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TPP. This goes against the principle of encouraging benching


K404
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Long title, but I really can't see how a scoring system that can take points away from a team for submitting new scores is good for the hobby/ sport.

 

Are we all meant to sit down with a pen and paper to work out in advance if our bench session will help the team in any way, and what minimum score we have to get to avoid costing the team points?

 

 

Two things are gonna run through a persons mind:

 

1/If this hardware is anything other than great, it wont help the team.

2/ I can take personal bests and submit them.... and hurt the teams bottom line.

 

This is no way to help overclocking reach wider audiences.

 

 

It's a minefield..... and i'll be honest.... it's not a well-marked one.

 

 

 

:(

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K404, you don't loose points. Either you beat your team's previous best global/hardware results and gain some points or not and gain only user points which give 10% to your team. I can't see a way to lower team's TPP.

 

But what sucks is that I can't see team power points, only their sum. I want to see rankings pretty much like the user ones. And I need them pretty more than user ones.

Rankings, what points did my team get with who's submission and what teams are higher. All like the user rankings. So I can get a calc and be sure that a teammate having 4-5 times less points in user profile along with 10x higher team contribution is not a bug and how did he achieve such a condition.

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AFAIK the top score pr HW ranking pr team counts 100% for the team, but the rest 10%. So if you have the 1st place for like 8800gt singlecard 01 you give your team 50 boints, but if a teammate holds the 2nd spot, his/her contribution to the team will be 4.2 boints or something like that (10% of 42, or what 2nd is worth)

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But what sucks is that I can't see team power points, only their sum. I want to see rankings pretty much like the user ones. And I need them pretty more than user ones.

 

There's a 'best of team' filter on every ranking page. Using that option, you can see all TPP scores and rankings.

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There's not a clear definition on the HWBot between the following:

 

Team Power Points for HW

Global Team Power Points

 

which may be causing the confusion.

 

-----------------------

 

E.g. Person X and Y are both benching two CPUs A + B.

 

Person X has the best score on CPU A, gets global TPP and normal TPP.

Person Y has the best score on CPU B, gets global TPP and normal TPP.

 

If Person X submits a better score than person Y on CPU B, but not as good as his own score on CPU A, the following happens:

 

Person Y loses all his global and normal TPP on CPU B for not being number one in his team for CPU B.

Person X gains normal TPP on CPU B, but no global TPP on CPU B because his score on CPU A is better.

 

So team points now loses those extra global TPP.

 

Something like that in this mire of unclear point scoring.

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It's hard to find examples, partly because no-one has their team listed in each submission but could this be tried on the test server?:

 

Remove Sams CPU-Z with the Celeron 356? Mr Lobber is below him in the ranking and Sam has a better raw frequency with his 352.

 

Test server would show the influence of that single adjustment without todays new submissions skewing with things

 

 

Or, try removing some Benchtec Q6600 scores because there'll be better global in the 2600K

 

 

I dont know if these examples will work, i'm sure the concern about losing points won't work for every single situation

 

 

Maybe theres a "crossover point" in each ranking..... maybe things make sense around 6th place or 10th or lower.... what if this happens between scores that are gold and silver in a very popular category?

Edited by K404
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There's not a clear definition on the HWBot between the following:

 

Team Power Points for HW

Global Team Power Points

 

which may be causing the confusion.

 

-----------------------

 

E.g. Person X and Y are both benching two CPUs A + B.

 

Person X has the best score on CPU A, gets global TPP and normal TPP.

Person Y has the best score on CPU B, gets global TPP and normal TPP.

 

If Person X submits a better score than person Y on CPU B, but not as good as his own score on CPU A, the following happens:

 

Person Y loses all his global and normal TPP on CPU B for not being number one in his team for CPU B.

Person X gains normal TPP on CPU B, but no global TPP on CPU B because his score on CPU A is better.

 

So team points now loses those extra global TPP.

 

Something like that in this mire of unclear point scoring.

 

Yeah... that's pretty messed up.

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I dont quite get the difference between global and hardware TPP either. Haha. It does sound odd that a team would lose one set of global TPP's because one user beat another one from the same team in the exact same ranking. That cant be right.

 

But to make it clear: for hardware TPP, it's not "inner takes all", the rest contribute 10%.:)

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I dont quite get the difference between global and hardware TPP either. Haha. It does sound odd that a team would lose one set of global TPP's because one user beat another one from the same team in the exact same ranking. That cant be right.

 

But to make it clear: for hardware TPP, it's not "inner takes all", the rest contribute 10%.:)

 

You're getting confused between hardware points and hardware TPP. It's the general HW points that go to your total and those contribute 10% to the team. You don't earn TPP unless you're no.1 in the team for that hardware.

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Nice one, can we get a breakdown on each set of points and how they are effected by rev4? This is all very confusing.

 

^^ this

 

i asked it already few weeks ago, i must have been in cloak mode :D

 

Hey Pieter, please also bring back advanced search, it's a pita if we want to search in example best scores with a certain CPU in 3D benchmarks :S , let's say, best scores in 3D03 done with a 2500k CPU

 

cheers :)

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chart2.png

 

The problem we have with the algoritm is located in the TPP - Global part of the equation and is in essence a problem because we wanted to give too much points. TPP global is handed out to the team's best scores in the TPP global rankings, but multiple members of the team can score points within the same benchmark ranking as long as they're using different hardware. One team member can only contribute once, though, as well as one hardware type. In practical terms, it's very much like the team-concept we used in Country Cup 2011. Example:

 

User A: best 990X, best 980X, best 920 1M (of team)

User B: 2nd best 990X, 2nd best 980X, 2nd best 920 1M (of team)

User C: 3rd best 990X, 3rd best 980X, 3rd best 920 1M (of team)

 

The first algoritm, where only the best score of the team gets TPP-global for 1M, would have as result that of all team effort in 1M, only User A was helping the team. This is not only biased towards teams with strong ties to vendors (cherry cpus), but also biased towards the high-end extreme overclockers. So, we altered the algoritm to allow one user to contribute with a different piece of hardware. In this example, User A contributes with his 990X, User B with his 980X and User C with his 920 through the 1M TPP ranking.

 

Example from the real SuperPI 1M ranking, for Team Katana (link to ranking):

 

#4 - 2600K - Boooooon

#12 - i5 655K - Gyrock

#14 - i7 990X - Cal930

#23 - i5 661 - Hideo

#33 - i7 980X - Futto-Kun

 

The problem is that both TPP and UP are all based on the same result database. Or, to put it differently, you can't submit to the TPP ranking without also submitting to the UP ranking (or the other way around). The two types of ranking (UP and TPP) require a bit different approach: UP is just about submitting the best score, TPP is figuring out how you can maximize the team input the best. For a TPP-type ranking, it means that sometimes you can have a higher total if you don't submit your best score (see Country Cup). This sometimes conflicts with the UP ranking, for instance when a user with an already great 990X score would submit a slightly better 2600K score and thereby taking away the TPP contribution from a member who only has the 2600K score.

 

Solutions.

 

As far as I can see, there are two very easy and quick solutions to this problem and a few more difficult and elaborate. As HWBOT, I'd prefer a quick solution because it can be implemented in a few days and doesn't require us putting lots of resources (time) into this issue. I'll explain the effect using the example we used before.

 

1/ Just like in the hardware rankings, only allow the best score of the team to contribute in TPP-global rankings.

=> User A contributes with 990X.

=> User B and User C do not contribute (in TPP-global 1M).

 

2/ Allow multiple contributions per TPP-global ranking from the same user.

=> User A contributes with 990X, 980X and 920.

=> User B and User C do not contribute (in TPP-global 1M).

 

3/ Probably not as easy to implement. We add an 'disabled for TPP' checkbox to each score. When this box is checked, the score is not accounted for in the TPP rankings.

=> User A contributes with 990X, does not use checkbox for 980X and 920.

=> User B checks the box for his 980X score and contributes with the 920.

=> User C contributes with 980X.

 

The third solution is probably the most interesting strategy-wise, but I'm not sure if it can be implemented within a reasonable (< 1 month) timeframe. The first and second solution are just very minor changes to the algoritm, but both of these solutions were dismissed during the Rev4 developing phase as they both bias the Team League towards individuals who have access to the best handpicked hardware.

 

Your thoughts?

Edited by Massman
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Solution #4: Remove Global TPP.

 

Have team points are calculated as:

- the HW points from the number 1 member in that for that HW

- + 10% of everyone elses contributions (or for ease of code, everyones points so no.1 counts 110% for the team).

 

That way, you still have an effect on HW sharing, no-one has to delete scores, teams don't get a headache trying to work out who needs to select what scores. There will still be a bias towards the one team member with the cherry, but there always is that issue, unless you remove sponsored people from teams.

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Besides the obvious dislikes you'll get from the teams who usually focus more on high-end hardware, removing Global TPP is a problem because for most starting teams/users it's the easiest way to grab a bunch of points very quickly. To engage people to learn more about overclocking, having an easy start is quite important.

 

Some see strategy as headache, some see it as a challenge.

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