POLICE department INTO hwbot?....

[hipro5]

Here's an e-mail two of my team members have got from hwbot Moderator/s.....

 

Hi guys!

 

We moderators at the HWbot are suspecting that you three guys have used

same hardware in some bench session. You have submitted almost similar

results to each account. That is not allowed in HWbot. Only the OWNER

of the parts can submit result. I know that you have a lot of sponsored

hardware, but that doesn't change this situation.

 

You have two (2) days time to fix your results. After that time limit I

will block two of those results and only the best result can stay. But

that best result must be from the same user in every benchmark. You

decide who it will be.

 

Thank you and I hope you understand this!

 

-xxx- HWbot HOF moderator.

 

 

ARE we making jokes here or what?......

 

According to this:

 

http://www.hwbot.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1352

 

Yes he can, the only limitation hwbot places on shared hardware is in the event of a team bench session...like bazx is inquiring about. In that case, the method Rich layed out above is preferred, or alternatively, all the results from that day may be uploaded to a single team account. The problem arises when during team sessions, more than one user uploads a result from the same rig on the same day, that is not allowed.

 

Again, it's not. As long as the bencher posting the result did all the work himself hwbot doesn't care. How do we discover team submissions? When several results come into the DB at nearly the same time using the same hardware from members of the same team, or when the screen shots are identical. Of course we cannot find all the occurances when this happens, the way hwbot works trust is given to the user. Hwbot can only do it's best to help keep things clean and make a fair and fun competition for everyone.

 

Yes you can do that Nazar, remember the key here is, if you do the bench the result belongs to you and you alone.

 

....it's OPPOSITE to this in the e-mail:

 

"Only the OWNER

of the parts can submit result."

 

....again:

 

"As long as the bencher posting the result did all the work himself hwbot doesn't care."

 

.....and....

 

"Only the OWNER

of the parts can submit result."

 

 

Now.....can someone explain us please what's going on here?....

 

I'll start....

 

PCMark2005:

 

1. User hipro5

 

http://service.futuremark.com/compare?pcm05=1265493

 

It was done with:

a. Blitz Extreme DDR3 mobo

b. 8800Ultra on LN2

c. Cellshock DDR3 PC14400 BLUE KIT (BETA) Ram modules

d. 3 x iRams - one mine and 2 of gprhellas'

e. was done on 12-13-2007

 

2. User gprhellas

 

http://service.futuremark.com/compare?pcm05=1278584

 

It was done with:

a. P5E64 WS PRO DDR3 mobo

b. 8800 GTX ON AIR with a gprhellas' "heasink patent"

c. Cellshock DDR3 PC14400 BLACK KIT RETAIL Ram modules

d. 3 x iRams - one mine and 2 of gprhellas'

e. was done on 12-20-2007

 

3. User elefsinaras

 

http://service.futuremark.com/compare?pcm05=1275704

 

It was done with:

a. Blitz Formula DDR2 mobo

b. 8800 GTX on it's stock heatsink cooling

c. Team Xtreme RETAIL Ram modules

d. 2 x iRams - one mine and one of gprhellas'

e. was done on 12-18-2007

 

Almost the same hardware was used for the other resaults too...

 

 

Not to write a lot more, please ask what else bench you want to ask about.....

 

We have:

2 x ASUS Blitz Extreme mobos

3 x ASUS P5E3 WS Pro mobos

2 x ASUS Blitz Formula mobos

2 x ASUS P5E64 WS Pro mobos

and some others like DFI, Foxconn, etc.

 

so there are about 13 - 15 mobos for 5 USERS (let's say)....

 

We have:

5 x 8800 ULtras

one on air and all the others moded for cascades/LN2

 

We have:

4 x 8800GTX

2 moded for LN2/cascade and 2 on air

 

6 x ATI HD2900XT

2 moded for LN2

2 moded for LN2 AND air (with gprhellas heatsink pattent - please gprhellas upload some fotos of it -

and 2 with stock cooling

EDIT cuz I forgot to write my 5 x 2900XTs..... 2 was sent to me by macci (PM him and ask him), 2 was sent to me by ASUS Taiwan and one as a gift from my friend k|ngp|n.....

ALL OF THEM ARE FLASHED WITH THE EXACT SAME BIOS at 850/950(990) IF this is what you mean....

 

We have:

6 x LN2 containers for CPUs

5 x LN2 containers for VGAs

 

We have:

8 x 1GB CellShock DDR3 Ram modules (one Blue kit mine and the others are gprhellas', phsilos' etc.

 

We have:

7 - 9 QX9650 CPUs (and still counting up)

 

We have:

OVER 16GB of 1GB Ram modules of DDR2

 

We have:

4 x LN2 dewars

1 x 26lt

1 x 30lt

1 x 50lt

1 x 90lt

 

We have:

EACH ONE OF US

Many DDR Maximizers..

 

We have:

Many HDs and TOO MANY DELTA fans each one of us

 

We have:

1200Watts PSUs by hipro-tech

1000Watts PSUs by Silverstone

1250Watts PSUs by Cooler Master

and MANY others

 

EACH user has benched ALONE and ONLY.....

 

only giorgos th. was helped by me and ONLY for pouring LN2 into the container.....

 

 

Now please tell us what more do you want from us?.....Thanks.....

 

 

Would you like to start posting pictures from all the hardware that we own?.....If so, tell it to us and we plesently will....

 

 

.

[richba5tard]

Maxi's quote does not reflect the current hwbot guidelines. 1Day is working hard in finalizing the hwbot guidelines, but in the mean time this is the rule to follow:

 

- only the owner of the processor may submit scores in processor related benches

- only the owner of the videocard may submit scores in videocard related benches

 

We know these rules are not 100% waterproof, and not even fair if it's the case of sponsored hardware. We are currently discussing changes to this rule in the crew. In the mean time, please follow the old rules.

[hipro5]

OK.....Let's start talking now....

 

Above there are 5 x QX9650 for 4 users as you say PLUS another 3 of them in tsan's place PLUS my ES....Is it OK this?....

 

Now ask what else you want and I'll answer...

 

 

EDIT:

A simple example with the EXACT SAME CPU USED at the EXACT SAME DAY.....

 

http://www.hwbot.org/result.do?resultId=682457

 

http://www.hwbot.org/result.do?resultId=682609

 

 

SO according to your words, ONE of these users MUST take down his result......No?.....

[Guest GoriLLakoS]

Limiting the results by this way :

 

- only the owner of the processor may submit scores in processor related benches

- only the owner of the videocard may submit scores in videocard related benches

 

IMO you will have to limit the cooling,RAM,Mobo etc too.

But you can see that the HOT members do not use the same hardware except some ecxeptions..

 

Benching 2 guys with the same hw but using their own skills is legal or ilegal?

[Massman]

We're currently working on a set of improved rules as we have noticed that sponsored hardware / team hardware is really making thing a lot more difficult.

 

I hear what your problem is (and I assume you can understand why this is a problem for us), but at this moment I have yet to find a solution for this issue.

 

Question: You're talking about "we won". Is the hardware property of the team?

[Massman]

Benching 2 guys with the same hw but using their own skills is legal or ilegal?

 

Benching with the exact same hardware (for 3D: the exact same vga's and for 2d: the exact same cpu) is indeed illegal as stated in the article about the new subteam rules.

[hipro5]

The harware it's not team's hardware.....It's user's hardware....

 

.....but as a team, we help each other by lenting them some things....

[Massman]

So, can you tell me who owns what hardware?

[hipro5]

So, can you tell me who owns what hardware?

 

Which one of ALL these (and much more)?....

 

For example, I own 2 x Blitz Extreme DDR3 Mobo BUT I benched with ONLY one of them......SO as you claim, the other one is "free" for someone else to bench......No?.....

[Massman]

Which one of ALL these (and much more)?....

 

For example, I own 2 x Blitz Extreme DDR3 Mobo BUT I benched with ONLY one of them......SO as you claim, the other one is "free" for someone else to bench......No?.....

 

You pay start with the GF88 and X29 and yorkies, I reckon that will already take a while

[hipro5]

You pay start with the GF88 and X29 and yorkies, I reckon that will already take a while

 

Which ATI's of all?.....

I own 5 of them

gprhellas has 2 or 3 of them

tsan has another two

Gorilakos another two

 

CPUs.....I own TWO (and THREE up to now - from today evening I will own 2)

tsan has two or three

gprhellas another one or two

 

8800s

I have here 4 of them

gprhellas has another 2 plus a GTS 512 now

tsan has another 2

Gorilakos has 4 or 5

 

Now sorry BUT I HAVE to leave you a bit (till the night) cuz I'll start benching with LN2 to take down the SINGLE VGA Aquamark3 and 2k1 that k|ngp|in took away from me.....

[Massman]

What does Elefsinaras and Giorgios th. own then?

 

Good luck with you WR attempts

[SF3D]

Well, maybe my e-mail wasn't written in best possible form, but why you Hipro are here to clear things out. That e-mail wasn't addressed to you?

 

Those three users (elefsinaras, Giorgos, Tsan) benched together and submit almost similar results with same hardware. If nobody owns that hardware it doesn't make this situation any different.

 

Only one of those three users can submit the best score from that bench session. It is clear practise and it is fair to everyone. We have done same kind of decisions with other users and they don't have problem with it. Why you can't accept this rule?

 

No hard feelings, just fair play to everyone.

[cyclone]

Hey, guys! What are these things all about? Somebody just decided to decrease the H.O.T.'s hwboint score in any possible way?

 

Does it really make sence who owns this or that hardware? I completely agree with the team-runs-rules, or with benchhing on exactly the same hardware rig by several people at a different time. I suppose team runs is clear for everyone who is able to read the rules; the second situation example: a certain hardware rig on Monday is used by X-member, on Wednesday - by Y, in a week - by Z. There may be some slight differences like using another memory modules, a 200 GB HDD instead of 80 GB, cooling the VGA with Ph-Ch, DIce or LN2 etc. This one is clear - the situation when the guys (everybody by him-/herself) make good use of the same rig & then post their results to hwbot is not allowed cuz it's a kind of cheating.

 

But when the benchers use different rigs (CPUs, MoBos, VGAs) - what's the problem? And does it really matter who owns the hardware which was used if it was not benched twice?

 

Or even when the components of the rig are of the same kind, can you definitely prove that it is actually the same hardware? I can't. Probably somewhen the IT manufacturers will flash every part with it's own S/N that could be viewed with CPU-Z, for example...

OK, let's get back to the sublect at hand. I suppose you won't suspect me in cheating if I will use exactly the same HW rig which <b>hipro5</b> used while making one of his records.. The reasons are clear - we live in different countries, we have never met before and we even don't know each other, we are not familiar. Then why should you suspect a few H.O.T. members? Just because all of them live in Greece? Even if everybody of them owns almost the same rig (QX9650 - because it's one of the fastest and most promising CPUs at the moment; ASUS Maximus Extreme - cuz it really is the best overclocking MoBo; GF8800Ultra - the fastest VGA) they shouldn't be allowed to post their scores at hwbot just because they all live in the same country/city?

 

So guys don't be silly... I'm a lawyer, and I know one of the main principles of jurisprudence: a person is innocent till his/her fault will not be proven. Can you really prove us that Greeks used the same hardware, benched together and posted the cheating results? Can U make us to believe this? I don't think so, do you?

 

Those three users (elefsinaras, Giorgos, Tsan) benched together and submit almost similar results with same hardware. If nobody owns that hardware it doesn't make this situation any different.

Only one of those three users can submit the best score from that bench session. It is clear practise and it is fair to everyone. We have done same kind of decisions with other users and they don't have problem with it. Why you can't accept this rule?

so I think that the upper SF3D's quote-statement is unfounded, and can't be accepted as a valid proof till trustworthy facts are not granted.

 

I understand that hwbot moderators should often rely on honesty of the benchers till we don't have a better cheat-hunting system here, so let's do this way and save time and nerves of each other.

In other case almost everybody could be suspected without a valid proof, and the rivals could slander even a conscientious bencher.

Hwbot Crew, don't make a stupid precedent please!

[Obijuan83]

Hey, guys! What are these things all about? Somebody just decided to decrease the H.O.T.'s hwboint score in any possible way?

 

Does it really make sence who owns this or that hardware? I completely agree with the team-runs-rules, or with benchhing on exactly the same hardware rig by several people at a different time. I suppose team runs is clear for everyone who is able to read the rules; the second situation example: a certain hardware rig on Monday is used by X-member, on Wednesday - by Y, in a week - by Z. There may be some slight differences like using another memory modules, a 200 GB HDD instead of 80 GB, cooling the VGA with Ph-Ch, DIce or LN2 etc. This one is clear - the situation when the guys (everybody by him-/herself) make good use of the same rig & then post their results to hwbot is not allowed cuz it's a kind of cheating.

 

But when the benchers use different rigs (CPUs, MoBos, VGAs) - what's the problem? And does it really matter who owns the hardware which was used if it was not benched twice?

 

Or even when the components of the rig are of the same kind, can you definitely prove that it is actually the same hardware? I can't. Probably somewhen the IT manufacturers will flash every part with it's own S/N that could be viewed with CPU-Z, for example...

OK, let's get back to the sublect at hand. I suppose you won't suspect me in cheating if I will use exactly the same HW rig which <b>hipro5</b> used while making one of his records.. The reasons are clear - we live in different countries, we have never met before and we even don't know each other, we are not familiar. Then why should you suspect a few H.O.T. members? Just because all of them live in Greece? Even if everybody of them owns almost the same rig (QX9650 - because it's one of the fastest and most promising CPUs at the moment; ASUS Maximus Extreme - cuz it really is the best overclocking MoBo; GF8800Ultra - the fastest VGA) they shouldn't be allowed to post their scores at hwbot just because they all live in the same country/city?

 

So guys don't be silly... I'm a lawyer, and I know one of the main principles of jurisprudence: a person is innocent till his/her fault will not be proven. Can you really prove us that Greeks used the same hardware, benched together and posted the cheating results? Can U make us to believe this? I don't think so, do you?

 

 

so I think that the upper SF3D's quote-statement is unfounded, and can't be accepted as a valid proof till trustworthy facts are not granted.

 

I understand that hwbot moderators should often rely on honesty of the benchers till we don't have a better cheat-hunting system here, so let's do this way and save time and nerves of each other.

In other case almost everybody could be suspected without a valid proof, and the rivals could slander even a conscientious bencher.

Hwbot Crew, don't make a stupid precedent please!

 

P.S. Don't think that I like H.O.T. more than Team OCX.. I'm for Justice and Fair Play only.

 

 

Open your eyes and read

 

http://www.thelab.gr/showthread.php?s=&threadid=44921&perpage=20&pagenumber=7

[Guest GoriLLakoS]

The main problem...maybe...it is that he does not know to read greek.

 

But, i am totally sure now who made this a sooooooooooo big topic.

 

 

Guys, the other 3 guys did not benched together...all of them are going to hipro's lab where the LN2 is placed..and they are benching alone.

Hipro is only pouring LN2.

[cyclone]

The main problem...maybe...it is that he does not know to read greek.[/qoute]

Ooops... English variant, please

 

Guys, the other 3 guys did not benched together...all of them are going to hipro's lab where the LN2 is placed..and they are benching alone.

Hipro is only pouring LN2.

IMHO nothing changed radically, especially when all the bench sessions had taken place at a different time & on multiple hardware rigs. To my mind, it's up to the Hellas guys to decide how the results should be posted... or many other scores present at hwbot at the moment should be treated the same way: the only one shall stay, cuz it's quite easy & possible to find some similar scores/situations in other teams. The only things you need is some time, being a polyglot and having a desire to do that ))

[o polonos]

The main problem...maybe...it is that he does not know to read greek.

But, i am totally sure now who made this a sooooooooooo big topic.

Ι wasn't involved with this matter. In addition, none of the HWBOT Moderators have seen the thread (or a part of it) whose link obijuan posted. This is open to all mods to tell you if i say the truth.

[Massman]

...

 

No one is trying to decrease HOT's points at all. The crew (and other users) just wondered how it's possible that so many members of one team score that high with pretty much the same setup. We have set a few ground rules regarding team runs and hardware sharing and those must be respected in any way. We have seen in the last few days/weeks that these rules are not covering all bases, so we're rewriting those again.

 

Can we be 100% sure that someone is not respecting those rules? No. We will always partially rely on what the users submit and always need to be careful when handling this kind of situations. That's why we did not block the results right away and tried to contact the users first.

 

I understand your background as a lawyer and I fully understand the principles of "innocent until proven guilty", but ... how on earth are we EVER going to provide evidence when we're not attending the bench session? We have to rely on what we see and try to make the correct conclusion. In fact, it should be really easy for us: if no user did something that can be seen as suspicious, we won't need result moderators. But sometimes we have certain circumstances in which users are confused by the rules or submit a wrong result by accident or even try to abuse hwbot to to gain more respect. These are the situation in which WE have to ask to the users what's happening . (btw: this is purely theory and none of these lines are referring to HOT!)

 

This last point can be in bold: WHY do people think -ONCE AGAIN- that HWBot is biased by certain forums???. For once and for all, HWBot is impartial when it comes to deciding what results should be considered suspicious.

 

If people have ideas of how the rules can be improved, you can always let us know.

 

To get back on topic: waiting untill Hipro is back from 3DMarking () and answer my last question.

[Nazar]

May be it will sound idiotic, but what U think about submition of CPU/VGA/Mobo serial number photo :-)

Cause my team members (including me) purchased 3 QX9650 the same day (as soon as CPU's finaly reached Moscow) and submited results within a few days.

[bazx]

"only the owner of the processor may submit scores in processor related benches"

 

how does this work with ES chips as intel or amd remain the owner of es chips

 

or is it to who ever it is given to

 

thanks baz

[Massman]

May be it will sound idiotic, but what U think about submition of CPU/VGA/Mobo serial number photo :-)

Cause my team members (including me) purchased 3 QX9650 the same day (as soon as CPU's finaly reached Moscow) and submited results within a few days.

 

That is in fact a very clever idea . Good thinking!

 

"only the owner of the processor may submit scores in processor related benches"

 

how does this work with ES chips as intel or amd remain the owner of es chips

 

or is it to who ever it is given to

 

thanks baz

 

Second question has a positive response - Yes, the owner is (in this case) the person to who the cpu has been given to (for review or benches or anything else).

[Guest GoriLLakoS]

Ι wasn't involved with this matter. In addition, none of the HWBOT Moderators have seen the thread (or a part of it) whose link obijuan posted. This is open to all mods to tell you if i say the truth.

 

@polonos I didn't tell anything about you...i think it was clear about obijuan.

 

But i cannot understand why in every forum ,english and greek, you are always telling me that you are not involved with matter regarding H.O.T.

 

Have you ever been involved to such a think and you are afraid of accusing you about something?

 

Strange things....

[o polonos]

@polonos I didn't tell anything about you...i think it was clear about obijuan.

 

But i cannot understand why in every forum ,english and greek, you are always telling me that you are not involved with matter regarding H.O.T.

 

Have you ever been involved to such a think and you are afraid of accusing you about something?

 

Strange things....

Moderators have rules m8

We don't take any action when somebody (team or just one user) can take it personal. And to be honnest many times im dont take any actions with your team to do not start this war again and again.

We dont hunting HOT or something and that's the message from me

[bazx]

ok thanks Massman

 

i have one more question

 

if say intel lent me a compleat rig say a sculltail to review

 

and it came with 2x 9775,ram,m/b and 3x sli gts and had to go back to them after a week

 

would i be able to keep the bench results

 

or would the results belong to intel as they are still the owner of the rig

and would want it back after the review

 

thanks baz