TASOS Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 An other tricky question , from this weird user-hobbyist (that's me) Why is it consider fair (and obviously allowed) for an elite member to gain hardware and global and HTPP and GTPP points from E.S. hardware (current gen also) ... and other members cant ? Isnt that an other example of altering ALL point awarded rankings ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaPaKaH Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 Everybody can get points from ES as long as it's not current-gen. If it's current gen and you want points - move to Elite league. Where is the problem exactly? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TASOS Posted March 25, 2015 Author Share Posted March 25, 2015 Everybody can get points from ES as long as it's not current-gen. If it's current gen and you want points - move to Elite league. Where is the problem exactly? Yes , i pointed the current gen for that reason. That is elite only. At this point , i am only asking as a question , to see what people here thinking about it. Whether it seems fair or not. Moving to Elite is not an option , when you dont have the means to be an Elite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rsnubje Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 If you are able to get current gen ES samples(other than buying) I think you belong in Elite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K404 Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 That's one of the main reasons for the Elite league... a place for the people with special access to go, without the rest of the community pointing out how unfair it is for the uber connected to compete directly against those with no contacts. If you don't have the rest of the hardware necessary to compete in Elite.... you can always say "no thankyou" to hardware Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TASOS Posted March 25, 2015 Author Share Posted March 25, 2015 The English language is not my strong point , and it seems from the answers i'm getting , that i didnt express my thoughts correctly. I'm not questioning nor asking about the requirements needed to be an elite user. What i'm asking here is whether this privilege of beeing an elite user justifies the wright of beeing the only one allowed to get points with current gen E.S. hardware. ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I.nfraR.ed Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 (edited) If I understand correctly what you're saying, then answers are in line with your question. In fact everyone is allowed to get points with current-gen ES, because if you have samples, then you're not an ordinary bencher and belong to Elite. So I don't see where the problem is Current-gen ES are not allowed in normal competitions, so it is perfectly fine by me. If you still managed to somehow get a current-gen ES CPU, but don't want to move to Elite, why would you insist on getting points for that CPU? If your point is that ES are clearly better and no retail can beat 'em, then think about who will be on top if ES hardware was not allowed. Don't you think same guys will be on top no matter ES or retail? In other words: I don't care Have many other more important thing in real life to worry about. HWBOT for me is mostly for fun and some competition element. Edited March 25, 2015 by I.nfraR.ed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K404 Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 What i'm asking here is whether this privilege of beeing an elite user justifies the wright of beeing the only one allowed to get points with current gen E.S. hardware. ? Maybe I am still not understanding you Elite is a forced consequence of having access to the parts. A bencher does not need to move to Elite before they can get special hardware. Ummmm.... is that a helpful answer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TASOS Posted March 25, 2015 Author Share Posted March 25, 2015 If I understand correctly what you're saying, then answers are in line with your question. No,you are mistaken , they are not. That's why i opened this thread. In fact everyone is allowed to get points with current-gen ES, because if you have samples, then you're not an ordinary bencher and belong to Elite. No again. It's obvious , that not everyone is allowed to get points with current gen E.S. hardware. And if you obtain by pure luck an E.S. hardware , that doesnt make you an elite user. So I don't see where the problem is Are you still not seeing it ? Read at the end of this post. Current-gen ES are not allowed in normal competitions, so it is perfectly fine by me. I am not talking about competitions here. I am talking about regular submissions. If you still managed to somehow get a current-gen ES CPU, but don't want to move to Elite, why would you insist on getting points for that CPU? Why not ? I am going to bench it ... right ? Why shouldnt i get points for it ? If your point is that ES are clearly better and no retail can beat 'em, then think about who will be on top if ES hardware was not allowed. Don't you think same guys will be on top no matter ES or retail? I didnt say anything at all , about that part. That's your personal speculation. In other words: I don't care Have many other more important thing in real life to worry about. HWBOT for me is mostly for fun and some competition element. That's ok with me. I may also dont care about ALL member's problems in here (for some of them , i do). It happens , that you dont care about this specific one. No problem. I believe that most of us , have more important things to do , in our real life's ... but that fact is irrelevant to the question asked here. /. The bottom line here is : By pure luck , i got my hands on a current E.S. hardware. I am not an elite member and i dont qualify to be one. Why is there such a restriction for the rest non-elite members ? If there was a seperate elite ranking , i would understand the reason not to take part in their point award system. But , since it's a unified point system for ALL members. Why should one get points and the other wont. ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaPaKaH Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 How do you know/prove if someone else gets a current-gen ES by "pure luck" or by having a direct job responsibility? You have to draw a strict line somewhere and not allowing current-gen ES outside the Elite league is the solution that makes most sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K404 Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 This rule has been in place for years.... was it ever a problem before? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TASOS Posted March 25, 2015 Author Share Posted March 25, 2015 How do you know/prove if someone else gets a current-gen ES by "pure luck" or by having a direct job responsibility? Easy. The pure luck , is defined by 1 item a year , or 1 item per two years , or 1 item every three years ... and so on. You have to draw a strict line somewhere and not allowing current-gen ES outside the Elite league is the solution that makes most sense. Yes , i could accept that , if it worked two ways. Meaning that , retail hardware should give points only to regular users , since elite's have the exclucive privilege for E.S. Yes you are right. E.S. for elite only. Retail for the rest (only) of us. I like that scenario Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TASOS Posted March 25, 2015 Author Share Posted March 25, 2015 This rule has been in place for years.... was it ever a problem before? I honestly dont recall , it's been years like that. After all , the user's categories are somehow fresh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.Scott Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 We've had this discussion before my friend. We lost. http://forum.hwbot.org/showthread.php?t=102364&highlight=elite+hardware+points Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TASOS Posted March 25, 2015 Author Share Posted March 25, 2015 We've had this discussion before my friend. We lost.http://forum.hwbot.org/showthread.php?t=102364&highlight=elite+hardware+points I had to give it a try. Sometimes things change , people change , the way of thinking changes ... I dont often have the chance to get my hands on , an expensive high-end parts (even as E.S.) I guess , i'll have to drop this opportunity. Back to the old stuff,then. /. May i request from the Clerk's Office , to have my thread noted please ? Thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sumonpathak Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 (edited) This rule has been in place for years.... was it ever a problem before? pardon me but i think the reason was being earlier ES used to behave differently and 90% of the time they were better than retail samples? Now a days most of the ES are plain potatoes..binning a 100 chip(which some of the top guys do) gives a better chance than getting an ES. So IMHO the "ES only for Elite" rule needs to go..times change..situation changes..HWBOT must change too. Also i wonder what would happen if I ask for complete removal of ES points? Edited March 28, 2015 by sumonpathak Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K404 Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 pardon me but i think the reason was being earlier ES used to behave differently and 90% of the time they were better than retail samples? Now a days most of the ES are plain potatoes..binning a 100 chip(which some of the top guys do) gives a better chance than getting an ES. So IMHO the "ES only for Elite" rule needs to go..times change..situation changes..HWBOT must change too. Also i wonder what would happen if I ask for complete removal of ES points? The reason "doesn't matter" it's been that way for years. So... someone connected can bin 100 high-end latest-gen ES for free and get a good lead when NDA lifts and we ALL know it will statistically be months before anyone WHO IS PAYING FOR IT THEMSELVES can match that amount of binning, even if the final MHz improve. The ES rule is made between ES being better and the advantage that people with access have in the months leading up to and just after launch day. We all know that people are benching Broadwell now, right? Yes, the last few years have not seen ES be better than the best retail WHAT WILL HAPPEN THE NEXT TIME ES *IS* FUNDAMENTALLY BETTER THAN RETAIL? Statistically, it is just a matter of time. Think AHEAD. We all know there will be a s***storm. I knew this debate wasn't done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaPaKaH Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 Even now, 5960X ES chips are better than retails. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sumonpathak Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 LE sigh... seems like a lot of guys are scared for competition Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massman Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 The ES rule is made between ES being better and the advantage that people with access have in the months leading up to and just after launch day. We all know that people are benching Broadwell now, right? // personal opinion below // Playing the devil's advocate here, there's not much difference with the Titan X for example. If we reduce the ES debate to solely the problem of early access, we're simply shifting the problem from early access to early support and purchase. Which ultimately boils down to good connections and large wallets. The only ruling that really has an effect is the measurements taking in the competitions, where freshly released hardware is not allowed in ongoing competitions. (the titan x was released 14 days ago and we could argue that the points are still up for grabs 'easily' for the early adopters) The perverse effect of the ES ban is that people who perhaps don't have access to the latest hardware because it's too expensive, but get to play with it via review seeding or even a workshop, are unable to participate in the rankings. I find the argument that we should look in to the definition of Elite and perhaps re-evaluate at least worth of consideration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators websmile Posted March 30, 2015 Administrators Share Posted March 30, 2015 (edited) Pieter, when you mention competitions here, I have a question. How do we justify the fact that on hwbot organized comps employees of hardware vendors and manufacturers are ruled out, which mostly have access to ES anyway, which is ruled out, but that employees of distributors who can bin hundreds of retail cpus for free as well as they have early unlimited access to all hardware including expensive vgas and so on can participate? It does not touch me directly as you know, but when we talk about justice and logic in rules like discussed here on the ES matter, I would be interested to hear your opinion on this as well Edited March 30, 2015 by websmile Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massman Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 (edited) I don't think there is a problem with the justification, but that's not really the core of the issue. ES, early access, backing by distributor, working for vendor, ... they are all forms of advantage over competition. It also includes: knowing hardware binners personally, having cheap access to LN2, access to good RMA terms. All of these things are external to the overclocker. They are not related to the "inherent" capability of someone to push the score to the maximum. I mean, even the country GDP is related to this hobby, since less fortunate areas have less access to the really high-end hardware. What we (= the community) are struggling with is to find a good answer to eliminating these factors from the equation. If not in practice, at least in perception. It's a really difficult puzzle, actually. //edit1: this is a personal opinion of course. //edit2: I think that this is a matter of reconsidering the way overclocking is structured. There are things we cannot change from HWBOT. For example, we don't really have a good idea of how the Elite see overclocking move forward. There are many opinions, but not really a clear direction forward or strong message (apart from "this is all shit" and "we need to go back to how it was", of course). Another issue related to this is something that's being discussed in the forum already here: http://forum.hwbot.org/showthread.php?t=123405. Edited March 30, 2015 by Massman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators websmile Posted March 30, 2015 Administrators Share Posted March 30, 2015 Agreed, there will always be differences in access to hardware and ressources, this is no problem but a fact, what you can try is to lower the impact it makes on perception and you can also try to diminish impact on some of the rankings and competitions. The way to do so is difficult, I agree, and the limit between employee and excess support is floating and hard to define. Nontheless there have to be made decisions now and in the future about this and I wish a lot of luck and wisdom to the staff to do this. But the question I had was not answered, why are employees of vendors out and employees of distributors with better retail access accepted at comps. It is a bit weird for me if I see this and only judge it by hardware access, of course I am aware of the advantages you can have if you get special bios or prebinned vga by vendor. Well, we will see... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
der8auer Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 (edited) It just makes sense to exclude vendor employees from competitions. I mean how would it look if GIGABYTE held a competition and HiCookie would beat everyone and get the prizes? And ofc you don't want an inhouse bencher from any other vendor to participate or win your competition. And early unlimited access at distributors. I'd need a real world example to belive this. Even Ian bought his Titan X and didn't get it for free from OCUK - just as an example. Ofc you have advantages but where is the difference to getting a bunnyextractionload of hardware from vendors directly? I know a lot of guys who recieve pretested GPUs and CPUs. So where's the difference? Edited March 30, 2015 by der8auer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators websmile Posted March 30, 2015 Administrators Share Posted March 30, 2015 (edited) So you want to state that there are lots of people who get pretested retail cpus in bunnyextraction masses from vendors and don´t work for vendors or manufacturers or distributors? That´s indeed new to me and matches no ocer I talked to, on vgas I know that samples are sent out that are often much better than retails. And I did not talk about early unlimited access at distributors, I talked about employees, which is different from support, with unlimited access for example to cpus - I think this is a difference, and for me it leaves a bad taste for example when people who pay for their binning or have to make stunts for it have to compete with people with unlimited cpu access at a competition. If you are full time employee in hardware business I see no difference if you work a inhouse clocker for asus or alternate Edited March 30, 2015 by websmile typo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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