POLICE department INTO hwbot?....

[bazx]

thanks massman for you time

 

baz

[Thickbrit]

Even serial number photo's would not stop determined abuse of the system.People could bench the hardware,then 'sell' the hardware to another bencher,then possibly even 'buy' it back.Another issue is shared hardware,for instance Bazx and i recently bought a qx9650 between us,to keep the costs of benchmarking down.It quite legitimately belongs to both of us and although we'd never bench it on the same rig at the same time,we would expect to both be able to submit scores with it.We also both have 8800 ultra's too,so you can see how easy it would appear that we bench the same rig,but we don't.This really is an impossible task to try to police results and i don't actually have any answers to it for now.I think an extremely detailed system description on hwbot (not forum) can go a long way to proving differences in system setup.Other than that,little can be done,except relying on the integrity of individual members.Upon reflection,maybe hwbot teams was a step too far and we should have remained individual benchmarkers,as we once were.I don't know.

[Massman]

Actually, HWBot (well ... Mbot as it was named then) started as a forum league ... but that completely off topic.

[AN7 OverClocker]

As Intel has lend you that rig for review, it's your property for that week. All bench results are your property as well, so there's no problem in submitting those results

 

So..

If someone benches @ hipro's lab for 2 weeks own's the results.

Right?

 

 

And the problem with the results is........what?

 

Giorgios.th "benched" at hipro's lab for 2 weeks as other members of HOT,like elefsinaras etc but not at the same time/day and the same h/w...similar but not the same.

[Monstru]

Oh my goodness problems, problems and more problems

 

It seems that it is harder and harder to please everyone with the way HWBot works, and somehow you guys have to think a whole new set of rules to keep things fair for everyone.

 

If you ask me, I disagreed with the rule that is being discussed here from the beginning, because it has some faults.

 

I agree with the idea that same hardware shouldn't be used many times to bring more points to a team.

I disagree with the idea that only the owner of the hardware should be able to get points using that hardware, for two reasons:

 

1. Hardware is being bought and sold, so if you want to stop more people to get points using the same "champion CPU", for instance, you can't, because someone who benches while he has that CPU earns some points, and someone that benches after he bought that CPU from the first person also earns some points, and everything is perfectly legal accordingly to HWB rules.....

 

2. If somebody uses a CPU lend from a friend for some benching sessions and he gets some nice results, he deserve those results, because he worked for them. In the same way, the friend that lend him that CPU also deserves his points from his benching sessions, because he also worked for his. So each one of them deserve those points. The only "entity" that should not benefit from the cumulation of points is their team.

 

REMEMBER THIS...HWBot is about rewarding and motivating people's skill, not the purchasing of hardware. That's why I think that the points should be awarded to a person for his skill, not for owning a certain CPU or GPU

 

That being said, I have a suggestion that will please nobody, but it will make things FAIR. Let team members bench the same hardware (top hardware is really expensive, and there are persons who can't afford some things, while they are more skilled and better clockers than others who can afford expensive HW). Let each team member have it's points. BUT use the actual rule regarding those points only for the team, so each guy can have his points BUT only the points for the best score will add to the team's total points

 

In this way, the true spirit of HWBot will be respected, and the skilled overclockers will be rewarded, and the teams will not “cheat”. I know that all the teams suffer a little bit while reading these thoughts, but let’s keep it fair for everybody and don’t hurt the little guys because of the ego fight that is always taking place between the overclocking mammoths.

 

Funny thing is that I have a lot of ideas about the many rules of HWB, including benching old hardware (specifically old GPU’s with new CPU’s and stuff like that) and many others, but I am very lazy to write them all down

[Massman]

So..

If someone benches @ hipro's lab for 2 weeks own's the results.

Right?

 

 

And the problem with the results is........what?

 

Giorgios.th "benched" at hipro's lab for 2 weeks as other members of HOT,like elefsinaras etc but not at the same time/day and the same h/w...similar but not the same.

 

No, not correct here . The quote you are referring to is about sponsored stuff provided by a manufacturer to 1 person.

 

If someone benched 3D at Hipro's lab with Hipro's videocards the result belongs to Hipro. That's the reason why I asked to specify who owns the hardware.

 

Gorillakos, if you read this, drop me a message on MSN, need to ask something .

[Massman]

...

 

Yeap, pleasing everyone if pretty much undoable, however that does not mean that we should not stop rethinking rules and guidelines. HWBot is still very young as a bencher's platform and we still have to get rid of a few faults we couldn't think of in these 12-15 months.

 

First of all, we are of course only interested in the skill of the bencher, not in the size of his wallet and I can follow your thoughts perfectly. However, I have some remarks:

- We're not against buying and selling hardware, not at all, in despite of what you might think when reading the serial number idea. The idea is still just an idea and before we could even think of using it, we must work around some issues like you've mentioned (golden chips are sold to one another).

- Lending chips and cards to fellow benchers seems very harmless and is in fact very natural. But, how would you feel if one day you have the second place in one category and the next week you're sixth, just because the one golden chip has been lend out to five members from the same team?

- Your solution on above problem is a good solution, absolutely, but doesn't fit HWBot's intial policy when creating the hardware points, namely presenting a place where both the big shots ánd the little guys could bench together. We want to encourage those who only have 20 points to keep benching for the team. If you change the team's points rules to "only points for the best score", the little guys will have no challenge anymore.

 

Monstru, please write down your ideas and contact me somehow as most of your ideas are very very good .

[AN7 OverClocker]

No, not correct here . The quote you are referring to is about sponsored stuff provided by a manufacturer to 1 person.

 

If someone benched 3D at Hipro's lab with Hipro's videocards the result belongs to Hipro. That's the reason why I asked to specify who owns the hardware.

 

Gorillakos, if you read this, drop me a message on MSN, need to ask something .

 

Lets have an example.

 

I 'm benching at hipro's lab all 3dmarks with my videocards but with hipro's cpu+mobo+ram+etc.

 

The result belongs to --- ?

 

Remember that hipro posted a photo with 5 C2Q extreme cpu's at his lab.

 

 

 

@Monstru

 

You have a great point m8:)

[Massman]

If you're benching with your gpu's, you should upload the results of 3D benchmarks

[Monstru]

Yeap, pleasing everyone if pretty much undoable, however that does not mean that we should not stop rethinking rules and guidelines. HWBot is still very young as a bencher's platform and we still have to get rid of a few faults we couldn't think of in these 12-15 months.

 

I agree with that, at one point all rules should be final, and there is some work to do before we get there.

 

 

Lending chips and cards to fellow benchers seems very harmless and is in fact very natural. But, how would you feel if one day you have the second place in one category and the next week you're sixth, just because the one golden chip has been lend out to five members from the same team?

 

Well....that is a fact of life, and it isn't the first time it would happen (not that I would have second place or anything like that ) I'm still thinking to a solution for this situation.

 

Your solution on above problem is a good solution, absolutely, but doesn't fit HWBot's intial policy when creating the hardware points, namely presenting a place where both the big shots ánd the little guys could bench together. We want to encourage those who only have 20 points to keep benching for the team. If you change the team's points rules to "only points for the best score", the little guys will have no challenge anymore.

 

Well....first of all, the really big guys should be an example to us all, and they should not encourage swapping good hardware just to get points for the team. Second of all, I was talking about the best result with one piece of hardware (let's say QX9650 sn: xxx, not all QX9650's that all the members of one team have). I am sure that my solution is not flawless, but it has some truth in it, so maybe some version of it could help end this debate.

 

And you should think about another thing....Most of the problems I see people fighting about are caused by team rankings...Maybe we should think more about these rules, because I see some respected people really beginning to fight over some minor ego matters, and it is a pity... I prefer to consider them legends, to look up to them and learn something from their experience, not to see them fighting over a handful of points. Big guys should acknowledge their position, should be more aware about their influence, should have a higher moral standard than we small guys do, even if this is just a human nature issue in the end. And if they have a hard time doing that, HWBot should be the all knowingly grandfather that gently taps them on their back and helps them come back on the right track with good, clear, consistent rules. He...he....he...

 

Monstru, please write down your ideas and contact me somehow as most of your ideas are very very good .

 

Thank you for your words. I promise I shall write some things down and get in contact with you as soon as I get back from my holiday, which will be one of these days. Now I am still trying to recover from the new years eve party

[mariosalice]

You apparently don't like team working.

Then why do you have team rankings at hwbot?

 

You want proof that we own our hardware but on the other hand you say we can borrow our hardware from Intel or Nvidia or ATI or ...

Why not from one of our team mates?

 

You excluded Vantage from hwbot because we have to pay 8$, but you demand a proof of ownership for our CPU or our Video cards.

Then again you alone decide who brakes this rule and you ask for proofs of ownership.

No one else can check the ownership and the validity of the submitted results.

Why? Rules should be equal for everyone.

It is apparent from your latest acts that you do not want to be fare with your team members.

 

I believe that all you wanted to do is to prevent someone who benches all day and night to give away his/her own great second and third results to other members of his/her team.

 

Well, find a way to exclude those cases if you please.

Though you have no idea how you might accomplish this and I think you shouldn't.

You accepted the idea of team working in the first place, so you have to accept the consequences.

 

The moment you delete team rankings there will be no reason why someone might give away his/her own results.

 

My 2 cents.

[JimmyFox]

I agree with Mariosalice. If teamwork is not approved, then why are there teams in hwbot?

 

About that thing of publishing the serial number of the hardware.

I think it's at least... insufficient. Users buy and sell their hardware all the time.

Let's say I post the serial number of my A64 X2 4400+. I am rock stable @ 2660MHz. All my benchmarks are run at that frequency. So, let's say I sell this CPU to a friend of mine. He uses water cooling or something else and he achieves a rock stable frequency of 2800MHz and then he posts his results at hwbot. What happens then? I would really like to know. Should I have given him a receipt? How about publishing the receipts from our hardware purchases?

[Maxi]

Sorry for my late reply...

 

Hipro I have a question, is what Bill said here true?

 

Hipro is only pouring LN2.

 

If so then these results are only valid when posted to a 'Team Account', that is an account you setup for all H.O.T. community bench sessions. It's pretty simple, when you bench alone the results are yours. When you bench with someone else the results go into the Team account. These rules are designed to make things fun for everyone and allow for the frequent community bench sessions without causing unfair advantage to all HWBot teams. Remember it's up to the users and teams to keep the competiton fair and fun

 

If you have any questions please let me/any hwbot staff know.

 

Thanks,

 

maxi

[mariosalice]

Sorry for my late reply...

 

Hipro I have a question, is what Bill said here true?

 

 

 

If so then these results are only valid when posted to a 'Team Account', that is an account you setup for all H.O.T. community bench sessions. It's pretty simple, when you bench alone the results are yours. When you bench with someone else the results go into the Team account. These rules are designed to make things fun for everyone and allow for the frequent community bench sessions without causing unfair advantage to all HWBot teams. Remember it's up to the users and teams to keep the competiton fair and fun

 

If you have any questions please let me/any hwbot staff know.

 

Thanks,

 

maxi

 

Very smart tip.

Please do reset all LN2 results to team accounts since I know nobody benching alone, with LN2.

There are videos out there from most known overclockers showing this.

Or ask them the same way you asked Hipro5.

I was there watching.

Do I count also? :ws:

[Maxi]

Many people bench alone with LN2, including myself.

 

Let me clarify, please read this from mtzki.

 

http://hwbot.org/forum/showthread.php?t=104

 

Joint bench session results should be posted to either a team account, or a single user account only.

[Deanzo]

I believe that all you wanted to do is to prevent someone who benches all day and night to give away his/her own great second and third results to other members of his/her team.

 

Well, find a way to exclude those cases if you please.

Though you have no idea how you might accomplish this and I think you shouldn't.

You accepted the idea of team working in the first place, so you have to accept the consequences.

 

I'm sorry, but what the hell.

 

You honestly believe it's all right to pass on lower scores to other team members ?

 

Using each others HW is one thing, but using other members scores

 

Please do reset all LN2 results to team accounts since I know nobody benching alone, with LN2.

There are videos out there from most known overclockers showing this.

Or ask them the same way you asked Hipro5.

I was there watching.

Do I count also? :ws:

 

I do!

Have to, no team members live in my City. In fact none of the other benching team members live in NZ

Two pots on your own is not that hard.

[AN7 OverClocker]

 

or a single user account only.

The user that benched...not the other who was just controlling the LN2.

I dont think thats a "team benching session"

 

I'm sorry, but what the hell.

 

You honestly believe it's all right to pass on lower scores to other team members ?

 

Using each others HW is one thing, but using other members scores

 

 

 

I do!

Have to, no team members live in my City. In fact none of the other benching team members live in NZ

Two pots on your own is not that hard.

 

I think you misunderstand the post of mariosalice.

[Deanzo]

 

I think you misunderstand the post of mariosalice.

 

I hope that is the case.

[Massman]

...

 

I'm sorry, but we are trying to think out a solution and then you come posting this?

 

First of all, team rankings is what it all started from. Second, why should we drop the team rankings exactly? Because we can't control things? As far as I know, we have 250 teams where we have NO problems at all.

 

Since the beginning we have ALWAYS stated that we want people to bench together, but that they should follow some rules to get the rankings and the points okay. Since day, we always tried to follow those rules and have managed to do so pretty well, we only had a few big cases.

 

Now, we have this problem and suddenly everyone asks us why it is not allowed to share hardware in this way? To be honnest, I find it disturbing that you are actually saying "you can't know, so you can't judge". In the end, we judge if the scores are allowed on HWBot (so following the guidelines) or should not be allowed ('cause not following the guidelines). These are the rules of HWBot which we NEED in order to keep things clean .

 

For instance, do you think the following situation should be approved?

 

You have an insane E2180, which exceeds all other cpu's except mine. I have a golden chip which runs about 150MHz faster than yours. There's no problem, you're second and beaten by a better cpu.

BUT, today I have invited all my OCTB-friends and I will let them, one by one, bench the cpu on their system with their tweaks, in total the 19 members of my team.

Remember: it's their skill which is being tested.

So the day after the benching, all upload their score of the E2180 and turns out ... you're not 2nd anymore, you moved to place 21th, having no points at all (loss will be: 7 benches x 10 points = 70 points). Will you still be satisfied by the fact that "all used their own system, just their own skill"?

 

I agree, it might be a little over the edge, but this is simply what we have to deal with when redesigning the hardware sharing rules. If we DON'T set any rules, the rich teams will win ALL, which is NOT what we want.

 

Oh, for the record: teams are all about sharing knowledge and helping each other and helping the team with your effort on your system.

 

EDIT:// Would someone ask Hipro to finish his thread here? I have asked him a question on page2 which still has to be answered

[Monstru]

I like team benching, for us little guys is way better to bench with a friend, than alone. Nobody was talking about "dropping team benching", so I don't know why you people even talk about this.

 

Unfortunately Massman has a point with the example above. I know that that wouldn't happen in a million years, but seeing how the teams do everything in their power to get in front...I am beginning to have doubts. Remember....I agree with sharing hardware, but there has to be a way in which what Massman said above should be prevented, and I fear that we cannot count only on everybody's good will

[mariosalice]

I'm sorry, but we are trying to think out a solution and then you come posting this? ....

The idea of team benching is not a new one.

I know many teams benching together for a long time ago.

 

You feel that benching with the same golden hardware should not be approved.

No problem. You can easily design a new rule, put it on the forum for discussion, improve it, modify the rules, and then enforce them from now on.

 

What did you do?

You said you "suspect" some results were made with the same golden hardware and at the same time you decided to block the results.

Then you released new guidelines.

- only the owner of the processor may submit scores in processor related benches

- only the owner of the videocard may submit scores in videocard related benches

Enforce them from now on if you please. Not on past scores.

I feel you have no way to prove whether those rules are applied or not.

You can only decide by yourself alone which scores you approve or not based on the moon phase.

Is this the kind of hwbot that you want?

 

The above guidelines have nothing to do with the golden CPU example you gave.

I have nothing against team working and sharing or combining hardware.

Today one team has the golden CPU, tomorrow another team gets it.

Though in some cases it's not the golden CPU that makes the difference but the GOLDEN TEAM.

I like team working and I like those golden teams that make regular CPUs look like golden.

Don't you?

 

It is not a matter of rich teams either.

Rich teams do not straggle to find hardware.

Sponsored and rich members of a team can afford to have their own hardware and bench.

Your new guidelines do not affect those persons.

On the contrary they only affect poor teams and the poor members of a team.

[Massman]

You feel that benching with the same golden hardware should not be approved.

No problem. You can easily design a new rule, put it on the forum for discussion, improve it, modify the rules, and then enforce them from now on.

 

What did you do?

You said you "suspect" some results were made with the same golden hardware and at the same time you decided to block the results.

Then you released new guidelines.[/Quote]

 

The golden sample example is just to show you what would happen if we would allow hardware sharing. From your reaction I can see that you don't approve such situation, which is completely normal.

 

Enforce them from now on if you please. Not on past scores.

 

http://www.hwbot.org/hwbot.post.do?postId=689

10th of august 2007 - What past scores?

 

I feel you have no way to prove whether those rules are applied or not.

You can only decide by yourself alone which scores you approve or not based on the moon phase.

Is this the kind of hwbot that you want?

 

YES, we can only judge based on what we see and what information we get from people. This is HWBot and we have rules to comfort everyone, to keep things fair. If you don't agree with the rules, you can always suggest something (just PM a crew member), but you cannot just upload scores against te rules.

 

The above guidelines have nothing to do with the golden CPU example you gave.

I have nothing against team working and sharing or combining hardware.

Today one team has the golden CPU, tomorrow another team gets it.

Though in some cases it's not the golden CPU that makes the difference but the GOLDEN TEAM.

I like team working and I like those golden teams that make regular CPUs look like golden.

Don't you?

 

Teams are, to me, all about sharing: sharing knowledge. When it comes to the points system, we have avoid teams to share the hardware to get more points. The golden cpu example is a scenario which is very real when not using rules about hardware sharing. It's an example to show you what the problem is and why we those rules.

[knopflerbruce]

My solution to the shared HW/team score problem:

 

Only the best score for each CPU (or GPU)/benchmark combo will count as team points. Which means that if 20 people from OCTB post an e2180 score, only #1 will help the team.

[Massman]

Okay, fair solution

 

Another situation for you Knopflerbruce:

 

Let's say, OCTB is recruiting new members and you all know that HWBot is very keen on new members in the benchmark community. We like to see the experienced benchers learn the new members how benching exactly works. By introducing hardware points next to the global points, we tried to give the unexperienced users a chance to collect a few points for the team (as none of the new benchers will have 100+ points directly).

MassTWO, my newest OCTB'er, only has a E2180 to play with, but luckily he has a good one AND he manages to break into the top5 of every bench with his cpu. When he sees his account, he sees he has gained 15 points, making him 3000th, but of course he's only interested in the team's ranking.

Because I have bigger scores, he does not add points to the team's ranking and decides to quit as it doesn't even matter if he's on the team or not.

 

With the new GPU's, it's easy to get about 10 points on each bench just on aircooling. But if the points are not added to the team's total, why would anyone like to keep benching (especially when he's just trying it out)?

[mariosalice]

- For videocard benchmarks (3DMark01/03/05/06, Aquamark): upload the results to the account of the owner of the videocard.

- For processor benchmarks (SuperPi1M/32M, PCMark05, wPrime32M/1024M, PiFast): upload the results to the account of the owner of the processor.

- Uploading lower scores on other accounts than the one of owner of the hardware is not allowed.

.....

The complete set of rules will have it own page in the future, we're currently in the proces of gathering all programs which can be used as verification (cpuz ...) and we provide sample screenshot + how-to's.

Could you please give us a link with all the rules that apply?

I suppose this "ownership" rule is included.

We all have to respect your rules, as long as we can find them.

 

I have seen different opinions about ownership and I am a bit confused.

Can I buy a used CPU and upload my higher scores in case someone else did it before me?

Do I really have to be the owner of the CPU - GPU, or is it OK to use any hardware I want as long as no one else got any points from this?

 

I am also against bad moderation.

For example you suspect a score was made with the same hardware someone else used to get hwboints.

How can I prove that my hardware is not the same?

Or you take it down anyway, just because this is the way you feel?