Strunkenbold

Ah now I see this. Yes this is an old bug. Appeared already multiple times in the past. IMO it's a problem how the bot handles name strings. For some reason the bot isn't able to handle exact strings. If there is something similar, it just chooses this It's like the search engine had always a bug if you search for users. Like you search for submissions from user "blablabla". If there is also a user "Blabla". The bot just shows subs from him. But the are no results from the actual "blablabla" query.

This is correct. Raven CPUs are Zen gen1. AMDs Marketing Team decided to give them 2000er numbers. Zen+ aka Zen gen 2 will have 3000er numbers BTW.

Well the problem of global and wr points is that they are really big. While you just can get maximum 50 hardware points, it is possible to receive over 160 points for globals and 170 points for worldrecord points. In other words an active bencher which posts some high quality scores with big points can be #1 in career ranking and in seasonal ranking at the same time and he can achieve this in some months (hypothetical). I think the career ranking should reflect the effort made over some longer time and not just some months. Currently those 30 slots for hardware / global / WR fill up too quickly with current made results because global / WR points have a so much bigger influence. Regarding comp points: I think its sad that the effort made in previous years diminishes. Seasonal ranking gives the chance to see the current level of a bencher while career shows what he did over the time. Its 10 slots for those points. If we shift up hardware point slots it should not have a too big impact anymore.

Well the point is that I didnt see too much constructive criticism in this thread. Just complaints. If you want that Frederik does change something in your direction you have to give him something he can work with. I mean it should be clear if Frederik just receives negative feedback of his work, he probably doesnt see the point to spend time on hwbot. Which ultimately means that hwbot close his doors forever.

Well I think AMD had actually the intention to release it. At least it was rumored and I really thought it gets released. However, I think AMD did not introduce another marketing name for it when the powercolor nano got released, so I guess it can be deleted from our db.

So the culprit is just the seasonal team ranking? I think this can be easily changed back to an all time ranking again. I dont see why this needs to be seasonal. Actually first I thought the seasonal ranking just add more complexity but the more I think about it the more I like the idea. The seasonal ranking idea has the advantage to attract new benchers to easily climb up. I mean hwbot is over 10 years old, if the ranking would be static for all times, newcomers see those thousand and thousands of points and give up early. Cause it makes a difference if you had 10 years time to bench those gazillion hardware / benchmark combinations or just some months. However the current approach to calculate the career points needs to get tweaked. As currently, if you have benched a lot of current gen hardware, you are way too good in the career ranking which pisses people who are here for a long time. As we all know, there is a new hardware generation coming each year, and each year world records gets beaten by new hardware. If I take a look at the profile of splave http://uat.hwbot.org/user/splave/#Points I see that his seasonal ranking doesnt differ much from his career ranking which leaves the question why having two rankings if it acutally doesnt look much different. So my proposal is to remove global points from career ranking and increase the submissions taken into account for the ranking, maybe to 50 hardware and 30 competition. Just to make a difference between one year and 10 years contribution to the bot. The seasonal ranking is a nice idea. But you also have to see that points get zeroed every year. So it might be also a good idea to create new achievements like best overclocker 2017 or something. And introduce rankings or leader boards for the last years. So we all could see who was the best of 2010 or something.

Well that is something unique for sure. However if I understand correctly, those Co processors can just work with a main CPU. Is any program able to detect those combos? I mean, I dont know if it makes sense to add co processors at all to the db, probably need another opinion from Antinomy here.

Dead links on uat. Is anywhere else a description how those points come together (for the users)?

Okay misunderstood the focus then. As no one replied after your RFC, I should say that it was just my personal impression that we should make the point algorithm easier. As I thought that the many broken rankings are because of this too complex algorithm. My personal motivation has been always the points I got in a ranking. I never cared too much about my ranking in a league. So thats the reason my focus seems to be different from the other guys. If rankings could get fixed and work more reliably, plus the socket ranking pages, I would be very satisfied.

hmm and I thought changing the point algorithm to something better understandable and simpler is all about this new rev... I mean, I understand that you have to keep those percentages for lower server load but I think the biggest problem of the current rev are strange and broken rankings. Youre right, I was wrong about the percentages, mixing hardware and global, but IMO the percentages should be really reverse. 50% for the globals, means like 4Ghz scores get global points where the 75% cliff for hardware points makes Air and Water benchers unhappy...

It would be very nice if this longstanding bug could be finally fixed. I think this is the reason for some serious problems on the website.

This all looks very promising, great job! Some small additions: Im not a big fan of the 50% cliff for the hardware points. I often see very weird rankings because of this. And its not good to build up rankings because user on air have no motivation to post results once a LN2 score got uploaded. If we want too keep the cliff I have the following ideas (not sure how hard it would be to implement): 1. To feed the ranking with results, award the first 25 results always with points regardless of 50%. If possible visualize those 25 places with another color or something else so people get the idea. 2. Draw a red line or something in the ranking page to illustrate where the cliff begins (So people know why place 36 get points while place 37 doesnt). 3. Calculate 50% of the current first place and show the number in the ranking page so people know which score they have to beat to get points.

+1 Would be very very cool to have this on the regular page instead hidden in the forums. I think this should be possible without too much problems, I mean I can search for SuperPi results for Socket 478 too and those get sorted by the best result. Why shouldnt it be possible to create a page for this?

http://hwbot.org/hardware/processor/am386_sxsxl_33/ Dont know if I should go with this name scheme though.

Just want to say that we mostly rely on data from CPU-World and TPU GPUDB. I know that CPU-Z as GPU-Z have problems showing the correct code name for recycled or castrated parts. That often happens if the vendor doesnt change the IDs of those parts. Thats the reason why CPU-Z /GPU-Z doesnt match our db in some cases. On that FM1 performance issue: I put an answer already in the _mat's thread where he examined the issue. But in case you didnt read yet... The reason why older bios versions are faster is that AMD turned of a feature of those CPUs because they found a bug which can cause the CPUs to hang. GPUPI makes heavy use of division operations. Llano CPUs actually have a unit that can do those division operations very fast. But because of a bug, AMD decided to turn that unit off. Those operations need to go through other units of the CPU now which are a lot slower. In case you ask now why nobody in the last 7 years bothered, the reason is that division operation seem to be just not that important under normal workloads, yet GPU-PI makes heavy use of it. If you want to re-enable the performance, without downgrading your Bios or your OS: https://www.passmark.com/forum/performancetest/3705-amd-llano-a-series-benchmark-and-cpu-bug?t=3656 Cbjaust already confirmed that it works.

Thx for testing this. Maybe _mat_ can confirm. I think this is getting us to a comfortable position where we can safely allow this "tweak". Its just like we did with The Stilts work optimizing Superpi performance on Bulldozer, afaik he was also messing around with CPU registers.

Yes I remember there was something similar with those unlocked Haswell mobile CPUs. You have to prevent that Windows loads the intel firmware on boot. I dont think that you need to implement the fix in GPUPI. All needed is the patch exe from the passmark guys. To quote their readme: This is reminds me of The Stilts Bulldozer Conditioner... All we need is someone to test if it really works. I think I have somewhere a board and a CPU both from scrap and not known to work maybe its time to test this bundle now.

Great work identifying the problem!! And now some wild guessing since I read there are a lot of division operations happen but Im no programmer, so I actually dont understand at all what you wrote on the first page: http://www.planet3dnow.de/cgi-bin/newspub/viewnews.cgi?id=1334532731 Maybe their patch helps to restore performance? https://www.passmark.com/forum/performancetest/3705-amd-llano-a-series-benchmark-and-cpu-bug?t=3656 edit: this would also explain why agesa doesnt matter, as this needs to be done by bios manufactures.

Its not that easy. We cant start to ban people because they have a different opinion. But in my opinion the reason why many people are unhappy is because the website didnt received the work which is actually needed to provide a satisfying experience. And I dont see that this changes. Instead the bot is producing unhappy users everyday.

A rule of this years old school competition was to show the CPU with the used motherboard because there are lot of CPU pictures in the internet. So those pictures become a little bit more unique. Slot A CPUs also have a sticker on the backside of the PCB. Even though I currently dont remember if its about the core or the model name or both.

For me it was always important what the community thinks. Hwbot lost a lot of users. For instance my whole team is not active anymore. The feedback I got was mostly around everything is getting too complicated. Ranking, rules, hardware categories. Everything gained too much levels of complexity and in the end its no fun anymore. Now, while you can't make everyone happy, you also gain nothing if you spend time on an website which has no users anymore. And since its a dance between correctness and happy users you have to listen what the people say. The last feedback I got was because of splitting 9800 GT category which I heard made many people upset but none of those said something as they were already too frustrated of the whole situation. Of course I was thinking about if that was worth the trouble, if it was worth the thing to upset people. Back then I believed it was necessary to keep a fair competition alive and was somehow logical as the rest of hardware db had the same scheme to separate categories also by Shader count. Since you are one of those which were affected Im actually quite surprised by your statement. While its very important to know for me if the community still in favor of my work, there are also some other points which made me decide to leave. Most important its my family. I just cant spend so much time anymore for hwbot. And the other thing is the question how does the development of hwbot evolve. In the moment I see just to many bugs and no indication that something will change. I wait for a response from Frederik and how he visualizes the future of the bot. And if there is a reasonable plan, count me in again. Even just for some light tasks. About Order: Those are very good suggestions. And now thats why I think this will not happen: Over the last years I made the experience that even if you say there is a broken link, there is bug on the website, there are duplicate categories in the db, there is no one who fix your reported stuff. Or it takes months up to years (Im not exaggerating). On top of that I think this needs some kind of coordination. Someone who assigns tasks like PJ did before he left. But that would usually need someone who works full time for the bot. And I guess the bot raises just enough funds to keep itself running. Its not like the bot could pay someones salary. That leaves two options. Either Frederik agrees to work at least one day in the week for the bot just to do the maintenance work, fixing small bugs, makes additions to the db which I cant do, talks to the team makes suggestions to important topics and and and... Or as this will not happen, theres only the possibility to distribute the work to more people. Which would mean someone is moderating competitions, one or two deal with the reported stuff, one for the hardware db and one who has some control over the website and post news can edit the rules etc. About Democracy: I know the bot made many people unhappy because of decisions which discussed somewhere in the forum and where never announced in the news. I guess thats why some people lost the confidence in this website. And I absolutely agree on this. But I wonder how should democracy work for this website? I remember we had polls. I remember the majority was always about to give more points, more benchmarks, equal points for same positions,... But there were very good arguments against. Yet always the greedy faction won. I think its good to hear different opinions. And the decision should be made on those opinions, but in the end stuff decides. Because they need to run this service. Thats absolutely true. The question is always to what degree we accept submissions which are flawed. I can accept when the CPU-Z memory tab is missing for a score which is somewhere in the middle of a ranking. But when I think of those Win10 results, I really begin to ponder what the best approach would be. Either let every submission in the ranking which doesnt look suspicious. But then, arent we de facto allow Win10? Doesn't we punish user who read the rules, especially because Win10 performs better than Win7 in some benchmarks? Or be strict and remove anything, causing many frustrated users. And when we dont remove Win10 results we make the people angry who obeyed the rules. If we would decide to let those Win10 results in the rankings because 90% of them are probably correct, how do we distinguish a tweaked run from a RTC bugged run? In my opinion, this is the door to meaningless rankings. Given that Win10 becomes more and more the standard OS in the world I guess that many users must be frustrated. It is a disaster. But everyday more and more of those results come in. And I dont think that the users actually even think of that there could be something wrong with their result. How many do really look in the rules. And even if they do, they see there is someone else having a result with Win10 for two years in the ranking, so it must look like the situation has changed and things are allowed now. In my opinion users need to get warned, they need to get aware of the situation. But that doesnt happen. I talked about this problem in our internal forums to no avail. It is just really frustrating. This was a common thing I heard from some people. First announce changes and then, let people discuss. I must admit, I really underestimated that the removal of those results would cause such a misunderstanding. I really thought that things would be clear. Instead I think many people are confused. But probably discussion is needed to help people understand the issue. So I think it should be a common thing to announce every change in the news section of the website. Its just too bad that we lost our news writer and no one from the team has access to the news section of the website. The only exception is Frederik but since he variously visits the forums, the time when such an article could be published could range from one day to several months. And thats just way too unreliable. However its not only hard to publish those announcements its also hard to actually write such an article. Sometimes it is just simply hard to explain the decision itself. But given that the result in this particular case wouldnt be any different, I went ahead wrote a small article trying explaining the problem and removed the scores. So maybe this was a tiny bit too hasty. But my feeling from the discussion was that many people didnt really tried to understand the problem. Instead they tried to convince me that their result wasnt affected by the bug or tried to express how evil the bot has become. Which doesnt matter at all in this case. So in my opinion those discussions will always end up the same. Its just about "please dont remove my points". And probably all good suggestions end up with much more work for the mods. And thats the reason I say we can do this, we can announce decisions and give time to talk but people should understand that for the most cases the decision was already made for good reasons. Id like to thank you all for your kind words.

Okay guys I restored now all of your results because its simply not worth it to discuss this any further. If you would provide a minimum amount of fairness: Please write down your actual FSB / multiplier combination in the comments section and correct your score accordingly. If you dont know it anymore, please be honest and delete your score. If you dont, its also okay as whole result db is already a mess with or without those scores doesnt matter anymore. BTW, as these were almost _all_ Air or Water based results (except one SS) despite someone claiming Dice and LN2 in the time you write lengthy essays, contact your lawyers (zu viel Tagesfreizeit?), try to explain why possibly any CPU-Z result can differ up to 20% on those old systems and explain why no one never faced this bug despite everyone continual claiming how much time they invested on those old systems, you could simply put back your air coolers on that systems and make a new validation with current CPU-Z. Its really funny to see how creative people can get when they need to find excuses. Somehow I feel that you guys miss entirely that it just was just about the CPU frequency scores. Its not like we moderated SuperPI scores or something despite these scores also show wrong frequencies. Or in other words these were 'just' 37 submissions with old hardware which you can get for free from scrapyard or for very little money on ebay. Of course I know its still hard work and its not a great feeling when this work disappears over night. But what really makes me thinking is the fact that some of you still dont understand that this is something which needs to be done to provide a fair competition. But everyone just look what he looses. No one sees what the community gains by clean rankings which can be trusted. About the screenshot issue: If you would mind to take a look at rules section of the Cinebench benchmarks, you see an example image how your result screen has to look like. And there you see that the render scene is always completely visible. Thats the red line around the CB window btw. So this is no new rule. The only thing which changed was the way how we enforced this rule. In the past we just approved those scores despite we knew that they were actually against the rules. After it came to our attention that some people altered the rendered scene we changed our behavior and moderated all submissions with overlapping windows or similar. Because we dont have the men force anymore to reproduce suspicious results, we are stricter now for good reason. Old subs stay in as we dont have the time to went through every category and clean results but if we are in doubt about the correctness of a score we moderate it too without thinking too long. Because you agreed to the rules, it is your duty to obey them. Edit: In fact it seems Christian Ney changed the example screenshots in February last year. I have to admit that there wasnt any news about this which is shame. On the other hand this rule is now over one year old. Actually time enough. To quote our general rules: So clear speaking we have the right to approve your submission. But its not that you have the right to say we must. This is not democracy, we have no democracy on hwbot. Keep in mind that this is a service where you agreed to accept its rules. It is a free service, we don't get any money for this. You _can't_ compare this to a government who needs to care for his citizens. And that is the reason why we need to make decisions which no one likes but are essential to keep this service running. As I said already before we are a very small team and need to take for thousands of submissions and its hard to keep up just with the reported stuff and competitions. How do you think this all ends if we need to permanently think about which submission with a verification issue we approve or not approve? Especially all those discussions afterwards "Why do you accept submission from member A and moderated submission from member B". This is just nothing what a free service with a small team is able to provide. I have also big headache just when I think about those numerous issues the bot has. Lots of unresolved smaller and bigger bugs that exists for years, a single developer left that you need to beg just to fix at least the high priority ones if at all, the Windows 8/10 issue where no one found a proper solution yet, cheat apps for benchmarks, bugged benchmarks, users finding bugs and marketing it as a tweak and and and... If there will be ever again a strong team behind hwbot trying to fix those issues, it wont be possible without cleaning the result database, it wont be possible without removing buggy benchmarks, it wont be possible without people loosing points or results, I wont be possible without making some people angry but if it helps to consolidate the bot, it needs to be done. But if its already a problem for such a crystal clear case and such a low amount of subs like this one I see no future for the bot. And that is the reason I retire today from hwbot duty. There is simply no point in spending any more time on this. Id like to thank all the guys who have the understanding how a community works and how its necessary that the rankings arent a chaos and stay meaningful. I would advice the wise guys to write an application to Alby for volunteering as HWBot admin. After all those years I'm out, sincerely yours, Gregor

Yes its really a shame. Its a shame that this bug could last for 4 years without anyone, except me, contacting CPU-Z authors. Its a shame that nobody stands up when he faces those bugs. You guys say all the time how experienced you are with old hardware. Yet when boot screen says 280 MHz and CPU-Z says 300 MHz you keep calm because its an advantage for you. As you are all so "experienced" you dont think its strange when you set an FSB of 124 but CPU-Z says 100. You dont think its something wrong when old Pentium MMX CPUs have high multipliers? You open AIDA and CPU speed differs, you dont wonder why? I really wonder how I could spot this problem with my "non-existing competence". What a shame for you. And thats the real problem. You guys have the experience with those old platforms. So none of you can tell me that you didnt stumbled about this problem in the past. Yet none of you started a thread here in the forums or contacted CPU-Z. There are and there will be always software bugs. You have to understand that it is your responsibility as community to help to fix those bugs. But you just did nothing. A now you are starting a rant why hwbot is so evil because we removed those subs. How could we dare without asking you? It makes me sad that some of you fail to see the bigger picture. Its not that I had fun when I removed those submissions. It makes work. You have to understand that results which cant be trusted because of a known software bug cant stay in the ranking even if it was made with motherboards stock clocks. It also makes no sense to ask for further proof as the rules ask for a CPU-Z validation. They dont ask for an AIDA screenshot. So no trusty CPU-Z validation no score. Period. I cant tell how Turrican would handle things. I just want to say that in the last years many things have changed. I just say Windows 10, EVGA SR-2 timer bugs and we currently face a lot of similar issues with buggy benchmarks. And sadly a lot of users who thought they found a "tweak" while it was just bug using. Your reactions is making me really sad and I don't know what it justifies to spend a lot of time in such a toxic environment. This makes me understand why the whole moderation team is basically gone.

I dont know why you are thinking that you are not affected by this bug? Your link says that you were running this CPU with 124x4 resulting in 496Mhz. Yet your score on hwbot is 500Mhz with multiplier of 5 (correct me if Im wrong but this multiplier is not possible with this CPU). Now just think about someone who tries to beat your score with the current (bug free) CPU-Z version. If he just do the same like you did (124x4) = 496Mhz he would be always second place. Yet he scored actually the same. Wouldn't he deserve to share the first place in the ranking with you? I would really recommend to read twice the quotes of Antinomy. He perfectly describes how changing the FSB can result in bugged scores. The variance between the actual clock speed can be 0.5 MHz up to 40 MHz. In any case its bugged. And as I dont have the possibility to check what your actual speed was, the scores got removed.

There where some subs from old school competition which needed to be removed but those werent final scores. Thank you for your offer, we need every help we can get.