Common bench party

[Massman]

Flash bios => change S/N => share

[Benji Tshi]

So tell me which can i do which will be enough for you ?

[anvil]

Unfortunately nothing can be done to avoid this kind of suspicion, or hardly.

 

The best way I would say, is to submit scores at different times. Submitted at different times could mean benched at different times.

 

But I don't think moderation will call you and Jmax as cheaters if you are submitting relatively close scores. Since these scores are not top 1 and 2 in global ranking I don't think there will be a problem.

 

But if you are submitting top 1 and 2 scores, you will have to prove it very accurately. Because knowledge and tweaks can no longer be explanations for very scores at some points. To reach the summit you need really really overclockable hardware, and this cannot be shared as knowledge can be.

[knopflerbruce]

Flash bios => change S/N => share

 

Not if the S/N is stored on some chip that can't be flashed;) It's not realistic, I know, but it would solve the problem.

[Massman]

Good thinking Knut!

[TheKarmakazi]

Now I need something clarified for me. Anvil says using the best cpu for 3d benches is illegal. I thought that wasnt considered sharing? The rules state for 3d benchmarks the vgas must be your own, so I took that to mean cpu/motherboard/ram could be someone elses?

Edited April 21, 2009 by TheKarmakazi

[Massman]

That is correct, KarmaK

[TheKarmakazi]

Sry to double post!

 

Also pictures CAN be a very valid way of checking certain things. I.E. if team XXX has 3 members who all submit gtx295 scores with LN2 clocks. A picture could show they all have prepped cards for ln2 with pots etc?

[Benji Tshi]

So, for example, with Jmax and Casimir, we will choose the best 965, and put all our vgas on the rig. So the results will depend only on the GPUs frequencies...

[jmax_oc]

Hmm, I don't know what to write here but if we take vids and pictures, if we told HWBot in advance about such overclocking meeting, we cannot make more... So if you don't trust us or if you will block our scores for hardware sharing, there is a huge problem since we are the most 'clean' with the most things attesting that we didn't share.

 

Benji will do LN2 benches with his GTX285 (E86 + i7 965). If he have time, GTX295 aircooling on both platforms

Casimir will make all the score which were blocked for subtests lack (GTX295 air on E8600 + i7 965)

Concerning me, I will pass my 2 GTX 295 under LN2 (E86 + i7 965) : SLI tests + single tests.

 

Anvil, we have a CPU capable to bench 5GHz 3D whereas others can only benched at 4.9GHz. So we will use it to get the best score possible. It's 100% allowed by rules so don't panic if you use some times the best CPU we have.

[anvil]

I (and other people in this thread) never accused you of hardware sharing.

 

In my sentences I was only talking about the worst case scenario.

 

Concerning sharing CPU for 3D benchmarks of course it is allowed by Hwbot. Or I would say, "it is still allowed".

I'm saying this because some 3D benchmarks are no longer 3D benchmark but CPU benchmarks. At the time of their release they were 3D benchmarks, but now after both evolutions of CPUs and GPUs, they are no longer 3D benchmark.

 

Whatever will be the evolution of GPUs, the future Intel Processors will take the first place in 3DMark01, this is a reality. Hbwot crew will have to take into account this. And when those 3D benchmarks will be openly described as CPU limited benchmark by Hwbot (and others), the CPU sharing will no longer be allowed on those latter.

 

So yes Jmax, it is allowed, but do it while it is still possible.

 

PS: I am talking about future Intel Processors, but what if someone found a i7 capable of 5.8 Ghz? Will this guy be allowed to share his CPU to all his team members? I really doubt about it.

[TheKarmakazi]

Concerning sharing CPU for 3D benchmarks of course it is allowed by Hwbot. Or I would say, "it is still allowed".

I'm saying this because some 3D benchmarks are no longer 3D benchmark but CPU benchmarks. At the time of their release they were 3D benchmarks, but now after both evolutions of CPUs and GPUs, they are no longer 3D benchmark.

 

Whatever will be the evolution of GPUs, the future Intel Processors will take the first place in 3DMark01, this is a reality. Hbwot crew will have to take into account this. And when those 3D benchmarks will be openly described as CPU limited benchmark by Hwbot (and others), the CPU sharing will no longer be allowed on those latter.

 

So yes Jmax, it is allowed, but do it while it is still possible.

 

PS: I am talking about future Intel Processors, but what if someone found a i7 capable of 5.8 Ghz? Will this guy be allowed to share his CPU to all his team members? I really doubt about it.

 

I do not think there are any plans for what you are talking about here. (At least nothing even posted in the VIP section yet about this). I also think that would be a very bad rule to make. There is already enough suspicion etc about sharing vgas in vga benches. If now you have to include cpu in that it will be ridiculous. Leave the rules the way they are, it works perfect 99.9% of the time. And no system of rules and verifications will EVER be 100% perfect. Not to mentino a 3D benchmark is a 3D benchmark even if it is cpu dependent. Can you run AM3 without a VGA? I didnt think so, that means its a 3D bench

 

Also Im not sure what you mean by "openly described as CPU limited benchmark by Hwbot (and others)"... Who are the "others" the only people that matter to hwbot rules are hwbot

Edited April 21, 2009 by TheKarmakazi

[anvil]

No offence but : The VIP section of Hwbot is not making the future as far as I know. With the evolution of CPUs, it will be possible to have World Record of some 3D benchmarks without the highest GPU. This is a fact. It has not happened yet but it will. Hwbot will have to deal with that.

 

Suspicion is good for keeping this clear and fair, if suspicion was not present, you will have the 3D01 WR @ 300 000 3DMarks.

 

Leaving the rules as they are have never been a good strategy. Just look at the recent issue concerning Wprime 2.0. If nothing had been made, people will still be able to submit scores with a non allowed release of Wprime.

 

If including CPU in hardware sharing is ridiculous, I would say that more ridiculous is not to take into account that a CPU score can be more important than a GPU score in a global one.

 

About "openly described as CPU limited benchmark by Hwbot (and others)":

I just wanted to say that hwbot is not alone on earth.

Just an theoretical example: If Hwbot is against one rule, and that all the overclocking community is defending this rule, I'm pretty sure that Hwbot will have to accept this rule to some extent.

And now a real example: With R1ch we were the first ones criticizing the issue with Wprime 2.0 (http://www.hwbot.org/forum/showthread.php?t=2638). My first post about this problem has been made in november 2008 (http://www.hwbot.org/forum/showthread.php?t=2374).

 

I'm not saying that I'm proud that R1ch and I finally succeed in making our ideas validated, because this would be totally wrong.

But instead I'm saying that I am really proud that Hwbot moderation is able of criticizing its own rules, in order to make them better, because this rules are completely time-dependant.

 

I don't know if my english is clear enough, but if one of you guys feel just one inch of insult in my sentences, you are making a mistake because I never meant this to happen.

 

EDIT:

 

@jmke : I've never said that such a rule was already existing.

Edited April 21, 2009 by anvil

[TheKarmakazi]

No offence but : The VIP section of Hwbot is not making the future as far as I know. With the evolution of CPUs, it will be possible to have World Record of some 3D benchmarks without the highest GPU. This is a fact. It has not happened yet but it will. Hwbot will have to deal with that.

 

The VIP section is EXACTLY what makes the future of the bot

 

Leaving the rules as they are have never been a good strategy. Just look at the recent issue concerning Wprime 2.0. If nothing had been made, people will still be able to submit scores with a non allowed release of Wprime.

 

I mentioned only this one rule I would leave the same. Keep cpu/ram/mobo sharing allowed in 3D benchmarks. I didnt mention wprime or any other rule. Obviously using a version of the bench software that is not supported by the rules is illegal.

 

If including CPU in hardware sharing is ridiculous, I would say that more ridiculous is not to take into account that a CPU score can be more important than a GPU score in a global one.

 

I believe this argument was made and got voted down before current rules were set in place. Do you think mods just come up with rules and implement them without considering their consequences?

 

I just wanted to say that hwbot is not alone on earth.

Just an theoretical example: If Hwbot is against one rule, and that all the overclocking community is defending this rule, I'm pretty sure that Hwbot will have to accept this rule to some extent.

 

AFAIK hwbots operation is completely up to the development team. Also, I have heard no other people complain about cpu sharing in a 3D benchmark. I also see nothing wrong with it. It promotes teamwork!

 

Also if this happened where does it end? Can people then not share custom made OS, or registry tweaks? Or how about sharing RAM or motherboards? There would be no end to it.

[Benji Tshi]

Just want to say that if sharing is not allowed, selling a cpu may be forbidden...Because, for example, if Jmax sell his cpu, i can buy it and then i will be able to use it. But if we look the database side of hwbot, it's a bit stupid because the same cpu will appears two times.

[knopflerbruce]

Just want to say that if sharing is not allowed, selling a cpu may be forbidden...Because, for example, if Jmax sell his cpu, i can buy it and then i will be able to use it. But if we look the database side of hwbot, it's a bit stupid because the same cpu will appears two times.

 

Alot of people need to sell their CPUs/GPUs to be able to afford to hottest gear, not allowing selling would make it alot harder to bench. Buying a proven overclocker is not wrong, borrowing it for a session is.

[anvil]

The VIP section is EXACTLY what makes the future of the bot

 

I know that VIP sections make the future of Hwbot, but only the CLOSE future. Perhaps I could have precise this point in my previous posts. The thing I meant is that this is not because Hwbot moderation is not thinking about it right now that they will never think about later. Do you see my point?

 

I believe this argument was made and got voted down before current rules were set in place. Do you think mods just come up with rules and implement them without considering their consequences?

 

I'm completely aware of the decisions that the moderation is making, and I participated to all the poll they made at the beginning of Hwbot. And their decision are fully fair for me.

 

 

AFAIK hwbots operation is completely up to the development team. Also, I have heard no other people complain about cpu sharing in a 3D benchmark. I also see nothing wrong with it. It promotes teamwork!

 

I'm not complaining about CPU sharing at all. It just makes sense to me that this will be a problem in the future. Perhaps I'm the first sharing this idea to the community, but when it's new, it's new, so it is not widely spread. I completely agree that this promotes teamwork, but it will (in the future again, not nowadays) also promotes teamextrapoints.

 

Also if this happened where does it end? Can people then not share custom made OS, or registry tweaks? Or how about sharing RAM or motherboards? There would be no end to it.

 

Tweaks and customization are not physical elements so they can fully be shared. And hopefully they are shared.

For RAMs and Motherboards I would say that they are not the limiting hardware, so sharing moderation cannot be applied to these components.

 

 

@ Benji: You can only share items that you own. When you do not own it anymore, it is by definition not shared.

[marmott]

maybe it's not the place for this kind of explanations Anvil

 

if you want to redo Hwbot completely create your own thread.

[chispy]

maybe it's not the place for this kind of explanations Anvil

 

if you want to redo Hwbot completely create your own thread.

 

+1 , well said bro i second that :celebration:

[Benji Tshi]

Make your own thread, because would like to go on this with you, but everything sais here is really interesting !

 

So, if we pick best mainbaord, best ram and best cpu, each one can use it with its own hardware ? As i have said, only difference will be vga clocks as allowed by the rules.

 

 

Just an example. On 4 different 295 (2 Zotac and 2 Gainward), here is the clocks some french guys got :

740/1200

740/1215

721/1215

720/1150

 

Considering that, you can see that they are all about the same frequencies.

And Top3, top20, top40 or unranked shouldn't be different. There is really suspicious results on top5, but no one never blocked them only because it was submitted second several weeks after first...So we can say that system failed because the suspicion only depends on the date of submission....:(

Edited April 22, 2009 by Benji Tshi

[Massman]

As far as I'm concerned, we don't have to talk about hardware sharing by JMH. This thread is to alert people that they will be having a joined benchmark session, so that no one is left in the unknown.

[Benji Tshi]

This thread is here to prevent issues about sharing, not only to inform people about our bench party

[dinos22]

what is it with this forum

why does everyone thread crap in someone else's thread to make a point of something

 

why dont you just have a quiet word with moderators in providing them feedback and then let them decide on the best course of action

 

sorry for thread crapping hahahah

[anvil]

I really not agree with thread crapping or pollution or whatever...

If crapping was made, be sure that other words would have been employed.

 

The main topic of this thread had just a shift, but at least it was alive and interesting!

 

I explained to them some things because, even after their last BIG thread on the forum, it seems that JMHs don't understand Hwbot moderation (i.e. blocked scores, and the purpose of event notification beforehand).

[marmott]

just forget us

 

we know perfectly the situation between your and our forum but it's not the place for this kind of talk

 

Benji has respect the advice mods tell us last time (create a thread when a event will appear) and it's what he've done. Just this and not something else.

 

So don't bring bulls**t on this.