knopflerbruce Posted October 23, 2012 Posted October 23, 2012 Wow this thread exploded and I only missed 1 day. 1. Why would they not be allowed, they are system settings. Curious about CSS/Styles tho. 2. Bob's tweak is a Windows 'bug' and you can see the boost in other software. No reason to ban this imho. What sort of software? It just feels weird. I think we said something like any gain above 10% should be proven to be legit if we should accept it, so we need to verify that it is OK. I haven't seen it in action myself, so I have no clue. Seeing the effect in other apps is a step in the right direction, but a closer look at the windows and compare them with what they look like without the tweak would be very helpful. If the windows look the same, then I'd say it's a legit tweak. Until then it looks fishy because of the gain.
knopflerbruce Posted October 23, 2012 Posted October 23, 2012 No one hates you, or shouldn't based on a honest opinion. You can't expect from people to do that, maybe by the time the wrapper is done they dont have the hardware anymore even tho they wanted to play it fair or w/o any tweaks. A warning after/before posting a score that let's the user know his submission is bound to be verified and validated because it wasn't run with the wrapper sounds more plausible. Relying on the wrapper too much will only drag the REAL FAIR scores down as it has to take cpu cycles away from benchmark to verify against forbidden tweaks. Yes, only VERIFY as I will let you do the whole test 10minutes only to inform you of invalid tweaks found. Scumbag Steve in action. The more nasty stuff you can come up with that takes place during the actual subtests, the lower the final scores of everyone. Well, 05 is not very multithreaded, so only weak CPUs will see a performance drop I suppose. But don't block mouse movement. Moving the mouse is harmless. Not sure if you intend to do that, but then we have an issue with the mouse tweak
Moose83 Posted October 23, 2012 Posted October 23, 2012 CSS should be pretty shure not allowed! You can make the same effect like replacing test file! And render an blanc page without replacing anything;)
I.M.O.G. Posted October 23, 2012 Posted October 23, 2012 Moving the mouse is harmless. You are doing it wrong.
Moose83 Posted October 23, 2012 Posted October 23, 2012 Lol, this thing about the mouse.. not really sure about it or leave mouse in upper corner
GENiEBEN Posted October 23, 2012 Posted October 23, 2012 Lol, Ill just move the mouse in a corner to keep you from having to do any physical work. There goes Ney's 1million DPI mouse dream.
Moose83 Posted October 23, 2012 Posted October 23, 2012 Lol than he take again 2 mice To beat your wrapper.
SteveRo Posted October 23, 2012 Posted October 23, 2012 Guys, Mr. Moose, Is AMD RAIDXpert changing the sector size still allowed, is changing sector size on any drive allowed, why just amd? - http://hwbot.org/submission/2323211_moose83_pcmark_2005_fx_8120_44373_marks/
Moose83 Posted October 23, 2012 Posted October 23, 2012 Its still allowed change sector size gives huge boost in VS. I dont like it, Massmann allowed it after Team Cup. Steve, check your scores too, 3rd Party tool for TW now forbitten, Flash Desktop and so on;)
SteveRo Posted October 23, 2012 Posted October 23, 2012 Hmm ... If changing sector size is allowed to fool pcm05 we will see ~10k virus scan across the board, I can do this on both amd and intel, actually pretty much any mobo. Also - I have used non-OS s/w for some of my latest submissions but not flash desktop. Are we going to ban using iometer for xpstartup?
SteveRo Posted October 23, 2012 Posted October 23, 2012 (edited) Moose you and the others guys who have used these cheats know what is right and what is wrong in each submission made . Flash 2 Desktop "by now" isnt allowed, in the staff no conclusions about this Looking for clarification Mr. Sweet: For many of my most recent submissions I have used non-OS s/w that helps TW. Is all non-OS s/w now disallowed? Iometer ok for limiting xp startup? Edited October 24, 2012 by SteveRo
I.M.O.G. Posted October 24, 2012 Posted October 24, 2012 No reason to ban iometer. It just helps pull down xp startup. With your storage, there isn't another good way really. Someone said no scripts. Need batch script to change drive letters on strong storage.
Mr.Scott Posted October 24, 2012 Posted October 24, 2012 (edited) Its still allowed change sector size gives huge boost in VS.I dont like it, Massmann allowed it after Team Cup. It would seem that you leave no stone unturned in looking for loopholes in the rules. It's very discouraging. Massman may have givith that time, but Massman can takith away just as quickly. As far as I've read anywhere, it has not been determined 100% whether it's legal or not..........yet. Edited October 24, 2012 by Mr.Scott
xsuperbgx Posted October 24, 2012 Posted October 24, 2012 If this is all decided and now set in stone, perhaps a popup or some kind of message when you visit the frontpage telling everyone to check their submissions. I think that a small percentage of people visit the forum regularly.
Crew Sweet Posted October 24, 2012 Author Crew Posted October 24, 2012 (edited) No reason to ban iometer. It just helps pull down xp startup. With your storage, there isn't another good way really. Someone said no scripts. Need batch script to change drive letters on strong storage. Hi Steve, I.M.O.G is right in this topic, but by now change Hdd is allowed. Is AMD RAIDXpert changing the sector size still allowed, is changing sector size on any drive allowed, why just amd? If this is all decided and now set in stone, perhaps a popup or some kind of message when you visit the frontpage telling everyone to check their submissions. I think that a small percentage of people visit the forum regularly. I think it will soon be on the front page and in the rules -only Massman can do that-, we just need to define whether or not F2D is allowed like amd raid eXpert Guys imo, we have to stop this hack or will be removed literally the benchmark points and cups, PCMark05 could stop being a benchmark with which we can make overclocking. By the way, move the mouse so crazy is not allowed, you just have to move smoothly, in nvidia graphic cards, and mouse with ball is not allowed Edited October 24, 2012 by Sweet
SteveRo Posted October 24, 2012 Posted October 24, 2012 Mr. Sweet, one other item, looking for clarification - for many of my most recent submissions I have used non-OS s/w that helps TW. Do I need to remove these submissions?
Crew Sweet Posted October 24, 2012 Author Crew Posted October 24, 2012 (edited) Mr. Sweet, one other item, looking for clarification - for many of my most recent submissions I have used non-OS s/w that helps TW. Do I need to remove these submissions? Not by now, maybe in the future, wait a few days by this. we being defined at this time the massive increase in this subtest (transp win) We are defining the many gray areas that have the PCMark, which is totally unsafe. But if you consider that a hack usstes to improve the final result (which is not allowed) and also the final score is very bulky for hardware that you have used, better remove. You SteveRo and I.M.O.G like S_A_V and anothers guys who were the best in this benchmark, by the hardware used, know what is right or wrong. you are the real Master of PCMark. You were the ones who always defended the continuation of this benchmark You know much more than me on this topic (always inside overclocking) I've learned to run this benchmark with cold, and another stuff, thanks to you, I.M.O.G and S_A_V Btw. we have removed the scores from the day 19.10.2012 which use the Text edit Tweak (cheat with script w/ .rft file in blanck ) only, try other than validated those ridiculous scores that were uploaded since that day, scores greater than 100,000 marks with microprocessor stock. That's totally ridiculous and difficult to defend by those who use the tweaks to trick overclockers. Guys imo, we have to stop this hack or will be removed literally the benchmark points and cups, PCMark05 could stop being a benchmark with which we can make overclocking Edited October 24, 2012 by Sweet
Moose83 Posted October 24, 2012 Posted October 24, 2012 It would seem that you leave no stone unturned in looking for loopholes in the rules. It's very discouraging.Massman may have givith that time, but Massman can takith away just as quickly. As far as I've read anywhere, it has not been determined 100% whether it's legal or not..........yet. I dont like this bugged Feature in AMD Raid Expert... Its only an bug, not more. But allow ramcaching on Intel is the wrong way! Then 7g vs on Intel is no problem, so take a look back at this AMD Feature and disallow sector size changes that makes PC Mark bugged;) And TW is hard to moderate, without flash Desktop you can score also 50k+ TW no problem... maybee we should set there limits:)
Mikecdm Posted October 24, 2012 Posted October 24, 2012 If you know AMD raid expert is wrong, why do you continue to submit scores with it? Just because massman once said it was OK? Currently, everything is under speculation and you've been saying it since the team cup that you don't agree with it. How about having some principles and run the bench according to what you feel is right, instead of following the heard. I don't have many recent submissions myself, but I deleted the ones that I could find using flash2desktops. I know that running software that makes the screen turn black during a test is not a legitimate score. From what I've seen, we still don't have a final decision on F2D, but I decided to remove them, while most of us are removing our scores and trying to salvage what integrity we have left.
Moose83 Posted October 24, 2012 Posted October 24, 2012 Thats good when people delete it itself:) But still alot guys ignore it and leave there scores... AMD needs clearness now, i will not submit more scores with it. I deleted more than 50 scores that i think they are fault, drop 100 places down in league...but i feel much better with it, knowing my profile is clear now:)
sheffline_85 Posted October 24, 2012 Posted October 24, 2012 Moose83 The most valuable thing we have - a conscience. You did the right thing by removing the results. Anyone who has not deleted, showed himself not at its best.
Crew pro Posted October 24, 2012 Crew Posted October 24, 2012 okay guys let me weigh in on this, my position firstly im waiting for all my scores to be removed and i will not submit pcmark scores to hwbot anymore, most of my scores feature totally legitimate tweaks, some scores have things like transparent windows with resized windows that we have worked out is not allowed. the main reason i am removing my scores is so i can stay objective in decision making and no one thinks that i am using their tweaks against them... and just to clarify im not using any tweaks that are replacing benchmark files, so if your doing that, your doing it wrong ill always bench pcm05 privately though as i love the benchmark why keep pcm05? for those that are saying "get rid of pcm05", we are basically at that point and i am sure if this doesnt work then that is what will happen, but there are lots of reasons to keep this benchmark, for example, we have guys like Steve and Aristides that are always strong in this bench and are getting beaten by tweaks that they are not comfortable using and rightly so, this benchmark has a place and is a source of enjoyment for lots of people, so i believe we should have a proper effort to try and fix it up before abandoning it please be patient now guys i see lots of people saying, whys this not banned, why is mine banned and not his, etc, please be patient, this will takes weeks, months, and will be ongoing, but it is no different than any other benchmark, other than the fact it has gone unchecked for so long.. if this happened in 3dmark11 it would be immediately checked and in the future pcmark05 will be the same what is allowed and whats not? lets get something cleared up, a cheat is not a super-tweak, i WOULD call bobs TW a supertweak, i would call replacing codecs in a benchmark cheating, if it pleases you, then call it a super-cheat, whatever, but if its outside the rules its not a tweak, and i am just as much to blame for things like TW window resizing as anyone else benching PCM, now lets get onto the juicy stuff, whats allowed and whats not, this is extremely simple, lets go back to two very basic hwbot rules, 1. "Using software, performing hardware modifications or by human interaction altering the perceived speed of the benchmark program, tricking it to believe it ran faster and thus producing a better result. (adjusted 31st of August 2010)" 2. not modifying the benchmark itself Yes d3d, video encoding via registry or powertoy and LOD go against these rules, BUT they have been used and accepted as officially OK, unless staff have specifically said something is allowed that goes against HWBOTs general rules then it is NOT allowed if what you are doing in pcmark05 goes against one of those 2 rules, remove it now. staff will be contacting users with out of line submissions asking for proof on how to replicate them within the rules, if you are worried you cant provide that proof, remove your score now or it will be removed for you use your brain guys, if you know something is not right, 2400MB/s virusscan on a weak AMD platform, then its probably not right, this is the ethical side of hwbot we can't enforce but hope is in place Key areas we are targeting to start with Some of the key areas we will be targeting, but not limited to: Video encoding replacement, audio encoding Irregularly large trans windows Irregularly large memory latency Massive browser scores Anything out of line with file decoding Crazy virusscans or hdd general What is OK I am not going to go through every tweak and say its ok or its not ok, thats what the general rules are for and they cover alot of the "super tweaks", but not all, FD2 as a program is totally allowed, but using it to manipulate the window size or minimize windows is not allowed, similarly using a script to do this is not allowed as it breaks the "benchmark percieved speed rule" BUT as with any benchmark, if you can do it via control panel such as personalization or registry then it SHOULD be allowed, but there are always exceptions to the rule such as MIPMAP and in the future there might be other exceptions, but this is the current position, there is no one rule fits all model so take TW for example, if you can make the windows really small and change the text type in control panel then that is legal, SCRIPTS ARE LEGAL, i use scripts in nearly every benchmark, but to do things like control cpu clock, change gpu clocks on the fly, and to change things like the drives for different harddrive during PCMARK, that is all OK Using a script to do something that goes against the general rules is NOT ok. For example replacing a file that the benchmark uses to make TE go faster, NOT OK. Things like codecs can be tricky, as microsoft may update them or another program installed for watching videos may influence the scores, this is not the case in PCM05, if you are putting codecs specially in the pcm05 directory or replacing codecs that pcm05 installs, this is definatly NOT OK, i think that is common sense also forcing pcm05 to look in a folder it doesnt normally so it uses your codec, not OK, again common sense, guys you get the drift right? if it breaks hwbot general rules then it is NOT OK Raid XPERT Still up in the air is raid xpert, we are discussing the outcome of this one right now, there and positives and negatives to both sides of the fence and we need to make sure everything is worked out properly Massman said it was allowed, but now that we are aware that their is some bugging going on, we are reviewing it. We don't want peoples expensive raid setups obsoleted by a bugged software, Fairness This is not a witch hunt, everyone will be given the oppurtunity to prove their tweak is fair in a confidential environment. If you tweak is legitimate, it won't be shared, it will be approved and you can continue using it privately if you so wish. If you choose to not share the tweak with staff and your score looks out of line then it will be removed. Lets hope we can clean the benchmark up once and for all, remember guys, please use your brain, we dont want to remove scores, so please do it yourself if you know they go against rules
Crew pro Posted October 24, 2012 Crew Posted October 24, 2012 Looking for clarification Mr. Sweet: For many of my most recent submissions I have used non-OS s/w that helps TW. Is all non-OS s/w now disallowed? Iometer ok for limiting xp startup? iometer is fine, slowing down XP startup is a hwbot requirement and this isnt enhancing your startup in any way, i think this is a totally acceptable action
Crew pro Posted October 24, 2012 Crew Posted October 24, 2012 If you know AMD raid expert is wrong, why do you continue to submit scores with it? Just because massman once said it was OK? Currently, everything is under speculation and you've been saying it since the team cup that you don't agree with it. How about having some principles and run the bench according to what you feel is right, instead of following the heard. yeah i think ethics goes a long way to resolving this
I.M.O.G. Posted October 24, 2012 Posted October 24, 2012 We don't want peoples expensive raid setups obsoleted by a bugged software, Can you talk to the guy that bought my Areca 1882IX and 5x maxiops to give it back to me for the $1500 I sold it for? Ya, I took a $1K loss on that when the tweaks got crazy and I bailed on PCM05. I'm kidding about getting it back. The clarification is good, and I think it will give PCM05 a fighting chance.
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