Jumper118 Posted September 18, 2017 Share Posted September 18, 2017 Could we have a stage in the next competition or team/country cup that includes Xeons and titans please. I would Like to see some monster scores. I'm sure there are people with sr2, srx, d8 ws etc gathering dust somewhere Maybe have stage 1: Lga771 xeon Stage 2 Lga 1366 xeon Stage 3 Lga 2011 xeon Stage 4 Lga2011-3 xeon Have both single and dual socket config. Then titans: Stage 1: Kepler titans Stage 2: Maxwell titans Stage 3: Pascal titans Tbh titan are only like 'ultra' version of cards in the past and other than the name have no real difference to gaming class cards. It's not like a p100 with 5200 cores and hbm 2 that cost £10k a piece. Maybe even allow mainstream socket Xeons as well. Would be great Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators websmile Posted September 18, 2017 Administrators Share Posted September 18, 2017 I don´t see servers at a community competition like country cup because of the industry advantage and it makes not much sense to allow them by age, we had enough trouble now with people seeing guideline exemption made and then going server for next comp despite not being allowed. Maybe Pieter can think about a server hardware competition as standalone, and we have a lot of results at database so these dont seem to catch dust all the time. On the Titans, maybe we can allow some of the older models now for some competitions. The fact remains that these are expensive and some of these you have to destroy to mod them, which is worst part Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dead Things Posted September 26, 2017 Share Posted September 26, 2017 While this standpoint generally makes sense, I do think pre-Sandy UP & DP Xeons represent an exception, similar to how S939 Opterons were oft-used as desktop parts. S771 adapters for S775 and LGA1366 Xeons (whether in SR-2 or in UP board like RIIIE) were frequently used for desktop parts - so it would be fun to play with these platforms again. And I don't think either necessarily gives an advantage to industry players because they were enthusiast-focused platforms, and not server-focused. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yosarianilives Posted October 2, 2017 Share Posted October 2, 2017 As someone who has recently acquired an sr-2 I'd love to have a comp I could put it to use. But I'd also agree that it may be unfair to put it in comps that aren't based around server hw. But for UP platforms on 1366 or on 775 it'd be nice to use xeons. The top end xeons are currently cheaper than the top end desktop parts which kinda gives up the argument on older platforms that it's to keep enterprise out of consumer competitions. Even on x79 it makes sense to allow xeons IMHO as they are a popular 8c budget cpu now and it doesn't really hurt participation. I know for team comp when we had a call for people over at r/overclocking we had some people come with xeons that we couldn't accommodate other than to encourage them to OC for fun. So I think if xeons started being allowed in comps about the time data centers start upgrading and they become dirt cheap it would allow at least a little more participation in comps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unityofsaints Posted October 6, 2017 Share Posted October 6, 2017 This "industry advantage" argument is bit overplayed IMO. The same reason those people can bin lots of Xeons is the same reason I can pick them up by the kilo on Ebay - obsolesence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators websmile Posted October 6, 2017 Administrators Share Posted October 6, 2017 Good luck at buying 2011-3 xeons 16 cores+ for 1 million bucks, mabye you get a kilogram then Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yosarianilives Posted October 6, 2017 Share Posted October 6, 2017 LGA 2011-3 is fairly expensive, but if you look back to LGA 2011 for example, it's really not. Like I said, about the time data centers start upgrading xeons become more affordable than their i7 counterparts. 8c/16t 4p capable lga 2011 $40 Intel Xeon E5-4620 (B698-1696) 2.2GHz 16M 8 Cores 7.2GT/s SR0L4 LGA2011 CPU 8c/16t 2p capable lga 2011-3 $120 Intel Xeon E5-2630 V3 ES QEYW 8Core 2.2GHz 20M 16T 85W 22nm LGA2011-3 Processor even 10c/20t 2p capable lga 2011-3 for $200 INTEL XEON QS SR1XZ E5-2628L v3 2GHZ 25MB 10 CORES LGA2011-3 PROCESSOR | eBay Hell, lga 2011 12c/24t, which is max on this socket is sub $200 QTY 1x Intel ES/QS CPU E5-2651 V2 12-Cores 1.8Ghz 30MB LGA2011 QEFC | eBay If you want a little bit more clockspeed, 2.4 Ghz $365 QTY 1x Intel CPU E5-2695 V2 CPU 12-Cores 2.4Ghz 30MB Cache LGA2011 SR1BA | eBay Even the fastest 12c on lga 2011 is sub $600 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Intel-XEON-E5-2697v2-3-50GHz-12-Core-24-Threads-E5-2697-v2-30MB-SR19H-130W-/332400686357?epid=218329439&hash=item4d649ff515:g:akEAAOSwgeVZ1B0c 16c/32t lga 2011-3 2p capable for $440 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Intel-Xeon-E5-2675-V3-SR1XM-1-8GHZ-16Core-40MB-110W-32T-LGA2011-3-Processor-CPU-/112510005992?hash=item1a321e72e8:g:OtIAAOSwFlxZZebY 18c/36t lga 2011-3 2p capable $540 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Intel-Xeon-E5-2695-V4-ES-QHV4-2-0GHz-45M-18Core-135W-LGA2011-3-CPU-Processor-/112470194541?hash=item1a2fbef96d:g:~x4AAOSw8d5ZP2Of If for some reason you absolutely need 22c/44t xeon it's $1k http://www.ebay.com/itm/QHUP-E5-2669-V4-ES-2-10GHz-CPU-22-CORE-LGA-2011-3X99-C612-PROCESSOR-/172764488149?hash=item283990e1d5:g:MJsAAOSw~rpZXA-- My point is that you can't say that xeons at least lga 2011 and older are any harder to get than any HEDT cpu. These older xeon platforms are common budget platforms for people who need a lot of threads cheap. I know I made a NAS on LGA 771 2 years ago, it was $35 for a 2p board and $5 each for 4c xeons, and $36 for 24 gb of ecc ddr2. These were not some kind of lightning ebay deal I picked up either, these are common prices. Even on LGA 2011-3 you don't need to be enterprise to afford xeons anymore. I totally understand banning current gen xeons for comps, but it's like ES. Current gen ES makes you elite, old ES is just budget cpus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators websmile Posted October 6, 2017 Administrators Share Posted October 6, 2017 Two points, discussing this is futile because we have done this for years, still this needs clatification. First of all server hardware is allowed for hwbot but usually not for competitions , and this is indeed same as ES - ES and unreleased hardware are not allowed for competitions, maybe this is new to you, but it is part of the general rules. Second point is that we cannot go with ebay prices for hardware or that it now is not fastest anymore etc.We can not allow some parts of server stuff and other not, which is why we do not allow server hardware generally for comps (same new and old ES) to have a unified guideline for all. Mixing desktop and server will complicate hwbot even more at competitions, so I would be OK with an old school or community competition for server hardware only, but nothing mixed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unityofsaints Posted October 6, 2017 Share Posted October 6, 2017 Good luck at buying 2011-3 xeons 16 cores+ for 1 million bucks, mabye you get a kilogram then I was talking about 771/1366. Obviously there should be categories the same as we have for desktop chips, otherwise every comp would be won by someone with an 7920XE... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dead Things Posted October 6, 2017 Share Posted October 6, 2017 Why not? This is akin to being willfully ignorant of how people have actually been building computers for home use. For simplicity's sake, let's only look at the case of S1366 Xeons. Before SB-E was a thing, if you wanted 6C/12T without having to sell your firstborn, you went Xeon. In the real world, limiting S1366 comps to 970/980X/990X is actually favouring industry players compared to allowing Westmere Xeons because those chips were so much more expensive than their Xeon equivalents - even back then! I'm sorry, but this is really just a very narrow-minded viewpoint - a one-rule-fits-all approach. I thought with the allowance of S939 Opterons in the Team Cup that HWBOT was starting to realize this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr.paco Posted October 7, 2017 Share Posted October 7, 2017 I 'm confused. But I always thought Computer Hardware is Computer Hardware regardless if it was labeled SERVER or DESKTOP or LAPTOP etc. And that this is THE place for ALL computer HW not just favoring & glorifying the new n shiny desktop stuff. Thats the one thing I could never understand about HWbot on how they can segregate "server" hardware from ALL other computer hardware and think its OK. Referring to being treated equal... Comps as well as general rankings. Saying server components are expensive... For who? Because PLENTY of folks are quick to dish out big bucks on DESKTOP cpus. Sure some socket types are pretty hefty in price but the exact same thing can be said for desktop cpu (retale not ebay or 2nd hand PC-shop) Dont take it personal Michael, This is not aimed at you. You or I or any one else is entitled to their opinion, but someones opinion should not be what dictates such a decision for the masses. Yes I do know that its been this way at bot for years... But that dosnt mean things cant change for the server crowd as it has for other types of HW Just my 2bits :celebration: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.Scott Posted October 7, 2017 Share Posted October 7, 2017 I think the ban on server HW was aimed more at the IT people that had access to the huge core count super computers at work. The rest are just collateral damage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skulstation Posted October 7, 2017 Share Posted October 7, 2017 (edited) I also don't like the not allowed off server rule in comps. But i have acepted it ( stil asking it from time to time ).and stil benching my sr-2 from fun. Not al team's / countrys have some whane thad works in the it bronche whit acces to datacenters and co. I also was working on a server only comp,but i gave up. No response from amd / intel / supermicro.mybe my lack of good englis or wrong contact date ( contact formula on the site ) Only tyan was intrested in such a comp and was ready to think aboud some sponsering for price Edited October 7, 2017 by skulstation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yosarianilives Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 I think the ban on server HW was aimed more at the IT people that had access to the huge core count super computers at work. The rest are just collateral damage. That's kinda what I wondered. I know if I got a 6950x to 5+ Ghz on ln2 for a comp I'd be at the very least a little annoyed to get destroyed by some asshole from systems on 4x 22c xeons in a lga 2011-3 stage. But what about the 18c i9? Are we gonna allow that in comps? I think that if they want to maintain the guise of keeping enterprise out of comps they should do core count caps at like 10 cores so that at worst I have to compete with a $1k cpu not a $2k cpu as I will probably never personally invest in a platform that costs as much as a (cheap) car for benching. And once there's a core count cap there is absolutely no reason not to allow xeons, as they will be beat by unlocked cpus anyways. It was mentioned about binning 16c lga 2011-3 xeons, that would be pointless. You'd be getting a 5% OC instead of a 4% OC or maybe a slightly better IMC. A similar core count i7 or i9 would still destroy it. Now back to the original point of this thread, which had little to do with allowing xeons and opterons carte blanche. Can we please have a comp or stage in a comp that allows 2p and server hw. I know it's rare hw, especially for this community, but it is out there. I know I have an sr-2 that I'd like to compete with someone on. I've also got quad fx on the way if you want a comp with 2-5 participants, as well as skull trail on the way. I think that having a stage, or especially a specific comp, that allows server hw specifically shouldn't piss off too many of the people with binned i9s who would normally cry foul of "enterprise ruining our OC". The only potential issue is that the comp would be worth points for hwbot, and if that's the issue then I see no reason that we couldn't get an unofficial comp together for those of us with server hw who want to push it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators websmile Posted October 9, 2017 Administrators Share Posted October 9, 2017 As said, a stage for server hardware only or with focus on server hardware is no problem for me. We give points for old school hardware, for modern gen, for sponsored guys, for low clocks to even chances and so on. The only problem in fact is mixing it like you said, and that times change is not only at desktop. We have a lot of new challenges ahead at divisions on road to pro with new core count gens, and servers will get more cores as well and so on. I9 is new and 2k now, times change and it is not hwbot that does it, and we all do not want progress to stop, getting 6 cores for price of four before is good. But times change and we have to find new solutions Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yosarianilives Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 I think that if there is eventually going to be a server focused comp or stage of a comp it might be a good idea to do an unofficial comp first. I'd be willing to organize it if other people are interested. Maybe something like an LGA 771 stage, a LGA 1366 stage, and a lowest SLI/CF Time Spy score stage. Those should be 3 platforms that are relatively easy to get into at affordable prices if you just want to be relatively competitive, while still giving anyone with skull trail or an SR-2 a chance to shine. Alternatively a 2p LGA 2011 stage would be good as even those with overclocking boards would have very little advantage over those without. If anyone is interested in getting a "private" comp like this together to show interest let me know and we can decide on some stages. I know there's got to be at least a few guys in systems somewhere with just a little bit too much freedom on use of their production servers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yosarianilives Posted October 10, 2017 Share Posted October 10, 2017 Interesting that this was allowed to be subbed to the rog comp. Of course it's the wrong background so they probably selected the comp after submitting when hwbot asked if they wanted to sub to rog comp. Which of course it shouldn't do if xeons aren't allowed. I'll just chalk this up to a bug, but would be interesting if this means something for e3 xeons. wwwuby`s wPrime - 32m score: 5sec 990ms with a Xeon E3 1241 v3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumper118 Posted October 10, 2017 Author Share Posted October 10, 2017 I 'm confused.But I always thought Computer Hardware is Computer Hardware regardless if it was labeled SERVER or DESKTOP or LAPTOP etc. And that this is THE place for ALL computer HW not just favoring & glorifying the new n shiny desktop stuff. Thats the one thing I could never understand about HWbot on how they can segregate "server" hardware from ALL other computer hardware and think its OK. Referring to being treated equal... Comps as well as general rankings. Saying server components are expensive... For who? Because PLENTY of folks are quick to dish out big bucks on DESKTOP cpus. Sure some socket types are pretty hefty in price but the exact same thing can be said for desktop cpu (retale not ebay or 2nd hand PC-shop)on: This is a very good point. Where does the line of too expensive get drawn with binning $2k cpus with a 1080ti. Glad to see this thread is still going anyway. Got a new board on way for my very fast e5 1650. Going to smoke some 3930k if not all of them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yosarianilives Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 This is a very good point. Where does the line of too expensive get drawn with binning $2k cpus with a 1080ti. Glad to see this thread is still going anyway. Got a new board on way for my very fast e5 1650. Going to smoke some 3930k if not all of them I for one think that HEDT platforms would be a good place to start to draw the line. So basically no e7s as you really do need industry contacts to acquire those. You can't just buy a board off the shelf and run those systems, you have to talk to an OEM and work with them to make a solution for you. I know I was looking into picking up the multiple of 15c GFPs until I realized there are very good reason that nobody is competing for them. The CPUs aren't that expensive, however good luck finding an lga 2011-1 board for under $2k, especially an 8p. Then on top of that board you need a riser board for ram and often a riser board for cpu sockets. Then of course you need it in the right chassis with the right OEM PSU. So end of the day if you buy this non-overclocking platform for benching it's $30k+ if you can even find the system, and you wouldn't buy it for enterprise use because it's better just to buy new and have warranties and service agreements. But any xeon that fits in lga 2011 or lga 2011-3 or even lga 2066 should be reasonably attainable. Not saying that these should necessarily be allowed to compete in your average HEDT comp, but maybe allowing the similar core counts shouldn't hurt? If someone happens to have a 10c 2011-3 locked xeon and wants to try to compete with an unlocked 6950x I see no reason to keep them from doing it. The only place where it gets sticky is like lga 2011 for example where there are unlocked 8c xeons that are very popular and it wouldn't be all that fair to allow them to crush 3960x's unless the comp was geared that way. I can understand how much of a pain it would be to put a core limit on every stage but it might at least help bring that extra 1% into comps who only have xeons. But that's just my $.02 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumper118 Posted October 11, 2017 Author Share Posted October 11, 2017 I agree. No e7 but e5 allowed. Or just 2p systems or limit to 1p systems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yosarianilives Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 I agree. No e7 but e5 allowed. Or just 2p systems or limit to 1p systems. I still think that core limits is a good idea. Because for example on lga 2011 an unlocked 8c xeon will be better than a 3960x and they're not necessarily as available and as cheaply as they are some places. Also some people with binned 18cs might get pissed off if they get beat by a 28c Of course 2p should only be in specific stages, which I'd love to see as my sr-2 and now skull trail and quad fx are chomping at the bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumper118 Posted October 11, 2017 Author Share Posted October 11, 2017 I still think that core limits is a good idea. Because for example on lga 2011 an unlocked 8c xeon will be better than a 3960x and they're not necessarily as available and as cheaply as they are some places. Also some people with binned 18cs might get pissed off if they get beat by a 28c Of course 2p should only be in specific stages, which I'd love to see as my sr-2 and now skull trail and quad fx are chomping at the bit. idk i want to see what those 1680's can do i think a 4960x on ln2 would beat it because it will clock higher cos it has less cores. my 1650 and 3930k will put up a decent fight too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yosarianilives Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 idk i want to see what those 1680's can do i think a 4960x on ln2 would beat it because it will clock higher cos it has less cores. my 1650 and 3930k will put up a decent fight too. I think that any bench a 6950x destroys a 5960x the 1680 would come out on top of the 4960x. I think that the higher core count xeons would be a lot of fun, but it'd need to be a specific stage to help allow the people who happen to live in a country that i7s are cheaper than xeons to enter most other comps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skulstation Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 Whats the point of a server only competition when alowing desktop chips aka 7980xe / 6950x / 5950x and co? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr.paco Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 I'm all for a server only comp if thats what it will be. If there is to be a comp featuring Desktop as well as server hw then thats a different comp. Lets try to get our feet wet first by setting up a server hw only comp, can even have stages for single socket as well as a mix of Dual-socket, Triple-socket, Quad-socket, Octo-socket and my favorite Crazy-socket (anything over 8 cpus ). Stages for older platforms leading up to more recent stuff. I know there are plenty of folks that have their dual-370, dual-462 and even older plus the Sr-2's and newer... well you get the idea theres plenty of server platforms out there that can be represented to get folks involved. This way we can see how many participants are willing to throw in on a server comp. So to get this ball rolling, How many stages of 3D & 2D should there be? What benchmarks? How long should the comp run? 30days, 60days, ??days?. What platforms to feature this go around? I know we can come together n create a great n fun comp for many.... I know not everyone will be happy, but that is something that will never change with any comp. :celebration: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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