Usual bunnyextraction in Hwbot,how to not encourage overclocking

[Alex@ro]

Hy there folks,

 

Today two of my hard-worked submissions were removed in an absolute communist way by Christian Ney.

 

Now,what is this about:

 

http://hwbot.org/submission/2681654_alex_ro_aquamark_geforce_gtx_980_559111_marks'>http://hwbot.org/submission/2681654_alex_ro_aquamark_geforce_gtx_980_559111_marks

 

http://hwbot.org/submission/2686469_alex_ro_hwbot_prime_core_i7_4770k_7084.07_pps'>http://hwbot.org/submission/2686469_alex_ro_hwbot_prime_core_i7_4770k_7084.07_pps

 

The problem,i mean the etternal problem appears with the wrapper.Nowdays is getting tougher and complicated to just post a bench results because of this.And i might add it is not a proper way to encourage this damn " sport " by making things harder then they already are.

 

Ok,so what is this about.In the submission i do not have the info's in the wrapper picture but in an additional screenshot i provided.The reason i could not make a proper wrapper screenshot is because each time i opened all cpu-z and gpu-z together with wrapper and tried to make screenshot within wrapper(save file ) i got a crash.

 

Obviously i see no problem in my submissions since:

 

1. it is the same identical result with same checksum

 

2..In the rules it says:

 

http://hwbot.org/news/882_application_10_rules/

 

Verification datafile Mandatory for submissions

 

then :

 

Verification screenshot requirements

Aquamark3 main window

Aquamark3 score and subtest scores

CPU-Z CPU tab

CPU-Z Memory tab

CPU-Z Mainboard tab, if IGP has been used

GPU-Z Graphics Card tab (Rivatuner may be used if GPU-Z fails to correctly report the GPU)

 

Since we are talking about two different things:

 

verification datafile

verification screenshot

 

It does not say the verification screenshot from datafile...

 

Now since Christian Ney takes his actions in communist style,that means he usually takes action then ask questions,or only takes actions by his own decision i find this a stupid situation.

 

This person probably does not know how much hard work is behind a result that sometimes is wasted because of the damn wrapper.

 

Secondly my both sumission were done near other benchers in Moskow arena and in the presence of the "overlord of overclocking" Massman Pieter.

 

 

Basically,i see things chance on-the-fly here with effects on submission that were done in the past and considered ok.

 

If my submission was not ok in the first place i should had been notified but this was not the case because Chrsitian Ney probably slept in his underwear or was too busy building his review-site.

 

Secondly,the point here is that the result is perfetly fine and valid but due to the glitches in regulations the submission is being wrong.

 

I see that things are not encouraged to get as friendly an easy they could be,but instead submitting a result nowdays is rather a complicated and frustrating thing to do....

 

Same stupid rules on this submissions:

 

http://hwbot.org/submission/2490850

http://hwbot.org/submission/2672977

http://hwbot.org/submission/2686469

http://hwbot.org/submission/2653975

http://hwbot.org/submission/2747364

http://hwbot.org/submission/2637707

http://hwbot.org/submission/2498596

http://hwbot.org/submission/2480041

http://hwbot.org/submission/2541683

http://hwbot.org/submission/2497139

http://hwbot.org/submission/2532061

http://hwbot.org/submission/2475323

http://hwbot.org/submission/2716280

http://hwbot.org/submission/2510136

http://hwbot.org/submission/2507256

http://hwbot.org/submission/2724607

http://hwbot.org/submission/2488585

http://hwbot.org/submission/2485129

http://hwbot.org/submission/2600275

http://hwbot.org/submission/2670345

http://hwbot.org/submission/2681654

http://hwbot.org/submission/2464158

http://hwbot.org/submission/2698353

http://hwbot.org/submission/2457932

http://hwbot.org/submission/2653592

 

 

So...how is it hwbot?

[TaPaKaH]

Totally agreed that the results should not have been removed.

 

Forcing everyone to only use the screenshot featured in the datafile does not add anything in terms of security, just makes life a lot harder since you can never be sure that important information is not overlapped over (i.e. screenshot and hence whole result "is ok") until you go online and submit.

[Christian Ney]

CN blocks results:

 

CN doesn't block results:

 

You guys should stop playing the "When others do it it's not ok, when you do it it's ok" game.

Also, when using wrapper/datafile, the validation screenshot is the one contained in the datafile not the one you upload under "pictures of your system". This is the reason why the "upload verification screenshot:" field is missing and it's written "Using supplied data file. No further verification is required.".

The whole point of the validation file was to have the verification screenshot embedded.

 

Btw, for the people who can't see the two blocked submissions, here are the two verification screenshots:

http://img.hwbot.org/u12138/image_id_1295962.jpg

http://img.hwbot.org/u12138/image_id_1291996.png

Edited February 1, 2015 by Christian Ney

[Alex@ro]

Yes,but that is not clearly written in the rules which makes you a communist for blocking already uploaded results.

 

So wtf is wrong with this result beside your stupid rule:

 

http://hwbot.org/submission/2681654_alex_ro_aquamark_geforce_gtx_980_559111_marks

 

See here:

 

screenshot made from the wrapper,could not save screenwhot from wrapper when opened cpu-z and gpu-z,only by standalone app:

 

 

screenshot made by standalone app,exact same score,checksum with all details ok:

 

 

What exactly is wrong because from the way the rules are written there is nothing wrong.It says verification screenshot,not the verification screenshot from the wrapper file.

 

 

I expect Massman to have a word in this because every rule should be properly written and when it is modified to have it;s effect on future submissions,not past.

[Leeghoofd]

First off all there is no personal vendetta or such going Alex. You make it shine out in that way as you are getting treated badly while others are apparently not. Secondly I didn't know communist behaviour was related to do doing it all on your own without asking anybody... where does all this frustration come from?

 

 

Let us start with the basics:

 

Why do submissions get blocked?

 

1) People report them

2) Scores are bugged (intentionally or not)

3) Screenshots lack verification

 

Both Christian and El Genieben are workhorses, two human beings that take the effort to go in their free time to search for particular/special scores in the huge score database of HWBOT.

 

Today you get the penalty, next day it will be me or some other person. A score achieved by using LN2/time and now all of the sudden it might get removed. Does that make anyone happy, ofcourse not. Question for you: Do you have any idea how many scores have been verified or still have to be checked ? Don't think so, so it is not something that can be done on a matter of hours. so plz for starters don't take it personally.

 

Yes it is your own perogative to counteract a decision made by an admin/moderator but starting these kinds of threads including certain accusations ain't going to help at all. Yep even the moderators are only human and can block perfectly good scores. So address issues in polite and mature way, conversation is the only way something can be achieved or changed. Look at it from their side, they spend so much time to get things right and straight for ALL members.

 

Now honestly Alex do you think they wanna damage our hobby? Yes don't forget it is still a hobby, so lighten up man. Sure there is money involved, but it should be first of all a way to spend your time with. Another question: How many users had their scores being removed for PCmark05? How many already for UCBench? Regulations were not clear: some tweaks were at a certain moment allowed. Than something changed and scores got reported and deleted. Did I lose points, yeap I did lose a lot for the team. I don't care for my own ranking as I'm a team player. But let us focus on the regulations issue and the cheating that constantly occurs. Again no-one is calling names here, so don't take it personally. Too many scores are bugged, tricked you name it. Photoshop has become as common as taking a selfie. Many think a few scores might get them on top and open the gates of free hardware. Others that are at that top want to stay there and might use loopholes or even assume anything goes. It is not an ideal world and some things have to be addressed, expect some losses.

 

The HWBOT prime wrapper is indeed an issue. I usually save two screenshots to avoid the overlap thing. Honestly it should evolve in the same usage as the wrapper for AM3 and Heaven. Where one is obliged to open a CPU & CPU mem tab and then can press the save button and that is where it should be fully validated. It is an art to keep a system on the edge of stability up and running to make a proper screenshot.

 

In your above AM3 score you provide the score from the wrapper with nothing in it... so the score is missing stuff don't you agree with that comment ? The second screenshot has all the required tabs, but is not made by the wrapper, which leaves room for you too add later on CPU-Z, GPU-Z and other stuff. A wrapper is made to leave less room open for photoshop artists and co. Does it completely avoid it, ofcourse not like Sam stated.

 

 

The HWBOT Admin/moderators are already discussing this behind the scenes and it is not because one thing is not right today, that it won't be rectified tomorrow. Everything is a learning curve and experience is sometimes defined as the sum of all the errors. So don't get all too wound up, trying to define conspiracy theories, etc as there should be none... Is it frustrating at some points, yep it is, but you have to thank those that have defined their own set of rules that the HWBOT rules are in a constant changing mode... Nothing is changed over night...

Edited February 1, 2015 by Leeghoofd

[Alex@ro]

Obviously a personal vendetta is going fine

 

Hello,

An HWBOT moderator, "Christian Ney", has blocked one of your submitted scores. It has marked one of your submissions as 'insufficient verification'.

This was the reason the user gave:

oops "

 

 

So instead of finding a mature way like modifying the wrapper like Albrecht said the main job is to remove hard-worked past scores .

 

My issue is:

 

A valid score is getting removed because the damn submission is not ok by some rules that are not really clear.The problem is the submission is not by the rules but the score is ok,so how can we improve if we focus on quality of submission and not of the scores?

[Leeghoofd]

The coder of the benchmark also has to work along ( referrring to the tragic UCbench thing) or El Genieben has to be able to tackle it... For the Vendetta thing, now it will be either Genieben or CN that will block your scores, even if not being reported by another user so you have a 50% chance. Again not everybody can rewrite the code or is allowed too do so.

 

Like I said before things don't change over night and Roman has stated it also that new rules are in the making... No action is done on pupose by anyone of the HWBOt crew to p i s s any of you guys off. Howeverit is all done to avoid bugged or tricked scores. It all takes loads of time and it might perfectly be that your score and others might be up again tomorrow... and like everything most things have a learning curve, sometimes it takes a few errors to set some things on the right track...

 

Can we all kiss and hugg now

 

 

ps: I'm not involved at all in this "communist" machinery, just giving my own two cents on the matter

Edited February 1, 2015 by Leeghoofd

[Christian Ney]

Obviously a personal vendetta is going fine

 

It's not. Somebody actually reported that score to me and I blocked it (you know why).

 

If I were to do personal vendetta, you would know it

 

Ho and so you know usually when a user has some scores blocked or edited, we (at least I) go over his other scores. Especially in case of wrong hardware match.

Edited February 1, 2015 by Christian Ney

[Splave]

Results like this must be blocked. Its too easy to get a result save screen then set screen as system background then open cpuzs etc. Wrapper fixes this by taking the screenshot

[Alex@ro]

It's the same checksum and score,you are implying that i could had saved the score,then set background(you see position of wrapper is different too ) then change hardware platform and finally save screen?

 

This is just another way of overdoing things in hwbot style.A proper way of moderation was to check all these results to see if that's ok,after all it is some hard work and spent money here.Then change the wrapper and make it do the screenshot only after cpu-z and gpu-z opened.

 

Basically to check i made a proper submission i need to have permanent second computer to verify data file,internet connection,etc.Have we forgot overclock is about a passion and not how to make spectacular correct submission and be afraid that someone will erase it after a few months ?

Edited February 2, 2015 by Alex@ro

[matose]

Complicating things too much usually drives people away. The PR benching already started doing that, continuing with rules that benefit only some people, etc! Keep up the good work HWBot, you're on the "right" path...

[Smoke]

So, you accuse us in Photoshop?

[TerraRaptor]

I also don't like results are being blocked even if they are fully in line with classic verification guidelines. Does anyone think Alex actually didn't achieve these results?

[Splave]

So, you accuse us in Photoshop?

 

Not at all, not talking about your case specifically.

 

Okay here is the process. Use whatever platform you like. Maybe 4 core 8 thread on air can take 4670k hwbbot prime wr. Get score with 4770k. Take screen shot with no windows up. Get result file.

 

Then setup 4670k rig, set your screenshot as desktop background. Open cpuz windows. Then just slowr mode clock up to 6.6ghz and capture your screen shot that is not in the wrapper. Then you can post the wrapper file and your separate screen shot and its valid right

 

Now you have 4670k hwbot prime we with air cooled 4770k.

 

This is the point of the wrapper so we cannot touch the screen shot.

[Alex@ro]

Yea right...But check hwbot prime,there it says the name of the cpu....You know what the bunnyextractiontiest part is with my scores?The fact that i got them in Asus Aooc in Moskow live benching with 20 persons including Massman around So the result is 100% valid but the sumission is not?

 

It is my right to be annoyed that with one click Christian Ney bunnyed all of our work because the regulations are not damn clear in first place.

 

Want to chance something on the road? Do it by clearing the rules and blocking future submissions....

[TaPaKaH]

Okay here is the process. Use whatever platform you like. Maybe 4 core 8 thread on air can take 4670k hwbbot prime wr. Get score with 4770k. Take screen shot with no windows up. Get result file.

 

Then setup 4670k rig, set your screenshot as desktop background. Open cpuz windows. Then just slowr mode clock up to 6.6ghz and capture your screen shot that is not in the wrapper. Then you can post the wrapper file and your separate screen shot and its valid right

 

Now you have 4670k hwbot prime we with air cooled 4770k.

 

This is the point of the wrapper so we cannot touch the screen shot.

Also works the other way around - you can have photoshopped CPU-Z windows set as desktop background, open wrapper, get a score, take screenshot with the wrapper and it will look perfectly legit.

[Splave]

Bingo

[Gunslinger]

I agree with what you guys are saying 100%.

 

But in this case, they're not being consistent with what was done in the past with Heaven, which was virtually the exact same scenario. Remember when people would save the data file without CPUz and GPUz open? They didn't just automatically block those scores, they accepted them so long as the bonus "system picture" had the remainder of what was needed.

 

When accepting/blocking scores, IMO, they need to remain consistent above all else.

[crustytheclown]

I'm confused if you guys are questioning the wrapper's integrity or the overclocker's one (or both lol).

 

From the overclocker's perspective as in every other benchmark he (or she) does not have to prove everytime that he is not an elephant.

In my humble opinion staff should have ways to check the integrity of any benchmark and not taking down scores because of doubt.

This is vey very demanding of them of course but history (including myself) have teached them to be skeptical about any result that seems bugged,cheated,whatever.Tough descision to start saying who is to blame here.

 

Checking thing from the Benchmarks perspective:

Especially for Aquamark and not wanting to add oil to the fire it is not the wrappers fault.

You guys wanted the wrapper not to hang your scores down so to be able to compete with the older version and this kind of wrapper IS the only way.

It has a simple system info that many of you guys disable (no comment here) and a simple screenshot application.Nothing more nothing less and with the least demanding system resources.

But also here the coin has two sides.Aquamark is by far the least acceptable benchmark in case of integrity.You guys have been talking about changing backrounds,cpu's and using photoshop,but this benchmark is a joke the way it is built... You can have 700k with air cooled core 2 cpu ( even amd cpu lol) and still have system info enabled and a valid check sum and not even have to reboot your system.I think the moderators know this and that's why they are double suspicious of bugged,cheated results.

 

With all above i'm not accusing anyone of anything.A moderators work is tough deal with it so overclockers should be giving them the proof (screenshots,system info) the way they want.On the other hand hwbot should give the overclockers a better tool than this wrapper (not accusing the developer of course,this is what the overclockers wanted at the time developed).

 

I've been an overclocker for a looooong time and i've been accused of many things so i think a deserve to have an opinion on this matter.My 2 cents.

[matose]

He is not the only one with blocked scores, I also have 2 blocked and many others...

 

Splave, al the details regarding HW configuration is in the wrapper file and also on the screen in the wrapper window... so your scenario is wrong in this case

[Leeghoofd]

Yea right...But check hwbot prime,there it says the name of the cpu....You know what the bunnyextractiontiest part is with my scores?The fact that i got them in Asus Aooc in Moskow live benching with 20 persons including Massman around So the result is 100% valid but the sumission is not?

 

Did anyone present verify the score ? Did anyone verify the way you took the screenie ? Lol, that claim is so off track Alex... it is not because a HWbot staff member is in the room that all scores are automatically legit lol. Even after competitions scores are rechecked for submission issues, buggs etc... but they need to figure out this wrapper thing asap what is allowed yes or no... this is getting out of bounce and people start to take it too personally

 

Off topic: Everybody knows Smoke has 30 legit keys for Photoshop lol, a full hardware crew modding the cards, 6 benchers, 3 photoshop teams and a room with a swimming pool, this thread is so escalating lol

Edited February 2, 2015 by Leeghoofd

[Alex@ro]

Oh,and regarding details,look at this type of submission,in fact look at a lot of XTU subs without print screen:

 

http://hwbot.org/submission/2569509_doc.brown_xtu_core_i5_4670k_1267_marks

 

You can see a lot of detail and this is a fully valid result right?Instead the submission that were blocked had far more details but considered insufucient proof no?

[Leeghoofd]

Nope, there is no value to compare apples with oranges, XTU never required any screenshot even though sometimes it detects the CPU speed wrong.

 

Verification screenshot requirements: N/A

Verification datafile: Mandatory for submissions

Example screenshot: N/A

 

 

That submission is just a perfect example of user lazyness to properly submit the correct speeds and settings...

 

Just await the final call of the moderator team, you are not the only thing they have to deal with and dripping more oil on a hot plate will not change anything to speed up the process...

[dinos22]

talk about overreacting

[robbo2]

My only gripe with this is that as far as I am concerned my sub complied with the rules. No where in the rules does it say anything about a data file and saving the data file with cpu-z and gpu-z open. If it was there, I would have done that. Some where it's changed and no one bothered to update the rules. Now a lot of people are paying the price.

 

In fact, when I first decided to bench AM3, I downloaded it directly from the downloads page but it was the incorrect version.