Proposed functionality: people who do not participate in the hwboints league

[k|ngp|n]

Vince- There is always another side of the story. You are number one now, but like you said, you will not have time to bench all benchmarks in the future. So eventually you would loose your position which you have held very long time. You can't take it? I know you can, but why would you leave the race.

 

It would be a shame if few of the top guys pull their ranking/points off.. I will not do it, but does my ranking tell anything anymore in that case. Answer is no. So my benching will become meaningless if all other recent top 10 guys would disappear.

 

All those guys who will not participate in to this "race" are kind of silly if you ask me. Reasons they give are more and less reasonable for me. Some reasons are cultural and some are moral etc.

 

Come on..let's continue like before. This idea of HWpoints and overclocker league have done more good than bad. If there is 16 000 happy users and few top bechers who is not happy and not participating, so what? It is totally their personal problem.

 

If this place will become a world record database without the competition with points.. do we need it at all after that? I though this idea was the base of the whole site.

 

Who said this place will become a a world record database without competition points?

Why can't it be both? cuz right now it isnt both, only competition leauge with points.

 

I don't agree with you man, sorry. Who are these other "top ten" guys that will points out and make hwbot less meaningless for you?? I bet no one lol. But some other guys might actually post their records here who don't post here now, how does that not effect the site positievely? Like I said , I will still bench hard and do what I do ..but I wont submit to hwbot in the future if it's for leauge points cuz I dont want to be in the league anymore or have an effect on it. So if the other option is for me to stop submitting and slide just like everyone else, I can do that no problem and live with it. The problem is that in the future, hwbot probabaly won't have the highest scores posted here. How is that good for the site?

[k|ngp|n]

Thanks k|ngp|n, I understand a bit more now.

 

Your after an additional area for unreleased samples and early submissions to even the field a bit?

Then if/when the part gets released it would be the members option to move that run into the league area?

 

So if someone is given access to a new chip 3 months early, they run the benches and submit to it. The area is open to all comers and farther submission is up to the member. At the same time the mod's have a chance to check and make sure the benched part is equal to the final release and they would have final approval pending on it being equal and the members wish to submit?

 

yah something along those lines man It can fit alot of different scenarios..why should someone be allowed to compete in a competitive league with unlreleased hardware that no one else has access to right? This is a complete joke, and goes against the grain of any sort of fair competition. Why should one user be allowed to submit results against another competitor done with the help of 2-3 other guys? Even worse alot of these guys are benching together, and submitting multiple results using same kit maybe even same session, BELIEVE IT!

[bazx]

i agree with you 100%

 

hwbot has been going in the wrong direction for some time

[SF3D]

Well..yeah. Like I said, there is always another side of the story.

 

This will be the turning point of this site. I hope it will go in to better direction of course.

 

I agree on the part about this group who got hardware months before anyone else. We have to make some rules for it. Luckily there is still some smart people, who will not post those results, even they could.

 

We need more discussion and opinions. Now is the time to tell your thoughts.

[bazx]

Now is the time to tell your thoughts.

 

 

i will start the conversation off

 

once a moderator reaches the top 20 in the rankings here they should resign as moderator as there judgment can no longer be relied upon

 

they may make decisions based upon there need not the community

[SF3D]

Like I have done? Can you give examples?

 

Have I been unfair to someone on my job here or what?

[k|ngp|n]

Well..yeah. Like I said, there is always another side of the story.

 

This will be the turning point of this site. I hope it will go in to better direction of course.

 

I agree on the part about this group who got hardware months before anyone else. We have to make some rules for it. Luckily there is still some smart people, who will not post those results, even they could.

 

We need more discussion and opinions. Now is the time to tell your thoughts.

 

Fur sure lets discuss it

The HWBOT league is really unique, a game within itself and it's not about the individual records, but all of them combined and what that gets you in total points. This is completely different than just someone who specializes in one area of benching and spends all of their time perfecting that one area only. New system can recognize both.

 

How about those that work for manuf involved in overclocking? This could give those guys an opportunity to post their results up against other in the database, but not effect points race for the hwbot league. These guys got their positions becasue they are VERY good at what they do, we can still appreciate their hard work and not have it effect the points rankings in the leauge. No one cares about FM that much anymore, as HWBOT seems to have taken over as THE database to post your stuff at. I would much rather see all the top 3d scores in a particular bench at the top here at the bot, instead of just top league point getters.

Edited February 20, 2009 by k|ngp|n

[Massman]

i will start the conversation off

 

once a moderator reaches the top 20 in the rankings here they should resign as moderator as there judgment can no longer be relied upon

 

they may make decisions based upon there need not the community

 

There are a couple of reasons why I believe this is not correct:

 

1) In our judgment regarding high-end scores, we need people who are actually benching the high-end hardware with high-end cooling. Eventhough I have my LN2 sessions once in a while, I have little to no experience with overclocking on the highest level, let alone experience enough to make calls regarding validity. We need the people who are aware of the quirks and oddities in those benchmarks to help us form a well-informed decision. If we don't enlist these high-end benchers, I can assure you that the next time a top score is questioned, our decision will be called 'stupid' because we have 'no experience'.

 

2) HWBot still is a non-profit organisation, which means that no one of the crew gets paid to do any work. Why on earth would we demand people to retire once they hit the top20? What would happen is pretty simple: someone benches good, becomes top20 and retires from the hwbot crew ... no crew = no hwbot.

 

3) The only solution would be for the crew to acquire all hardware and do tests regarding oc scaling. As we have no money, this is not an option.

 

Please understand that the crew is not just one person: it's a group of people! In other words, even if someone would be using arguments for his own benefits, other crew members would counter those arguments if necessary. Believe me, we have a lot of vivid discussions, don't believe someone could just walk in and make a decision ;-).

[bazx]

There are a couple of reasons why I believe this is not correct:

 

1) In our judgment regarding high-end scores, we need people who are actually benching the high-end hardware with high-end cooling. Eventhough I have my LN2 sessions once in a while, I have little to no experience with overclocking on the highest level, let alone experience enough to make calls regarding validity. We need the people who are aware of the quirks and oddities in those benchmarks to help us form a well-informed decision. If we don't enlist these high-end benchers, I can assure you that the next time a top score is questioned, our decision will be called 'stupid' because we have 'no experience'.

 

2) HWBot still is a non-profit organisation, which means that no one of the crew gets paid to do any work. Why on earth would we demand people to retire once they hit the top20? What would happen is pretty simple: someone benches good, becomes top20 and retires from the hwbot crew ... no crew = no hwbot.

 

3) The only solution would be for the crew to acquire all hardware and do tests regarding oc scaling. As we have no money, this is not an option.

 

Please understand that the crew is not just one person: it's a group of people! In other words, even if someone would be using arguments for his own benefits, other crew members would counter those arguments if necessary. Believe me, we have a lot of vivid discussions, don't believe someone could just walk in and make a decision ;-).

 

 

i will do these in numeric order:

 

1. the community already does most of the spotting of bad scores the moderators only make the changes

also it should be enough for a "high end bench er" to serve the community without the need to take part in the rankings

 

2.once a moderator reaches a certain level of manufacture support there is a danger they will do whats best for there sponsor not the greater community

 

in order to maintain an independent view point they should either resign as mod or resign from the rankings

 

do not believe it would be hard to find moderators to fill any vacancies if some moderators felt they needed a break this is a large community and many would like the chance to influence the decision making here

 

3.as i said above the community can and does provide most if not all the information to for fill this task already

[CaNNon]

We need more discussion and opinions. Now is the time to tell your thoughts.

 

Exactly SF3D, it's pretty hard to have a fair vote on vague ideas. It should be a more hashed out plan.

I would also ask this tread be kept on topic and a mod/admin make a "update concept post" every few pages (just so everyone will be on same track) and this should include a note on anything that the site can or can't do. So members could make alternate suggestions until a fair solution is found.

[Massman]

Cannon, although discussion between crew and members can be very interesting (as seen in the past), it's actually very difficult to find a fair solution brought up in the community and also possible in terms of coding. The feature proposal you're voting on right now has already been subject of discussion and different plans had to be tossed away because it would've been too difficult to code in a reasonable time-frame. The two (well, three) options are a breakdown of the two remaining concepts that are doable to code. The first one requires less time, but allows only partial withdrawal from the leagues whereas the second option takes a bit more time (doable though) but gives us a series of possibilities to add small subfeatures (due to method of coding).

 

Even for people inside the crew it's sometimes very difficult to find a working solution: most of the time, we have to throw away plans because they are just too time-consuming. In this case, one moment of Jmke's geniality made it possible to work out a decent way to code a feature that allows people not to compete in the league, but still share the scores with the community and still have a personal database of benchmark scores.

 

Of course, we are still interested in ideas/suggestions/remarks regarding hwbot :-). We'll do what we can to implent the idea, but please don't expect us (well, RB mainly) to add the feature instantly .

[knopflerbruce]

i will do these in numeric order:

 

1. the community already does most of the spotting of bad scores the moderators only make the changes

also it should be enough for a "high end bench er" to serve the community without the need to take part in the rankings

 

2.once a moderator reaches a certain level of manufacture support there is a danger they will do whats best for there sponsor not the greater community

 

in order to maintain an independent view point they should either resign as mod or resign from the rankings

 

do not believe it would be hard to find moderators to fill any vacancies if some moderators felt they needed a break this is a large community and many would like the chance to influence the decision making here

 

3.as i said above the community can and does provide most if not all the information to for fill this task already

 

The best would be to have mods from all ranges of OC'ers. Including top 20 and sponsored benchers. I can't miagine any bencher will be able to to what you describe under #2 there, it'll be too easy to spot + one mod doesn't decide much on his own.

 

I also think that ES HW should not be allowed to get global points UNTIL that particular part is available to the public. Like, if the i7 975 is never released, then the benchers should get HW points, but NO global points. I have a feeling it may be hard to code that, but in theory it would be a VERY fair way of dealing with that problem someone described earlier in this thread:)

 

Lots of commetns on different stuff here, but anyways... if B is the way we go, will there be a WR list of some kind, with results and ranking for that particular bench - but without points for the scores that belong to a user that doesn't want to be a part of the Global league?

[CaNNon]

Cannon, although discussion between crew and members can be very interesting (as seen in the past), it's actually very difficult to find a fair solution brought up in the community and also possible in terms of coding. The feature proposal you're voting on right now has already been subject of discussion and different plans had to be tossed away because it would've been too difficult to code in a reasonable time-frame. The two (well, three) options are a breakdown of the two remaining concepts that are doable to code. The first one requires less time, but allows only partial withdrawal from the leagues whereas the second option takes a bit more time (doable though) but gives us a series of possibilities to add small subfeatures (due to method of coding).

 

Even for people inside the crew it's sometimes very difficult to find a working solution: most of the time, we have to throw away plans because they are just too time-consuming. In this case, one moment of Jmke's geniality made it possible to work out a decent way to code a feature that allows people not to compete in the league, but still share the scores with the community and still have a personal database of benchmark scores.

 

Of course, we are still interested in ideas/suggestions/remarks regarding hwbot :-). We'll do what we can to implent the idea, but please don't expect us (well, RB mainly) to add the feature instantly .

 

I understand the coding issues very well, and have no problem waiting a for a feature.

[k|ngp|n]

Ideally, if you can have everything almost the same as it is now, but just be able to remove the points/participation in the leauge..that would be nice. Those who check no points option won't be visible in any league rankings either. Maybe just one central HWBOT world record ranking list with everyone together both league and non. 99% of the list will be league guys for sure.

Ya know..the manuf. involvement/prerelease stuff seems to be an issue that is dividing. Your new system can address this. Give these guys(amd/intel/ATI/nvidia) a place for them to battle it out. It would be cool to see macci, kinc, shamino etc all battling each other here with ANY kind of hardware, ES, pre-release/current/old whatever.. and not disturbing the points rankings. No one has anything to complain about and we can all be happy and still appreciate what these guys do.

It can only be positive for the site and easy solution to deal with things that some would call "unfair".

Hwbot should be a venue for up and comers to show off thier skillz or beginners to get their start. Not for guys that have advantages because they work for X company or have access to lots of HW for binning just to whore top spots in the leauge lol

 

It should also be that place where we can come to see the REALLY crazy stuff with the big $$$$$ no budget rigs, killer silicon, and big manuf involvement. Pre-release stuff is cool, but in the right context. You can't mix the two. It's the right thing to do at just the right time I think.

Edited February 21, 2009 by k|ngp|n

[knopflerbruce]

Ideally, if you can have everything almost the same as it is now, but just be able to remove the points/participation in the leauge..that would be nice. Those who check no points option won't be visible in any league rankings either. Maybe just one central HWBOT world record ranking list with everyone together both league and non. 99% of the list will be league guys for sure.

Ya know..the manuf. involvement/prerelease stuff seems to be an issue that is dividing. Your new system can address this. Give these guys(amd/intel/ATI/nvidia) a place for them to battle it out. It would be cool to see macci, kinc, shamino etc all battling each other here with ANY kind of hardware, ES, pre-release/current/old whatever.. and not disturbing the points rankings. No one has anything to complain about and we can all be happy and still appreciate what these guys do.

It can only be positive for the site and easy solution to deal with things that some would call "unfair".

Hwbot should be a venue for up and comers to show off thier skillz or beginners to get their start. Not for guys that have advantages because they work for X company or have access to lots of HW for binning just to whore top spots in the leauge lol

 

It should also be that place where we can come to see the REALLY crazy stuff with the big $$$$$ no budget rigs, killer silicon, and big manuf involvement. Pre-release stuff is cool, but in the right context. You can't mix the two. It's the right thing to do at just the right time I think.

 

+1

[chispy]

Ideally, if you can have everything almost the same as it is now, but just be able to remove the points/participation in the leauge..that would be nice. Those who check no points option won't be visible in any league rankings either. Maybe just one central HWBOT world record ranking list with everyone together both league and non. 99% of the list will be league guys for sure.

Ya know..the manuf. involvement/prerelease stuff seems to be an issue that is dividing. Your new system can address this. Give these guys(amd/intel/ATI/nvidia) a place for them to battle it out. It would be cool to see macci, kinc, shamino etc all battling each other here with ANY kind of hardware, ES, pre-release/current/old whatever.. and not disturbing the points rankings. No one has anything to complain about and we can all be happy and still appreciate what these guys do.

It can only be positive for the site and easy solution to deal with things that some would call "unfair".

Hwbot should be a venue for up and comers to show off thier skillz or beginners to get their start. Not for guys that have advantages because they work for X company or have access to lots of HW for binning just to whore top spots in the leauge lol

 

It should also be that place where we can come to see the REALLY crazy stuff with the big $$$$$ no budget rigs, killer silicon, and big manuf involvement. Pre-release stuff is cool, but in the right context. You can't mix the two. It's the right thing to do at just the right time I think.

 

+ 2 , Well said Vince :celebration:. I am absolutly 100% with you here.

PS. I love my new F1ee bro

Edited February 22, 2009 by chispy

[Buckeye]

I really enjoy watching you top guys/teams race your hardware, what ever type it may be, released or not.

 

Having a top guy/team not post scores would be like a top NASCAR/Indy/Formula1 driver race and cross the finish line but not get credit for the race, why be there then.

 

As a pretty new nwbot person I know that there will be equipment that I simply cannot get or be even as good a bencher as the top guys but I strive to reach that level.

 

My goal is to compete, but I really like to see the top guys/teams dual it out !

 

I like it the way it is right now, with no changes.

[k|ngp|n]

I really enjoy watching you top guys/teams race your hardware, what ever type it may be, released or not.

 

Having a top guy/team not post scores would be like a top NASCAR/Indy/Formula1 driver race and cross the finish line but not get credit for the race, why be there then.

 

As a pretty new nwbot person I know that there will be equipment that I simply cannot get or be even as good a bencher as the top guys but I strive to reach that level.

 

My goal is to compete, but I really like to see the top guys/teams dual it out !

 

I like it the way it is right now, with no changes.

 

Good input. I understand what you mean. I like to watch it too .

How about when someone else who doesn't belong to hwbot benching league makes a world record and doesn't submit it here? Still counts as wr and higest score to date. If you make the bench, make the score..you get credit in the community. Credit really is only recognition by your peers, it doesnt have to be in the form of hwboints for it to mean something more, especially if your not in the league and those points dont matter. A top 3d score is a top 3d score, doesn't matter where it's entered or shown.

 

Discussion and lots of opinions are good. If you guys want hwbot as it is (just a pure innner benching league) and not more of an overclocking database for those that don't want to compete/can't compete/shouldn't compete in the league or take points away from others who do, thats fine. I do think there is a need for something like this though.

 

I like hwbot and everything this site offers beyond the points league. The graphs, stats, comparisons, and search features are great.

Edited February 22, 2009 by k|ngp|n

[stealth]

Give these guys(amd/intel/ATI/nvidia) a place for them to battle it out. It would be cool to see macci, kinc, shamino etc all battling each other here with ANY kind of hardware, ES, pre-release/current/old whatever.. and not disturbing the points rankings. No one has anything to complain about and we can all be happy and still appreciate what these guys do.

 

I agree with this,it will be great if we have all these guys in here.

 

For me personally, I most likely will pull out of the league as soon as/if this feature is implemented.

 

But i don't like the idea of you pull out of the league.

 

If we can have both,these guys in here and you in the league will be fine.

 

If i have to choose between the two i will go for the second.

 

stealth

[Monstru]

Ideally, if you can have everything almost the same as it is now, but just be able to remove the points/participation in the leauge..that would be nice. Those who check no points option won't be visible in any league rankings either. Maybe just one central HWBOT world record ranking list with everyone together both league and non. 99% of the list will be league guys for sure.

Ya know..the manuf. involvement/prerelease stuff seems to be an issue that is dividing. Your new system can address this. Give these guys(amd/intel/ATI/nvidia) a place for them to battle it out. It would be cool to see macci, kinc, shamino etc all battling each other here with ANY kind of hardware, ES, pre-release/current/old whatever.. and not disturbing the points rankings. No one has anything to complain about and we can all be happy and still appreciate what these guys do.

It can only be positive for the site and easy solution to deal with things that some would call "unfair".

Hwbot should be a venue for up and comers to show off thier skillz or beginners to get their start. Not for guys that have advantages because they work for X company or have access to lots of HW for binning just to whore top spots in the leauge lol

 

It should also be that place where we can come to see the REALLY crazy stuff with the big $$$$$ no budget rigs, killer silicon, and big manuf involvement. Pre-release stuff is cool, but in the right context. You can't mix the two. It's the right thing to do at just the right time I think.

 

Respect, this is a truly honorable point of view.

 

 

One thing that needs to change for sure is having ALL the WR's in one place. If doing what you guys are saying will bring everybody here and we will be able to see all WR's in one place, then be it.

[knopflerbruce]

Respect, this is a truly honorable point of view.

 

 

One thing that needs to change for sure is having ALL the WR's in one place. If doing what you guys are saying will bring everybody here and we will be able to see all WR's in one place, then be it.

 

...will this bring the Chinese to HWBot? They bench alot, but don't post here.

[knopflerbruce]

we need somebody to translate the submission page to Chinese:)

 

Really? I thought you needed some basic English just to be able to bench properly, nearly all the info on the web is in that language:p The front page isn't exactly Harvard-level;)

 

I'm thinking more along the lines of someone making a post in the forums "they" use, like the overclocker magazine did on a few sites a while ago.

[Massman]

I don't want to jam hwbot down people's throats . They'll find the site, either by themselves or via other members.

[Trouffman]

Humm guys,

 

Separating 'leagues can be ok but it'll be at the 'appreciation of each OCer..'

 

But this is not the main point I wanna talk about.

 

As more and more of us can got hardware from different ways, sometimes buying it, sometimes as gift from company, sometimes it's just press samples...

 

Why not making a check box near each components like "This hardware is sponsored"or anythink else that you'll check if you got the Hardware in hand from a company ?

 

You can leave the ranking with everyone (hwboint leaguer / non hwboint leaguers etc.) end see who is sponsored or not...

 

Doing this 'by hardware part' make much more sense than a global 'sponsored account' because sometimes I use my own hardware and just the memory is not really mine (press sample but for a long long long time )

 

[miahallen]

yah something along those lines man It can fit alot of different scenarios..why should someone be allowed to compete in a competitive league with unlreleased hardware that no one else has access to right? This is a complete joke, and goes against the grain of any sort of fair competition. Why should one user be allowed to submit results against another competitor done with the help of 2-3 other guys? Even worse alot of these guys are benching together, and submitting multiple results using same kit maybe even same session, BELIEVE IT!

 

The problem I see with the proposed solution is that it'll be at the discresion of the submitter...and if they are dishonest in the first place, why would they chose this option? If all were honest, then it'd be an ideal solution.

 

How about when someone else who doesn't belong to hwbot benching league makes a world record and doesn't submit it here? Still counts as wr and higest score to date. If you make the bench, make the score..you get credit in the community. Credit really is only recognition by your peers, it doesnt have to be in the form of hwboints for it to mean something more, especially if your not in the league and those points dont matter. A top 3d score is a top 3d score, doesn't matter where it's entered or shown.

 

+1 For me, this is the reason I voted for "option B".

 

BTW - I'm loving my new pots, thanks!

 

Why not making a check box near each components like "This hardware is sponsored"or anythink else that you'll check if you got the Hardware in hand from a company ?

 

You can leave the ranking with everyone (hwboint leaguer / non hwboint leaguers etc.) end see who is sponsored or not...

 

Doing this 'by hardware part' make much more sense than a global 'sponsored account' because sometimes I use my own hardware and just the memory is not really mine (press sample but for a long long long time )

 

 

What's up Trouffman?

 

Seems like a good idea to me, and would be doable in addition to option B. But again, I'm sure some people would hide the fact, so I don't see that it would be a reliable system. But, still a nice idea.