Massman Posted June 17, 2010 Share Posted June 17, 2010 This issue has been popping up a few times in the last couple of months, so maybe it's time to work on solving it. Ideas and concepts have been floating around for months (maybe even years) and here's a first worked-out version of a competition that should make everyone happy (). Note: # This document is a WORK-IN-PROGRESS and certainly not a fact. We're releasing this to the public to get feedback on vital points we've missed or things we've overseen! # Name is work-in-progress as well # Biggest change for household overclockers: no ES in amateur ranking # We do NOT force anyone to join any category Many years ago, overclockers were nothing more than students trying to match the performance of the high-end hardware components without spending too much money. Overclocking proved to be beneficial, even in daily applications, and together with the rise of the online discussion forums, communities discussing how to improve the system’s performance further. Although there’s no factual proof, I’m certain that not much later benchmarks appeared to make it easier to measure the performance increase in a simpler way than just the daily applications. It is from that point, when people all around the globe started using benchmarks to improve and compare the performance increase, that overclocking was going in a different direction. Instead of focusing on the relative performance increase, or: what was visible on a daily basis, people began to focus on the absolute performance. It was the birth of competitive overclocking. The HWBOT OC Pro league is a suggested solution coming from the heart of the HWBOT staff. In its essence, it’s an attempt to solve the current problem with seeded overclockers taking on the household overclocker in the same ranking, be it in the Overclockers League, live or online overclocking competitions. It’s a first step in the direction of a clear and transparent split-up between the market and marketing. No doubt it’s not perfect, but it’s not meant to be. LINK TO THE FULL DOCUMENT: http://hwbot.org/blog/wp-content//ocproleage.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hondacity Posted June 17, 2010 Share Posted June 17, 2010 3d wr points ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,what about the 2d wr points? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massman Posted June 17, 2010 Author Share Posted June 17, 2010 Why are those needed? //edit: and seriously, that's the first reply on this topic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hondacity Posted June 17, 2010 Share Posted June 17, 2010 hehhehe a good 3d is results of a good 2d....2d is the grandfather of 3d ...damn that sounds ridiculous..but its logical Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massman Posted June 17, 2010 Author Share Posted June 17, 2010 3D WR points were added for a very, very specific reason: top overall scores did not get propper reward. With SPI, the top overall scores already get the highest reward, so there's no problem with that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaPaKaH Posted June 18, 2010 Share Posted June 18, 2010 overclockers league - why limit people with 300 hardware points? why not to limit them to, say, 25 best hardware submissions? 2 point grinders will drop, and people with twenty five 20-50pt submittions (which are not easy to make) will have at least theoretical chance of getting into the top 10? (25x50=1250hardware pts) otherwise, now the overclockers league gives a huge advantage to those who use lots of high-end hardware which, in my personal definition of overclocking, is not a measure of skill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massman Posted June 18, 2010 Author Share Posted June 18, 2010 I understand what you're saying (we've looked into this before), but it doesn't look totally feasible. First of all, it's not always very difficult to get high ranks in hardware categories: with new CPU architecture, you can own an older (but popular) 3D hardware ranking. Sure, it takes some time and LN2 to do so, but 'skill' isn't really necessary to grab 20 points. Secondly, we don't want to make the already popular hardware categories even more popular than they are now. There's no need to put a lot of focus on, for instance, the 8800GTX category. Some folks already said that we put too much focus on these categories now when the new HWBOINTS revision came to life. The real need for high-end hardware has also been addressed. Before 980X, you could get far with a good 960 or 950 and a single graphics card. Of course, 980X is making it a bit more expensive now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alriin Posted June 18, 2010 Share Posted June 18, 2010 I dont like this idea. Rev 3 is a little bit unbalanced, but good. Please work on Rev 3 and foget this one! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|ron Posted June 18, 2010 Share Posted June 18, 2010 Pieter, let me understand... the changes between now and after the split will be that only the PROs can access the competitions? As I look at the graph I understand that OC league has hwpoints (same as now, limited to 300 for a person, not limited when it comes to count in the whole team points), Global Points best per benchmark (same as now, in all the submissions I do in a benchmark, the one who gets the most hwboints, not the highest score in the benchmark, takes globals, the others only the hwboints), and the last thing... 3D WR points: isn't it the same thing that goes in the Global Points? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massman Posted June 18, 2010 Author Share Posted June 18, 2010 Competitions would still be open to everyone. Ideally, comps are split up in: - Extreme: high-end hardware, binning allowed, counts for pro league points - Mainstream: mainstream hardware, no binning, no ES, stand-alone competition - Extreme: everyone can compete if you have the right hardware - Mainstream: only non-pro can compete - Overclockers League = like it is now, but ES removed - OC Pro League = seeded/supported guys can go in here, marketing benching goes in here, everything allowed - Teams League = like it is right now - Hardware points = like it is now - Global points = like it is now, but pro scores do not influence points of normal scores - 3D-WR points = points awarded to top 3D results (multi-gpu) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richba5tard Posted June 18, 2010 Share Posted June 18, 2010 I dont like this idea. Rev 3 is a little bit unbalanced, but good. Please work on Rev 3 and foget this one! Argumentation please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knopflerbruce Posted June 18, 2010 Share Posted June 18, 2010 Engineering samples are still allowed in the specific hardware categories, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alriin Posted June 18, 2010 Share Posted June 18, 2010 Argumentation please. What`s a Pro? A Overclocker who bench for a Company (EVGA, Gigabyte,...)? A Overclocker who have Sponsors? A Overclocker who tests Hardware for an Website and bench them for HWbot? Or a Overclocker who have enough money to buy a lot of Hardware? When you split the League in Pro and Amateur, the People cry about Overclockers they have Testsamples for benching or People who have enough money. Next time the AMD-only Bencher want to split it in AMD and Intel, because they have no chance to beat them. Finally we have a Pro, a Semi-Pro, a Amateur, a AMD and a Intel-League. I dont like this idea. I hope you unterstand what i mean... sorry for my english. :-( "Rev 3 is a little bit unbalanced, but good." A little bit too much Points for Mainstream-Hardware. I bench an crappy Geforce 9800GX2 @air and stock voltage with an 980X @ln2 and become a lot of points for them. But my Global World Records in wPrime 3x Core Ranking (i test hardware and bench 2 or 3 weeks) are worthless. The awarding for popular hardware is a little bit overdone. A laughable 30th rank with a 7900GT, 8800GTX,... earned more points then a 1th rank with an cpu/gpu that is unpopular. I think this need more "fine tuning". And the Rule that each bench earned 0,1 Points, equal its rank 76 or 257, is not good. over again: sorry for my english! I hope you understand what i mean!?! greets Alriin (Michael) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richba5tard Posted June 18, 2010 Share Posted June 18, 2010 What`s a Pro? A Overclocker who bench for a Company (EVGA, Gigabyte,...)? A Overclocker who have Sponsors? A Overclocker who tests Hardware for an Website and bench them for HWbot? Or a Overclocker who have enough money to buy a lot of Hardware? When you split the League in Pro and Amateur, the People cry about Overclockers they have Testsamples for benching or People who have enough money. A pro overclocker can be any of the above, as the document states that anyone can choose to be in the pro league. We do not choose who is pro(*) and who not. If you consider yourself pro, fine, but you will have to battle "the big guys" in order to be on top. (*) we do recommend to be in the top 50 amateur league before switching to pro, otherwise any john do would be able to say he is pro. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alriin Posted June 18, 2010 Share Posted June 18, 2010 (edited) If you consider yourself pro, fine, but you will have to battle "the big guys" in order to be on top. ??? I dont consider me as a pro... i have no sponsors, no money and not the experience for a pro. hmmm... i dont know... is it good when we make a two-class society on HWbot?!? Edited June 18, 2010 by Alriin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yotomeczek Posted June 18, 2010 Share Posted June 18, 2010 It's so wired - I think it could be the end of HWBot There is no way to verificate everyone with 100% sure (sponsored or not and so on) I don't like it ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richba5tard Posted June 18, 2010 Share Posted June 18, 2010 It's so wired - I think it could be the end of HWBot There is no way to verificate everyone with 100% sure (sponsored or not and so on) I don't like it ... I wasn't talking about you specifically. You are 100% correct you can not verify whether someone is pro or not, hence this is why a user is free to choose in which league he participates. ??? I dont consider me as a pro... i have no sponsors, no money and not the experience for a pro. hmmm... i dont know... is it good when we make a two-class society on HWbot?!? RTFD. For people who are not sponsored or do not consider themselves pro, this will get better, as sponsored people people will not participate in the amateur league. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian y. Posted June 18, 2010 Share Posted June 18, 2010 Argumentation please.IMO you guys should keep things the way they are. Yes, while under the current situation in regards to how the top spots are being held can be very overwhelming, BUT this is suppose to be the league where the best show up to. As to whether someone decides to tick that little box if it is warranted that is solely up to them. I just can't understand how two leagues will make any difference or make anyone "feel" any better. I mean what is the point of being #1 in a AM league?How many OCers actually are truly "sponsored"(receive actual binned HW) anyways? I am honestly sick of hearing about that dam word as it gets thrown around as much as the dreaded "WR" B-S that has taken over in recent months. Being involved in enduser support does not make you sponsored. Beta BIOS testing a mobo/reviewing a kit of ram/etc does not evolve automatically into Top Ten standings. Benching is not just pour and click like some like to believe. I can't tell you how many times I have seen gem hw that was not utilized to it's full potential by previous owners. In all honesty unless those scores that are at the top of the bot are the only thing between you and #1 in the league it should not be worried about it. In actuality the very Ocer's that are in that position have not said a word...they just continue to compete. That is what separates the great ones from the rest. They all had to work their asses off to get where they are. We would see much more intense battles if more people would worry more about the strategy of how they are going to over take the OCer that is right above them and less about the few at the top that have earned their way there(I mean we were ALL OC noobs at one point, no?) yeah I understand peoples points of the super binning/sponsored/endless funds that are a part of this hobby but the best way to to deal with it IMO is just show what you can do and prove you have skills with what you got. Get the respect. The rest will follow. My two cents Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massman Posted June 19, 2010 Author Share Posted June 19, 2010 Seriously? 62% of the votes in this thread say "yes, please make two leagues" and now that the suggestion is here all we get is replies against the idea. In the end, this just looks like "oh, we just like to complain about everything" It's so wired - I think it could be the end of HWBot Maybe even the end of the universe . Please explain ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crew Antinomy Posted June 19, 2010 Crew Share Posted June 19, 2010 (edited) I think those who like everything don't see a reason to make a reply So you made me to do this. We've got a proverb in Russia on this. "Would be better, but it turned out as always". So I hope it won't turn out as always and will be implemented to correctly serve the requirements that it was developed to. Maybe even the end of the universe .Don't worry. The best we can do is not increasing the entropy.Though, assuming the only way to do so is to die, I suggest we rock 'n' roll and don't give a damn to entropy Edited June 19, 2010 by Antinomy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George_o/c Posted June 20, 2010 Share Posted June 20, 2010 I fully agree with the whole idea Massman! Only thing I haven't yet completely understood, is how are you going to prevent guys from binning hardware in mainstream competitions. I really don't think that that's something you can take control of. Also, If I get this right, money prizes will only be given away to extreme competition winners? Therefore, winners of Mainstream competitions win high-end hardware? If yeah, then it sounds fully rational, I'm all in for that one as well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
$@39@ Posted June 20, 2010 Share Posted June 20, 2010 I like the idea too. It's a great start to make things at o/cing fair and competitive again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BenchZowner Posted June 20, 2010 Share Posted June 20, 2010 Look who are the ones complaining now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icsd_sap Posted June 20, 2010 Share Posted June 20, 2010 I think separating the two leagues is a great idea:) It would be more fair for people who like benching but don't have much money to spend for their hobby. I also totally agree with the rule of not using ES hardware in the amateur league and the way of organizing the competitions! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knopflerbruce Posted June 20, 2010 Share Posted June 20, 2010 I assume the idea is that ES chips will still count for hardware boints, as today? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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