Massman Posted July 7, 2015 Share Posted July 7, 2015 Ever since LN2 became a real thing in the world of overclocking, we've had people complain that the reward for running LN2 is too high compared to decent air overclocking. To make a long story short: I was thinking on how to improve this and this is what the brainstorming led to. Below you can find some slides with the explanation. I know some of you guys don't like slides, but I need it to explain to dev and others exactly what I mean. So please bear with it. TL;DR - Global Class Points use the same algorithm like the Global Points, but only takes into account participation within the League Class (eg: Enthusiasts). Each score is graded overall (Combined) and per class; the maximum of these values count as global points for your score. In practice, the effects are: being #1 in your class will give you a lot more points (sometimes up from 5pts to 66pts) - especially effective in classes lower than Extreme top air cooled submissions will appear on the front page an LN2 submission will always receive more points than an equally ranked air submission (because combined always has higher participation than any class specific) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massman Posted July 7, 2015 Author Share Posted July 7, 2015 The exact points implementation is up for discussion. The main benefit of using the same algorithm is that it's 1) efficient and 2) easy to understand. It would give the #1 from a specific class a wild amount of points, but then again ... if you beat 3000 others the points are probably deserved Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massman Posted July 7, 2015 Author Share Posted July 7, 2015 After we get some feedback here, I'll move the thread to the public forums ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
der8auer Posted July 8, 2015 Share Posted July 8, 2015 PJ, after our discussion on skype today, I spent a little more time thinking about your idea of the GCP and the Apprentice League. As we all know a lot of enthusiasts are interested in subzero in general but don't want to post scores because of stepping up in the league. I think the Apprentice League would just shift the problem to a different league but wouldn't solve the problem. What about allowing a certain amount of subzero submissions in the enthusiasts league which are time limited. So e.g. allow up to 3 active subzero submissions which expire after 30 days (disable points after 30 days). This way the enthusiasts could try subzero and still stay in the enthusiasts league. If they want permanent subzero submissions they have to move up to extreme league. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christian Ney Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 Well if we change how points are awarded, we don't really need cooling based leagues anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knopflerbruce Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 Not the worst idea i've seen, but it feels strange if you can get more points from stepping down a notch. You can always ask, is it easier to win the Premier League because it's got 20 teams compared to Championship, with it's 24 teams? I could be wrong here, but it feels reasonable to assume that most people who run air/water for benchmarking do it because they lack a certain skill that you need before stepping up to the subzero level. With this in mind I wonder if it's fair that you move to extreme and start running subzero, and then lose points because you have less people to compete with (but a higher percentage with lots of skill and experience). I could see this work, if you make sure that the extreme scores beating the top enthusiast score gets at least the same amount of points (rewarding Dancop with at least 88.3p for his score as his score is faster than Suzuki's - the XTU case looks better). Another thing to consider is that before we did not have to edit "false" air cooled subs, no? I mean, it was very low priority. With this new system it's a high priority task for sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christian Ney Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 What about cooling verification? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massman Posted July 12, 2015 Author Share Posted July 12, 2015 We'd still need the different leagues because the Global Class points are based on it. Well, I guess technically we wouldn't need it, but people will still want to see how they rank up within the class. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crew Don_Dan Posted July 13, 2015 Crew Share Posted July 13, 2015 I don't like the idea of awarding global points for every league. It will only make the point system more complex and harder to understand for new members, plus it will heavily increase the incentive for cheating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massman Posted July 22, 2015 Author Share Posted July 22, 2015 Moved to public forums Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vadimua Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 If you buy a lot of top VGA and 8c16t CPU every year, you get a high easy globals. Less sports, but more users, clicks. I do not like it. But I understand, this business as always. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K404 Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 What's the actual difference? Same scores, more points? The leaderboards aren't going to change much*, but people feel better because they get more synthetic points? *assuming the benchers have benched "smart" and have paid attention to their global contribution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massman Posted July 22, 2015 Author Share Posted July 22, 2015 A much higher reward for top scores within a class. So you'll see a boost of of enthusiast/novice/rookie members in the overall rankings. The perceptive difference will be much bigger than the actual difference. Ie, people with regular water cooling will not feel SUPER under-appreciated just because they're not running LN2 and the others do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K404 Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 So, psychology. ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massman Posted July 22, 2015 Author Share Posted July 22, 2015 Well, partially psychology. The question is posed in the slides: in SuperPI 32M, is 20th global really 6x "more valuable" than being 1st amongst all Enthusiasts? My opinion is, no. And this is a suggestion to look at weighing scores differently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K404 Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 Well.... it depends on how the value of points are discussed and compared. I see points as a means to an end and I don't talk about the means..... In all my time as an OCer, I have NEVER explained what I do in terms of points, but I explain how points mean rankings. Example: "1200" means nothing. NOTHING. "2nd in my country" means so much more and it doesn't need further explanation. If I had 0.1836 points, but the leaderboard puts me in 3rd place, that's all that matters. To me. I know, the interpretation is a very personal thing. IMO, you almost hit the nail on the head in your post.... I would rather be 1st in my league than have a global 20th. An extension of the "problem" would be..... why be in any other league than Elite? Clue is in the name BUT.... "better to reign in hell than serve in heaven" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
basco Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 i know you write thinking of- but am i the only one who thinks we change to much lateley- let me digest my falling 100 places-ok did not bench much but- i think its because of me not being in esport-but cannot tell ya anymore lost contact to hwbot-help major tom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taloken Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 (edited) Not points for EACH league. Regroup Ambients (rookies/novices/enthus) and Extreme (extreme/elite), but it would be a enormous mess if we split per league. On displaying, don't add another points system, it will blow newcomer's minds. In scores rankings, do like : GL (All + Cooling) 16.4+2.6 HW (All + Cooling) 2.2+1.6 Also equilibration would be essential, or we would see Enthusiast on world top-10 by farming Cooling Points ... Or add just cups like "Best Hardware Ambient Submission", "2nd Best Global Ambient Submission" ... no points and let haters hate. Edited July 23, 2015 by Taloken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rasparthe Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 This idea looks like further proof that the Global points system is pretty broken. I can understand the need to foster recognition for the largest segment of the overclocking community but I think the problem is that the global points awarded to Extreme subs is too high (or at least counts to heavily to your ranking). Instead of trying to come up with a points algorithm that provides additional points for lesser scores why not just adjust the amount your globals count towards your total. You know my views on globals already but you could just as easily use only a percentage of your total globals in the rankings based on which league your in. Elite - all globals - no hardware (cause why not, this is my post and I can put any flights of fancy of I want in it) Extreme - 50% globals + hardware points Enthusiast - 100% globals + hardware points Novice - 150% globals + hardware points Rookie - 200% globals + hardware points I just picked these numbers out of the air, but the point being you don't have to add new headers and classes to the layout to get the same effect. Adjust them how ever you want, as K404 has said its all psychology. Under either system, if a score pops up on the Top submissions and everyone clicks it, their will be an (and this is unfortunate) eye roll, and 'oh just an air sub', no matter how many points are given it. One good idea though, get rid of the "New Challenges" tab and put in "New Ambient" one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xxbassplayerxx Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 Pieter is HWBot's Oprah: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aleslammer Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 (edited) I agree with K404 post 16, well put. Rasparthe's second sentence from last is also well put but you might get an eye brow raise from a fellow league member. Overall looks pretty good I guess, a few years back my concepts were different and your presentation would have greatly been appreciated to bring the ambient leagues more points, at this point in time not so much. From what is proposed if I want to keep my league standings my benching dollar just bought a lot less hardware. Good for your advertisers by putting a larger value on the latest and greatest, pays your bills so really don't have fault with it just doesn't fit my present concepts. Will be a nice boon for the larger teams for the team league. From a small team what you want me to say. Edited July 24, 2015 by Massman fix some characters Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rasparthe Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 Will be a nice boon for the larger teams for the team league. From a small team what you want me to say. Has this been discussed? It would make quite a difference if your team has a great deal of Ambient OC compared to Extreme. In fact, you could see a situation where a team might discourage its members from going Extreme. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aleslammer Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 Mmm, was not thinking along those lines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massman Posted July 24, 2015 Author Share Posted July 24, 2015 K404, Rasparthe: it's partially about psychology, but mainly about rewarding overclocking ability fairly. In the slides included in the opening post, you'll find the problem description. The question is: "Is it really more difficult to reach top-20 with LN2 than it is to reach #1 amongst Enthusiasts?" In the current system, the highest reward goes to people who run their hardware using liquid nitrogen. Although part of our mission is to foster and grow the extreme overclocking community, the reality states that not everyone is interested in trying out liquid nitrogen. In fact, the large majority will never go beyond custom water cooling builds. Effectively, that means a person who chooses to never use subzero cooling can only earn a fraction of the points of someone who tries liquid nitrogen. Look at SuperPI 32M: #1 enthusiast has 5.8pts; #20 on LN2 has 35.8pts. Evaluating your proposal, Rasparthe, I have the sense that we are somewhat on the same page. Your suggestion looks good on paper, but as you mention the arbitrary nature of the "global points multiplier (GPM)" is a problem. That's what's avoided by what I proposed in the opening post. The "multiplier" is establish by taken into consideration how many participants there are within a certain class. In your proposal you run the risk of having an improperly configured GPM that favors a specific class. I can imagine this would've been the case in Sandy Bridge era when ambient cooling systems were competing at the top of the global rankings. This is not a problem with the proposal from the first post for the simple reason that the increase in global points is directly related to the amount of participants, and the amount of participants of a specific class will always be lower or equal to (but not higher) than the amount of overall participants. Not sure, but I think we actually agree on the principle. Thanks for the feedback though, Tony. For some reason I always enjoy reading your contributions here. You're always to the point! Aleslammer, it's funny how quickly advertisers and monetization is brought up. Is it that hard to believe this has nothing to do with business? haha It is true that this would favor the more recent hardware. But fact of the matter is that the overwhelming majority of new overclockers enter this world with the latest generation of hardware. If we want to help them get hooked on overclocking, that's the tools we have to work with. It's not that we're trying to cater to advertisers or industry, it's that we're trying to find a way to talk to aspiring new members of the community. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K404 Posted July 24, 2015 Share Posted July 24, 2015 (edited) I don't really see why the points should be adjusted to make some people feel better about what they do. "Teach" people to focus on rankings, not points. I'd like to think that people who start to dabble in any kind of competitive OC are smart enough to see why Extreme scores get more points and rookies should look within class for a relevant point comparison. Has this been discussed? It would make quite a difference if your team has a great deal of Ambient OC compared to Extreme. In fact, you could see a situation where a team might discourage its members from going Extreme. This could be a major game-changer. Needs more discussion I think If going cold hurts a users team, then that might affect another convo we're having.... Edited July 24, 2015 by K404 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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