ES CPU Categories

[yosarianilives]

Wanted to start a discussion, and hopefully there's no drama around this, more of a what should we do with ES models of cpu (not qs). A good start of the discussion is distinguishing ES vs QS. A QS would be like a  slightly pre-production 10900k or highly binned chip from a vendor. I think QS is straightforward as they basically always line up to an existing retail SKU of cpu so I'd think you'd just sub as that like people currently do.

ES is a bit different as they are much earlier in the development cycle and often don't line up nicely with a retail cpu. So for those should we try making categories specifically for them as often they do have their own sku, either an amd PN or an intel code but are their own model. Sometimes they're even their own stepping. For example I have some phenom II and opteron ES chips that are C1 stepping and the first retail stepping is C2 so I'd venture to say it's basically a completely different cpu than any retail chips. But it's also really tough to prove what cpu is what based on screenshot as usually they just say engineering sample in cpuz. So maybe institute an obscure and confusing rule like you have to include a pic of the IHS? Obviously not a great solution but idk what else to do.

A third part of the discussion, what about existing ES categories for chips that might not have even had a proper ES pn, basically chips that might have only had 1x ever made? There seem to be a few that knof subbed with in AM3 era and I've never seen any es part number that lines up. Not saying we should or shouldn't remove those categories but I think maybe there should be a discussion.

Example: https://hwbot.org/hardware/processor/phenom_ii_x4_615_be_es/ 

Edited December 15, 2020 by yosarianilives

[Mr.Scott]

Much grey area, too much for proper moderation IMO.

As for Knute's subs, he has shit that nobody else has. It is a fact. I don't dispute any of his subs.

I once long ago questioned some of his subs. I've seen pics, and I question them no more.

[Antinomy]

11 hours ago, yosarianilives said:

So maybe institute an obscure and confusing rule like you have to include a pic of the IHS?

Agree on this one and not only for ES. I always provide fotos of strange CPUs.

 

11 hours ago, yosarianilives said:

what about existing ES categories for chips that might not have even had a proper ES pn, basically chips that might have only had 1x ever made?

Don't see a problem with that. I have a lot of stuff HWBot doesn't know about.
I even got AM3 CPUs that Knute hasn't benched, LOL.
I would recommend everyone running ES/QS/odd stuff to provide more info about it, especially if you can't google it in 2 minutes. I mean there are well-known ES and others aren't.

Edited December 16, 2020 by Antinomy

[Strunkenbold]

On 12/16/2020 at 8:02 AM, Antinomy said:

I even got AM3 CPUs that Knute hasn't benched, LOL.

WUT? That simply cant be right.

 

[Splave]

I think for modern hardware 00000 model id cpu's arent allowed if I remember right

[Leeghoofd]

For Elite I don't see a problem Allen, although they don't reflect the retails I know

[yosarianilives]

So reading this does this mean the unlocked 26 core cpus that are all the rage are just banned? They show a 0000 ID in cpuz and to make things even more vague surrounding them it seems that whoever is selling them on eBay often laser etches the q spec off the ihs so less clear what they are. Basically all that can be seen is what happens when you put them in a board, 26 cores work max and it comes stock 1.8 Ghz but is fully unlocked for oc. 

[Antinomy]

@yosarianilives, please specify what category are your talking about and what sort of unlocked are we speaking of?

[yosarianilives]

3 minutes ago, Antinomy said:

@yosarianilives, please specify what category are your talking about and what sort of unlocked are we speaking of?

Something like this, seller lists this as 3175x es but it isn't exactly the same thing as it maxes at 26 cores and apparently doesn't even work in all motherboards. Title is like a seller saying high clocked s771 xeons are same as qx9770 to help them sell. Cpu is fully unlocked multi and mem control for oc. I don't have one on hand yet but know people who do. https://www.ebay.com/itm/174552114807

Edited January 21, 2021 by yosarianilives

[Antinomy]

You see the 26 cores? That makes it not a 3175X. This SKU will get it's own 26-core category pretty like the mobile Coffee-lakes discussed not long ago.

Edited January 21, 2021 by Antinomy

[yosarianilives]

3 hours ago, Antinomy said:

You see the 26 cores? That makes it not a 3175X. This SKU will get it's own 26-core category pretty like the mobile Coffee-lakes discussed not long ago.

That's what I thought, although not sure what it can be called, especially if q spec can't be found. Might still be easiest to call it 3175x (26 core) even if that's not really what it is just because it instantly makes sense what it is

[SparkysAdventure]

@Mr.Scott Can you link me to some of this guy's odd submissions?

[Antinomy]

3 hours ago, yosarianilives said:

although not sure what it can be called

Smth like "Xeon-W (base freq.) ES". Having the core count it quite uniquely identifies this SKU.

My position for ES is approximately as follows: "apples to apples" - if ES follows specs of existing CPU (besides maybe stepping, TDP and unlocked multi), it goes to this category. Most ES don't have unlocked multi and most of them have lower o/c limit than retail (yeah, I remember Guldtown-A0).
If a ES has different specs (like 26 cores in your case which is not seen in any other Xeon-W), it gets it's own category. Anything that falls out of this can be investigated separately.

[Strunkenbold]

Would be interesting if hwinfo can show us the s-spec everytime. In that case we could try to ask Franck if he implements something similar for CPU-Z. 

[keeph8n]

46 minutes ago, Sparky's__Adventure said:

@Mr.Scott Can you link me to some of this guy's odd submissions?

Knopflerbruce. Go through his hardware library. Bunch of cool stuff in there.

[FUGGER]

There is a difference between XEON-W 8180 ES and 3175X, all 8180 ES are labeled as 3175X in this database.  There is different ES revisions.  Reviewers are sent QS and retails, QS is labeled as ES but will usually have a complete CPUID and marked (ES).  Normally reviewers will see QS chips.  

The difference is the max TDP, 3175X is 255W and the regular XEON is 205W

I can disable any cores. I can also run in Penta or Quad channel.

My chip is a retail 3175X

Edited January 21, 2021 by FUGGER

[FUGGER]

The ebay saller is a troll using 3175X to catch seaches, that is an early ES XEON 8170

I also believe that ebay seller is showing CPUID from two different chips, a 205W 8180 with cores disabled (overclocked) and a 165W 8170

Cisco Intel Xeon 8170 Hexacosa-core (26 Core) 2.10 GHz Processor Upgrade - Socket 3647 - 26 MB - 35.75 MB Cache - 64-bit Processing - 3.70 GHz Overclocking Speed - 14 nm - 165 W - 192.2°F (89°C) UCS-CPU-8170 (compsource.com)

Edited January 21, 2021 by FUGGER

[FUGGER]

QS chips are binned

00000 chips can drop cores and no one can tell skew @ TDP 

I dont chase points or I would have put more obscure stuff up in categories.

[yosarianilives]

2 hours ago, FUGGER said:

QS chips are binned

00000 chips can drop cores and no one can tell skew @ TDP 

I dont chase points or I would have put more obscure stuff up in categories.

Is the 8170 unlocked? I have seen people buy unlocked 26 core es cpus before. They are apparently picky on bios and board support. And if it's an unlocked 8xxx that would be insane, not that any 8s boards would support oc. 

 

Also to add on, apparently whoever sells these unlocked 26 core cpus from China tends to laser etch the q code off the ihs, making it even harder to tell difference in models. 

Edited January 21, 2021 by yosarianilives

[yosarianilives]

While looking at es to find more unlocked 26 cores I found this curio is finally moving closer to reasonable prices, there was never an e5 xeon with full unlocked 24 core die, only was e7 cpus on 2011-1 socket (same as 15 core cpu socket). There was however es chips experimenting with it, retail ended up 22 cores max https://www.ebay.com/itm/133384502454

[FUGGER]

I have been considering a chip identification guide as most of my ES chips are blank.

No way to read the QR code or cross reference the code given back.  But there are visible differences in socket 775 chips over the generations to tell what core it is for example.

[Antinomy]

2 hours ago, FUGGER said:

But there are visible differences in socket 775 chips over the generations to tell what core it is for example.

Well, the PCB color, thickness and SMD capacitors are different for different cores. But core can easily be identified by software. But not S-spec if we're speaking about unmarked CPUs.