chew* Posted September 30, 2010 Share Posted September 30, 2010 OK pieter after having slept on this and having a clear head now, I really don't have an answer on how to stop it....... Tbh i'm disgusted with benching for boint's myself and my focus has been no longer on it for a while now. Unfortunately 99% of software we use can be cheated, when one door is closed someone will eventually pick the lock on another door. I think even if we did have an answer however ( like some sort of verification ) that still does not change the fact that any previous damage done to the rankings via hw sharing will remain unfixed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massman Posted September 30, 2010 Author Share Posted September 30, 2010 The thing is ... most of the time someone talks about hardware sharing in another team, it's based on hear-say rumours, cannot be talked about in public (maybe someone gets angry) and there's hardly ever any proof. If we start removing entire teams based on just "hey, I am sure of this", then I guess anyone could come to the staff and accuse someone they don't like. If at a certain point someone comes to me about XS sharing hardware, will you allow me to remove the entire team just because of that rumour? Or even based on made-up evidence (which is actually happening)? I'm also not really comfortable setting up a 'witness protection' unit ... it sounds rediculous even typing the words. On of the underlying issues here is that team captains all too often choose the side of their team member, even though evidence shows that hardware sharing (or cheating for that matter) happened. I'm VERY open to suggestions from the team captains, but in return I want them to take responsibility as well and remove the unfair players from their team if they suspect something strange is going on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massman Posted September 30, 2010 Author Share Posted September 30, 2010 There is just no way to quash sharing, so make it legal? Make it legal? Have you considered the consequences of that action? Or is this just something you throw in the group? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K404 Posted September 30, 2010 Share Posted September 30, 2010 To make it legal while we're trying to think of a solution would be disasterous. The damage (and scores) done in the meantime could never be removed in the future because they were compliant with HWB rules at the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kal-EL Posted September 30, 2010 Share Posted September 30, 2010 I think Sweet has good thoughts on making the rules so very clear as to remove any doubt what is within the rules and what is not. Also, requiring more information in the screenshots like the mainboard and spd tabs is a step in the right direction. Requiring complete screenshots from the top of the ranking to the bottom, irregardless of FM links provided or not, IMO is a step in the right direction. Holding Team Captains accountable for their team members actions will prompt them to keep a closer eye on whats happening within their teams, take action! and likely result in self-regulated removal of suspected violations ordered by the Team Captains themselves before any complaints are actually lodged. Should be required on the screens the mainboard tab, and full screen windows, without any cuts, including the taskbar,... include this in the rules would be better temporarily until it reaches something aboutI think it will be better... How bout starting some sort of CrimeStoppers system where if a member has knowledge of hardware sharing violations and can provide concrete evdience of sharing, the rat bastard gets acknowledged publicly for standing up for what's right and gets a free system sponsored by the manufacturers here at hwbot. (prolly an unpopular suggestion) Whatever comes, I hope things can be resolute and widely amiable soon, regardless of any disagreement I've had in the past, I've always appreciated the db service provided here at hwbot but I know there are already more than a few groups from different nations working hard on creating their own rendition of hwbot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massman Posted September 30, 2010 Author Share Posted September 30, 2010 How bout starting some sort of CrimeStoppers system where if a member has knowledge of hardware sharing violations and can provide concrete evdience of sharing, the rat bastard gets acknowledged publicly for standing up for what's right and gets a free system sponsored by the manufacturers here at hwbot. (prolly an unpopular suggestion) Quickly checked the Crimestoppers site ... looks like a good idea. The key point, however, is that this is a anonymous system. So, rewarding someone with a system is not possible. To what extend do you see Team Captains play a role? There are 1000+ teams on HWBOT, which means there are 1000+ team captains as well. Having a dedicated subforum with 1000 people posting might not be that much better than posting everything in public. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massman Posted September 30, 2010 Author Share Posted September 30, 2010 Whatever comes, I hope things can be resolute and widely amiable soon, regardless of any disagreement I've had in the past, I've always appreciated the db service provided here at hwbot but I know there are already more than a few groups from different nations working hard on creating their own rendition of hwbot. Looking forward to see how these new systems solve some of the issues we're facing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K404 Posted September 30, 2010 Share Posted September 30, 2010 (edited) Mobo and SPD tab isn't really going to help, sadly... the other drawback I can think of... where will that info go in a screenshot? Juggling tabs over and over again to get all the (currently) necessary info in, whilst holding temps is bad enough Thats taken on a 19" widescreen monitor FYI I can think of quite a few 3D runs between users where the mobo, CPU, RAM, timings, speeds and voltages are the same.... the GPU is the only possible difference. Mobo and SPD tabs aren't going to help, especially as neither board nor RAM are included in hardware sharing rules Edited September 30, 2010 by K404 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kal-EL Posted September 30, 2010 Share Posted September 30, 2010 Quickly checked the Crimestoppers site ... looks like a good idea. The key point, however, is that this is a anonymous system. So, rewarding someone with a system is not possible. To what extend do you see Team Captains play a role? There are 1000+ teams on HWBOT, which means there are 1000+ team captains as well. Having a dedicated subforum with 1000 people posting might not be that much better than posting everything in public. For the most part I see that the Team Captains from a great majority of teams have the support and respect of their team members. Rather than many voices shouting (some at a varying degree of frustration or emo state) at one time, you have one or two voices from a particluar team that speak deliberately rather than brashly. With any luck, you'll have Team's Discussing issues within their own community and Team Captains presenting those issues, concerns or thoughts with one "Reasonable" voice. This may work well for Team related hwbot business in a sub-forum but general issues would still need to be discussed in an open forum as there are many players here that don't belong to a "Team". So, instead of having 1000+ teams with anywhere from 5 to 300 members each, lets say 300,000 members all posting whatever comes to mind at any particular moment, you have 1000+ people who have discussed the issue within their Team and come to a well thought out consensus on what they feel should be expressed and the manner in which it should be conveyed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kal-EL Posted September 30, 2010 Share Posted September 30, 2010 Looking forward to see how these new systems solve some of the issues we're facing If they solve it, great! If they don't, then all it means is another fracture or splinter in the community, Bad! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|ron Posted September 30, 2010 Share Posted September 30, 2010 To what extend do you see Team Captains play a role? There are 1000+ teams on HWBOT, which means there are 1000+ team captains as well. Having a dedicated subforum with 1000 people posting might not be that much better than posting everything in public. Pieter, consider that teams with over 300points are about 160. I hardly doubt that if some team does sharing or cheating, has less points that a lot of single overclockers here on hwbot. So for me, this team admin "closed" section is something that could help: I mean, for the cheating/reporting fact but also to discuss new hwbot revision or features... a person who represents his/her team and speaks for his/her team mates Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drnip Posted September 30, 2010 Share Posted September 30, 2010 (edited) The thing is ... most of the time someone talks about hardware sharing in another team, it's based on hear-say rumours, cannot be talked about in public (maybe someone gets angry) and there's hardly ever any proof. If we start removing entire teams based on just "hey, I am sure of this", then I guess anyone could come to the staff and accuse someone they don't like. If at a certain point someone comes to me about XS sharing hardware, will you allow me to remove the entire team just because of that rumour? Or even based on made-up evidence (which is actually happening)? I'm also not really comfortable setting up a 'witness protection' unit ... it sounds rediculous even typing the words. On of the underlying issues here is that team captains all too often choose the side of their team member, even though evidence shows that hardware sharing (or cheating for that matter) happened. I'm VERY open to suggestions from the team captains, but in return I want them to take responsibility as well and remove the unfair players from their team if they suspect something strange is going on. Alot of people don't have local PC shops where they can just go down and pick thru the CPU's and get the batch # they like, for instance me. I rely on internet shops and for them to pick the batch for me so here is a scenario that happens and I know I have seen at several forums. A member goes down to his local computer store and finds a known great overclocking batch # CPU and starts a thread on it. He states that they have 3 more at this local store and if anyone is interested let him know and he will pick them one up if they paypal him the money. So next thing you know 4 members have bought the same batch # of CPU's and all 4 are overclocking almost similar in clocks. All 4 members submit results around the same time or even at separate times. Now to the hardware sharing police they are calling foul because there are 4 similar results with the same model # CPU being submitted at the bot by the same team. What can ya do? Nothing because no matter how many pictures, screenshots, tabs you require there is no way of determining who or what is being bought, sold or shared. I don't believe the problem is as big as some are making it out to be. About the only possible solution I can see is if the Bot starts requiring bill of sale to be uploaded but that in itself would open a can of worms like no other. If it came down to that many would prolly walk a way as it isn't that serious. Even at that though a cheater will find a way to cheat and prolly just alter the bill of sale or make up a bogus one. Edited September 30, 2010 by drnip Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muzwa kai Posted September 30, 2010 Share Posted September 30, 2010 until there is an individual hardware id for cpu/gpu, i dont think there is a solution apart from maybe a disclaimer and hope that everyone is honest. even then there would need to be a no 2nd hand hardware sale rule. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drnip Posted September 30, 2010 Share Posted September 30, 2010 until there is an individual hardware id for cpu/gpu, i dont think there is a solution apart from maybe a disclaimer and hope that everyone is honest. even then there would need to be a no 2nd hand hardware sale rule. Even at that though what if you sell your hardware to someone else? Then they will be submitting results with your sold hardware with that ID. Then what do you have to do, jump thru hoops to prove you sold it to them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muzwa kai Posted September 30, 2010 Share Posted September 30, 2010 Even at that though what if you sell your hardware to someone else? Then they will be submitting results with your sold hardware with that ID. Then what do you have to do, jump thru hoops to prove you sold it to them? thats why there would need to be a no 2nd hand hardware sale rule. the responsibility for administering this issue may be out of the hwbot crew's hands. it may fall upon the manufacturers and the top overclockers connected with these manufacturers to come up with the solution. there would be more retail hardware sales and may allow the financing of the individual harware id's to be implemented. together with software for registering the hardware for it's user. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muzwa kai Posted September 30, 2010 Share Posted September 30, 2010 sorry if i double posted, its not showing up for me...??? thats why there would need to be a no 2nd hand hardware sale rule. the responsibility for administering this issue may be out of the hwbot crew's hands. it may fall upon the manufacturers and the top overclockers connected with these manufacturers to come up with the solution. there would be more retail hardware sales and may allow the financing of the individual harware id's to be implemented. together with software for registering the hardware for it's user. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crew Sweet Posted September 30, 2010 Crew Share Posted September 30, 2010 (edited) On of the underlying issues here is that team captains all too often choose the side of their team member, even though evidence shows that hardware sharing (or cheating for that matter) happened. VERY open to suggestions from the team captains, but in return I want them to take responsibility as well and remove the unfair players from their team if they suspect something strange is going on. That is true, as sure as the competition itself, where competition is a priority at any cost, the captains are only its members lawyers, and nothing else This is increased when there antagonism and enmity between the teams But something can be done in the meantime found solutions, increase the data on the screens, as I said in my post 520 http://hwbot.org/forum/showpost.php?p=72988&postcount=520 Is to start down the road, improving catches in principle is something else to consider, now, and while debate further improve the above problem Doing nothing is bad, simple as it sounds Maybe,...draw the attention of every one of the captains to enforce accountability to the community, and that their work is not just wild defense of the members, but also be responsible for bad practices, controlling each of the bench submit to hwbot the captain is directly responsible to the community members Anyway...deliberate disloyalty should be reduced, it must find safe routes, is not be easy job, A Long and Winding Road (beautiful song of my time Young ) People I should clarify, I'm not captain of my Team, but I worry that I consider something unfair practice. My Team has a good captain, always reminded everyone not to share hard, does not want any problems or complaints with this community Sw P.S: I hope you understand as clearly as possible what I mean Edited September 30, 2010 by Sweet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Splave Posted September 30, 2010 Share Posted September 30, 2010 (edited) Make it legal? Have you considered the consequences of that action? Or is this just something you throw in the group? Yes I have considered the consequences. A team that has a good chip will do well (except for my team we all have garbage chipz lol). As of this point people that are hardware sharing have the advantage, so take away their advantage and maybe they will be less likely to do it and or it levels the playing field for teams that didnt do it before. Its all benchmarking to me regardless of the HW used, just bench! Hardware sharing being illegal is pointless, there is no way to prove it so why pretend that we can? If MOA and other contest results are submittable with hw we dont own and are possibly sharing without knowing (ala reuse of ES chipz for contests) why cant teams that arent fortunate enough to participate do the same amongst themselves. Edited September 30, 2010 by Splave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massman Posted September 30, 2010 Author Share Posted September 30, 2010 Good. I'll join join forces with a couple of teams so that we have an 'OC army' of roughly 1000 overclockers, send them my golden GTX480 and destroy all. That'll be interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crew Sweet Posted September 30, 2010 Crew Share Posted September 30, 2010 (edited) send them my golden GTX480 I send you my address by pm, I pay shipping, but not if I give it back, I have to share with members of Team (230 members) besides, I can lend it to my daughter to play for a while? Sorry, but Seriously, this is not good and there is no chance of being considered. Unfortunately, the correct path is the longest, choose the shortest and simplest is a serious error Sw Edited September 30, 2010 by Sweet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massman Posted September 30, 2010 Author Share Posted September 30, 2010 Maybe -maybe- it solves the bitching about hardware sharing, but it will create a lot more problems. - Extremely large teams will own the game, small teams have no place anymore - The bitching will shift from hardware sharing to 'one user has multiple accounts' - Increasing amount of score sharing Those are just three issues; I'm sure there are several others left to mention. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drnip Posted September 30, 2010 Share Posted September 30, 2010 This hardware sharing is getting blown way out of proportion. Kinda reminds me of 1999 and all the Y2K freaks trying to spook everybody else about the year 2000. ROFL Just leave it the way it is. All you can do is put your trust in that people won't abuse the system. Like everything else in this world there will be those that do. What can ya do? Catch them if you can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|ron Posted September 30, 2010 Share Posted September 30, 2010 This hardware sharing is getting blown way out of proportion. Kinda reminds me of 1999 and all the Y2K freaks trying to spook everybody else about the year 2000. ROFL Just leave it the way it is. All you can do is put your trust in that people won't abuse the system. Like everything else in this world there will be those that do. What can ya do? Catch them if you can. Like in any state of the world, the laws tend to avoid that people con do something illegal... if you do, you'll be punished. By letting everybody do what they want, hoping to not be discovered, is the way to far west I think. Put trust that people won't do hw sharing... there are so many examples of hw sharing that I'm not so confident in "trusting people" anymore. Rev4 is not perfect? Ok, but it's a step in the right direction... further adjustments will be done onve rev4 will be up and running. Just my 2 cents Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnamd Posted September 30, 2010 Share Posted September 30, 2010 i have 980 es q3qp ao stepping. plays Enthusiast League? for test gard 3dmark play enthusiast league? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kal-EL Posted September 30, 2010 Share Posted September 30, 2010 Good. I'll join join forces with a couple of teams so that we have an 'OC army' of roughly 1000 overclockers, send them my golden GTX480 and destroy all. That'll be interesting. How many people would actually send a "Golden" anything to their m8's? To me thats both stupid and crazy. That "Golden" would be "Deaden" in no time flat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.