BenchZowner Posted June 5, 2010 Share Posted June 5, 2010 But you present yourself as everyone's saviour when you're just shouting loudly? I didn't present myself as anybody's saviour. What I did say is that I'm the one ( of the very few as we can see ) that doesn't give a flying f*ck and say what I think without any hesitation. There are multiple PM's in my inbox from various people here and on other forums saying that they agree with me and thanking me for putting up a "fight" for them. Don't you understand that some people see through the sherade you put up and in the end just don't listen anymore? That can be only one of the sides of this story, one of the other sides is... lots of people never posted here in this topic or in general, have PMed me, and agree with most ( if not all ) of my posts about this issue, so no, they haven't stopped listening and posting, they never posted to stop now. It's just a good example of how you want hardware sharing to be attacked, but DON'T accept that questions can also be asked to you or your team. First of all, where did you see me saying that I said that I have a problem with the HWbot crew asking questions to any member ( be it a HOT member, a Pure member, or a TeamSuckers member... ) ? I did say that your behavior and reply to the members involved ( crio & sofos ) and the fact that you were predetermined about what happened, and ditched any attempt of crio & sofos who were more than willing to provide you with any kind of proof you desired. Did you ask the same question and behave the same to smoke and slamms ? To any other suspicious entry ? Personally I haven't shared any results ever, and wouldn't do it no matter what. Most of the times ( if not all ) whenever I bench together with other people, I give them the scores, and I don't post any for myself. I had several chances to "play within the rules", "slip and slide between the cracks" of the rules and share and publish similar scores taken with the same hardware, but I didn't. Other people might do it, others won't no matter what. I'm all against hardware sharing and any form of cheating, but this isn't about it. It's about how every single HWbot member is treated, because the way I and lots of other members of HWbot.org see it, it isn't exactly fair and handled the same way. Fyi, by MOA and GOOC I obviously mean the live finals where hardware is provided. I wouldn't mind you removing those scores ( along with every other MOA/GOOC score from any member & country ). In fact, I have been telling various people that I don't like and don't think it's right to do that, and kindly asked them that they don't, but I'm no god, and neither a control freak. I think none of us (except BenchZowner then) wants to see a competition regulated to the extreme, having to sign a 500-page rule book before you can actually submit a score to the bot. "Do not use ES"... that's a one liner I think. Anyway, I know for sure that you're not considering removing the ES at all, and you're participating in this conversation just for the sake of being here and not having people saying "Massman or the X member isn't taking any part in this". So do yourself a favor and just say it clearly "We will not remove the ES" plain and simple. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massman Posted June 5, 2010 Share Posted June 5, 2010 We will not "just" remove all ES from HWBOT as it's unfair to those who have bought the ES when it was still allowed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BenchZowner Posted June 5, 2010 Share Posted June 5, 2010 Life is unfair you said a few pages ago, didn't you ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massman Posted June 5, 2010 Share Posted June 5, 2010 Clever. Too bad you started all this by using the fairness-argument. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BenchZowner Posted June 5, 2010 Share Posted June 5, 2010 Clever, yet not so unfair, since those with the E.S. have decent retails in hand already, or have the necessary contacts to get a good retail in a moment, most of them, and you know it, we know it. The question is very simple, sure it can piss off some people... like 10... and make 30.000 happy... Allow E.S. - Disallow E.S. The rest is just the pudding, the cake is already out there... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massman Posted June 5, 2010 Share Posted June 5, 2010 Again with the oversimplification ... Go a few posts back in this thread and re-read the posts where people have indicated the issues with removing ES (or even disallowing them). It's not because we disallow them that everything is solved ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crew Leeghoofd Posted June 5, 2010 Crew Share Posted June 5, 2010 ES wasn't always better Bill... it's an endless discussion that has no winners, only loosers... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knopflerbruce Posted June 5, 2010 Share Posted June 5, 2010 The most ridiculous thing is, that so many of the members here perform illegitimate RMAs for Intel-CPUs but pretend to care about the legal status of an ES-CPU - sanctimoniousness at its best. And FYI if Intel sends you or me an ES-CPU for testing purposes, they want to get the CPU tested. "Owning" on a lawful basis does not have anything to do with Hwbot, otherwise we would upload attachements of bills and notarially certified deeds of ownership. What Hwbot wants, is, that your whole team doesn`t benefit from a single CPU by distributing it to every member. So "Owning" is not "Having access to" is not "Using for Hwbot scores" ... btw 6.6 GHz @ AM3 + 6.55 GHz @ Pifast done with retail i7-980X: http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=253332 Some further thoughts about ES CPUs I placed here already: http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showpost.php?p=3927200&postcount=116 --> Idealism and being able to hold a competition are two total different things. Same goes for many, many (cheap OEM) CPUs, which were never released officially. *cough* E8700 *cough* @hipro/hiwa: Sure you`re still on topic? I must say I'm wondering what the 6 guys in front of me in the HW masters rank will say when I start benching 01 and 03 on that chip (i have plenty of GPUs around here, but no budget to buy Tek 9's or whatever). But if it's allowed, it's allowed. If it wasn't, I wouldn't spend $500 for two of these. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crew Turrican Posted June 5, 2010 Crew Share Posted June 5, 2010 I must say I'm wondering what the 6 guys in front of me in the HW masters rank will say when I start benching 01 and 03 on that chip (i have plenty of GPUs around here, but no budget to buy Tek 9's or whatever). But if it's allowed, it's allowed. If it wasn't, I wouldn't spend $500 for two of these.i wouldn't care knut, because i have myself one. i'm also using the e8700 for all my 01 and 03 runs, but only @ cascade (5.9-6.0ghz) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knopflerbruce Posted June 5, 2010 Share Posted June 5, 2010 Just wondering... how many users bench with A0 chips? I think it's a fair bit of the ones who actually have a reason to care about this issue (mr x at 140th place globally can easily improve his rank by binning retails, for example). If some of those guys say say they want retails only, the reason is obvious: they didn't get the golden A0, and now there are very few good ones left as these chips die easily. ...and changing the rules mid-game is the most unfair of all things we can do. I have no clue about future released and how those engineering samples will perform vs retails, but I hope this whole A0 thing doesn't happen again. No matter how we solve this, people will get angry:battle: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knopflerbruce Posted June 5, 2010 Share Posted June 5, 2010 i wouldn't care knut, because i have myself one. i'm also using the e8700 for all my 01 and 03 runs, but only @ cascade (5.9-6.0ghz) I'm thinking about those who don't have one there are a LOT of boints to get more or less for free once you have a 6.5+++ capable 01/03-chip. And I won't run it on a cascade, I pour:D (OT: did you ever test your chip on LN2?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crew Turrican Posted June 5, 2010 Crew Share Posted June 5, 2010 (OT: did you ever test your chip on LN2?) unfortunately not, but i'll have a go the next couple weeks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crew Leeghoofd Posted June 5, 2010 Crew Share Posted June 5, 2010 Very good resumé of my thoughts Bruce... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BenchZowner Posted June 5, 2010 Share Posted June 5, 2010 Yeah why not, let it be, until things get more fucked up with the next CPU generation E.S. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kal-EL Posted June 5, 2010 Share Posted June 5, 2010 Filibustered! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steponz Posted June 5, 2010 Share Posted June 5, 2010 Can we do a query on which benches are es or not? I would love to see that data like, how many members used ES and how it ranks.. Why do we not have a comparison to at least say ES is way better than retail... I do think ES probably should have been ruled out before this all started. Would have made it fair for benching and much more for the amateur. Mass, I saw your post about the site being for the amateur... I beg to differ.. this site goes to the pro and pretty much nothing for the amateur. All contests are using ES chips, specific boards.. Why not do contests on a board that everybody has? that would be for the amateur.. You know you have that data. I am really sad to see that it really goes to the pro with connections/backings of a manufacturer. Until these things are fixed.. Your going to keep on going backwards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massman Posted June 6, 2010 Share Posted June 6, 2010 Maybe it's time that I spill some beans here. As some members, apart from myself, have already indicated in this and the poll-thread: the ES are not the real issue here. Removing ES from HWBOT is like fixing a traffic jam by closing the road for all cars: at first sight, the issue will be solved, but other (similar) problems will occur on different places. Just removing the ES in the middle of the game doesn't go; why? 1) Changing rules mid-game is as unfair as it gets 2) Bioses with adjusted microcode will appear making ES look like normal cards 3) We only have CPU-Z indicating the CPU ES editions, we don't have GPU-Z indicating GPU ES editions If there's one thing that the GTX 480 coldslow problem has learned us it's that Nvidia, Asus, Evga and other manufacturers are willing to protect 'secrets' to their advantage: it's all about corporate leverage to take a world record. If it's not on HWBOT, it's on Futuremark or anywhere else. If it ever comes to AMD beating Intel again, rest assured that Intel will be pulling tricks to prove they're the best. Read: sending golden samples to mainboard vendors to take down records. So, what is the real issue? The difference between overclocking for fun and overclocking for marketing purposes. This is something we can solve, on long-term, by creating a different league for marketing overclocking. In fact, first steps in this direction have been taking months ago, but have been kept internally for very obvious reasons: we are still in the design phase of the competition. It's not possible for HWBOT to just create a new league and move everyone who we think belongs there. For a league that is focussed on marketing, we need the support from manufacturers and participating overclockers, otherwise it will just not work. I hope that everyone understands the consequences of this step, though. A lot of guys are now pushing really hard to get sponsorships for their overclocking escapades, hoping to get picked up by a manufacturer and get send hardware. With a marketing league, you could forget all about this: it will be one league for the 'normal' folks and one league for those who get seeded. And this is where another problem occurs: is getting one mainboard for free 'getting seeded'? Is getting one VGA for free? Also, there's no way we can control this: local PR people invite overclockers to public demos sometimes. As a reward, they can keep the hardware. Is this being sponsored? And what about qualifying for GOOC or MOA and getting to play with the most high-end hardware (980X + GTX480), whereas you normally don't have the money for this? As you can see, there's MUCH more to this than just removing the ES from the competition. The ES are just the tip of the iceberg. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BenchZowner Posted June 6, 2010 Share Posted June 6, 2010 What we can see from the ES poll is that the vast majority wants to have them removed or non-point awarded. It's clear and shinny like an uncut diamond. About being unfair when applied mid-season... there's always something people miss at the startup line, and there's also always a "crack" half-way for someone to introduce something that is clearly wrong and outside the rules ( mipmap maybe ? altered PC Mark maybe ? )... Fairness is a loose term, and it can be misused ( I was the first one to steal money from a bank, there was no law about it, so I'm legal, and no, you can't write a law about it, because we're in the middle of the game )... Keeping things as fair as possible is the key. Not removing the ES with the excuse that people can cheat and use them under the table and with another excuse ( not being able to track the ES VGAs ) is like not allowing the police to check up on suspects because they might get paid by the suspects to say that they're clean... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knopflerbruce Posted June 6, 2010 Share Posted June 6, 2010 The difference between tweaks that we say are illegal is that the tweaks are free, and usually that sort of things are handled really quickly. I bet users here have spent hundreds of thousands on engineering samples in total, to come and say "no, sorry, you can't use them after all" would be the worst decision I can think of. Plus, we don't have the money to pay these guys for their chips, which is the only fair compensation in that situation... do you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massman Posted June 6, 2010 Share Posted June 6, 2010 What we can see from the ES poll is that the vast majority wants to have them removed or non-point awarded.It's clear and shinny like an uncut diamond. Poll: "Voters: 41" HWBOT database: "Users: 24567" //edit: you also missed the point of the post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BenchZowner Posted June 6, 2010 Share Posted June 6, 2010 It was their decision to spend their money on E.S. They took the risk, and knew that they might get disallowed sooner or later. In that case, shall the retail buyers ask for a compensation for making their investments in retail CPU's worthless ? If an athlete decides to take drugs to enhance his performance, it's his decision, and if he gets caught or a new regulation adding his drug in the disallowed meds list arises, it's his fault and he doesn't deserve a compensation. After all buying E.S. hardware is illegal. And well... they can sell them just like they bought them... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BenchZowner Posted June 6, 2010 Share Posted June 6, 2010 Poll: "Voters: 41"HWBOT database: "Users: 24567" //edit: you also missed the point of the post. Spread the news and get a better sample. Will the analogy change ? Yeah right Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hipro5 Posted June 6, 2010 Share Posted June 6, 2010 This poll MUST be done in XS and in local forums so to have a REAL sample.....OR else in here it doens't count because a few users comes into these forums.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BenchZowner Posted June 6, 2010 Share Posted June 6, 2010 This poll MUST be done in XS and in local forums so to have a REAL sample.....OR else in here it doens't count because a few users comes into these forums.... They'll ignore it because it's "not on HWbot" ( laughs ) But, it's a good idea, would you mind starting it on XS George ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massman Posted June 6, 2010 Share Posted June 6, 2010 We will not "just" remove all ES from HWBOT as it's unfair to those who have bought the ES when it was still allowed. ^^ the above Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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