first aim to join top50 in the amature league, and secondly if he still feels like joining the pros he should wait till the end of the season or something With the above-mentioned way, pros stay out of amature league and more importantly, heavily sponsored guys stay out of the amature league. For all us cheap-ass overclockers there is still fun out there, NOTHING is changing! Lots of crappy hardware to buy, inexpensive CPUs, retro VGAs to mod & bench. I mean, come on, admit it... We still get to have fun and can also admire our favorite team/overclockers in the professional league! And in case you feel like competing with the pros? Spend money (just like they did in the past) to buy expensive hardware, equipment, LN2 dewar, collect as many points as you can so that you enter top50 in amature league and then aim for da big championship Edited June 8, 2010 by George_o/c Quote
Thor941 Posted June 8, 2010 Posted June 8, 2010 OK but when the guy access to the Pro league, will he remains there forever? On what basis will he be "relegate" to the Amateur league? Quote
BenchZowner Posted June 8, 2010 Posted June 8, 2010 So, random stuff without arguments. Gotcha. Absolutely. Since all the time our arguments are "invalid" in your and massman's opinion. Just like they were invalid back then when F1OC begun... and we all saw how that ended up... Quote
Massman Posted June 8, 2010 Posted June 8, 2010 OK but when the guy access to the Pro league, will he remains there forever? On what basis will he be "relegate" to the Amateur league? IMHO We have to keep in mind, however, that the word 'pro' suggests that there's some kind of financial reward. As of today, only very few overclockers are getting paid for their overclocking escapades (in fact, I don't think any overclocker has a salary based on overclocking results), which means that the 'pro league' is more about having acces and connections that really getting paid. Making it mandatory to participate in competitions is quite diffuclt in this scenario, as even for those in the 'pro league' this remains a hobby. Another solution would be to have a ranking based on both 'free overclocking' (what we do now) and the 'pro comps' (for extra points). If it would be balanced 50/50, pro comps wouldn't be mandatory to compete in, but necessary if you want the top spot in the pro league. I don't think we are at this stage yet that we can talk about relegating someone from the PRO league based on the overclocking results. Step 1 is to relieve the normal overclockers out there from the burden of competing with heavily supported guys. Step 2 might be a dedicated OC league with relegation etc. Quote
BenchZowner Posted June 8, 2010 Posted June 8, 2010 You dropped the support, but did you learn anything from their organizational mistakes ? Quote
Crew Leeghoofd Posted June 8, 2010 Crew Posted June 8, 2010 (edited) First thriller episode of F1 is hardly comparable to this situation here Bill... Nick made some big errors from the start ( deviating form his own rules, under manufacturer pressure ? mostly arranged behind the scenes) Flaws that he never publicly admitted. Plus he avoided any input to get the league better from participating members, bystanders and Hwbot crew... and yes in the end it all turned against him. As it seems Hwbot crew was already tinkering with the different league a while back. But are maybe awaiting the right time to imply it. Thing is : this split up will be a shocker to many again, just as the new revision was. After a few weeks/months the dust will settle and most won't even look back. Though those that end up in the pro league and don't have the capacity/money/... to compete will be bashing the forum... In my defence... getting loads of review gear. (though not much ends up under Phase/LN2 , unless it's for a quick run of max Bclock,... to get some nice screenies in the reviews.) does that qualify me as a Pro. some might think so, I don't think I'm a Pro. I can't even voltmod It has to be well discussed between the crew and then passed on to us the clockers who will and won't be in the Pro league. What are valid arguments to be classified directly in the pro league ? Freebies, doing some live events ? LN2 usage ? Voltmodding skills ? Top scores ? Global points ? Hardware points ? That's what we need to discuss now, not what happenend in the past... Get a drink, smoke a ciggie and get some air Bill, you are far too tense at the moment to think 100% rationally... Try a positive approach to this then just... We need to get data together now of what will be a valid argument for who is and is not to be in the league... Help the crew out there, I know you can do it ! Smartpants :nana: Edited June 8, 2010 by Leeghoofd Quote
steponz Posted June 8, 2010 Posted June 8, 2010 For the pro league.. Make several categories of rankings 1. Normal Points 2. HWBot Comp Points 3. Top 10(20) fight for an end of year title Kind of like how baseball is in the States.. or American Football. Once your in.. no matter what your record is.. your in.. then have playoffs where they compete in different categories.. You could have wildcards and all sorts of interesting methods of adding clockers.. Would definitely keep it interesting to watch.. and by giving more shots for the Title of all titles.(HwBot 2010 Champion)... it should make it easier for guys who are not financially backed as much to get in and compete... This would be killer to keep track of.. I know I would be hooked.. and an oppurtunity to get involved with that.. would make me want to climb up the amateur leage to be a pro.... Quote
steponz Posted June 8, 2010 Posted June 8, 2010 Just think each clocker would have a cam setup to monitor whats going on... in the finals... No travel necessary.. But could be cool also.. Quote
dread77 Posted June 8, 2010 Posted June 8, 2010 Step 1 is to relieve the normal overclockers out there from the burden of competing with heavily supported guys. Step 2 might be a dedicated OC league with relegation etc. Yes, this sounds right and it could be the foundations for a possible solution. As long as it will not take long before going from step one to step two. Quote
Massman Posted June 8, 2010 Posted June 8, 2010 Let's just focus on step 1 first. Having a system where people can lose their place in an "upper league" and drop back to the "lower league" is a much more complicated issue than splitting up rankigs. Yes, even more complicated Quote
dread77 Posted June 8, 2010 Posted June 8, 2010 Let's just focus on step 1 first. Having a system where people can lose their place in an "upper league" and drop back to the "lower league" is a much more complicated issue than splitting up rankigs. Yes, even more complicated Totally understood regarding the complicity of such a transformation in existing system, though you guys should focus on a TOTAL solution which will be fair for upper and lower league equally. Quote
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