Frequency detection bug with old Socket 5 CPUs

[ozzie]

On 9/9/2018 at 8:30 AM, ozzie said:

a suggestion, theres many different countries and native languages in bot teams and  members, some are better with english than others, if they want to type in a different language why cant they do this, type their post, then translate it in english for eg like i just did with aemate translator, keeps everyone happy or am i missing the point.

why the hell cant i get 6 gig from my cpu on air ......(yeah right, lol)

Transliteration

pochemu, chert voz'mi, ya ne mogu poluchit' 6 gigov ot moyego protsessora v efire

thought you'd get a giggle from that ants ?

[Antinomy]

2 hours ago, Mr.Scott said:

For the cartridge processors, pic of the case or the actual processor? 

These are details that can be sorted out later. First is to come to an agreement. The problem is we can't prevent Pentium 200 posted in Pentium 166, same for socket A and so on. At least we could ensure that a result in a rare category was made by someone who actually owns such a hardware. And easier to sort things out later if category was selected wrong (or detected by software wrong) or was split/combined.
ATM I need community's understanding.

[Marquzz]

My score was reported, but I didn't even overclock my P100, it was just to get a sub in a competiion, it's actually clocked at 1.5x66 per default and this is what CPU-Z shows.

But if you like to remove the sub, it's fine, I don't bench anymore and it's not like this score is top anyway lol

http://hwbot.org/submission/2983806_marquzz_cpu_frequency_pentium_100mhz_99_mhz

[Strunkenbold]

On 9/6/2018 at 9:17 PM, Splave said:

Come on man, dont quit we need you. Make your decisions and stand by them. You are the mod not the user

For me it was always important what the community thinks. Hwbot lost a lot of users. For instance my whole team is not active anymore. The feedback I got was mostly around everything is getting too complicated. Ranking, rules, hardware categories. Everything gained too much levels of complexity and in the end its no fun anymore.
Now, while you can't make everyone happy, you also gain nothing if you spend time on an website which has no users anymore. And since its a dance between correctness and happy users you have to listen what the people say. 
The last feedback I got was because of splitting 9800 GT category which I heard made many people upset but none of those said something as they were already too frustrated of the whole situation. Of course I was thinking about if that was worth the trouble, if it was worth the thing to upset people. Back then I believed it was necessary to keep a fair competition alive and was somehow logical as the rest of hardware db had the same scheme to separate categories also by Shader count.

Since you are one of those which were affected Im actually quite surprised by your statement.
While its very important to know for me if the community still in favor of my work, there are also some other points which made me decide to leave.
Most important its my family. I just cant spend so much time anymore for hwbot.
And the other thing is the question how does the development of hwbot evolve. In the moment I see just to many bugs and no indication that something will change. I wait for a response from Frederik and how he visualizes the future of the bot.
And if there is a reasonable plan, count me in again. Even just for some light tasks.

On 9/6/2018 at 8:53 PM, max1024 said:

3 Order.
If you go to the link http://hwbot.org/article/about_us, you can see that the links do not work, the information is outdated. The news is also not updated, but it's half the trouble. The trouble is in the rules, screenshots and much more than that.
Propose 1. State the rules in a new edition. Make a link to them on the main page. 2. Do not use new rules that will affect old results. 3.All questions that in the future will affect the change in the rules to notify everyone of the news on the main page and make a mailing to all users by email and in private messages on the forum. 4.Review all links to downloadable benchmarks (some do not work). 5. Make a list of all the errors in the tests so that any newcomer can see in the example of the same SR-2 what can be done and what is not.

4.Democracy, Help and a way out of the situation.
Democracy should still be, in conditions of dictatorship and the imposition of opinions of individuals on the interpreted rules, in general, nothing good will come of it. More precisely, it did not work out as many overclockers were simply disappointed in this project, but not everything is lost. Everyone can make mistakes from this, no one is immune. Yes, decisions must be made, but it is better to discuss them in advance, notifying everyone of this. To facilitate the task of establishing order in the database, it is possible to call for volunteers from among the recommended users to grant them the right to adjust the results. Only the correction of minor errors without the possibility of removing it? I think that there are people who want to help.

About Order:

Those are very good suggestions. And now thats why I think this will not happen: Over the last years I made the experience that even if you say there is a broken link, there is bug on the website, there are duplicate categories in the db, there is no one who fix your reported stuff. Or it takes months up to years (Im not exaggerating).
On top of that I think this needs some kind of coordination. Someone who assigns tasks like PJ did before he left. But that would usually need someone who works full time for the bot. And I guess the bot raises just enough funds to keep itself running. Its not like the bot could pay someones salary.
That leaves two options.
Either Frederik agrees to work at least one day in the week for the bot just to do the maintenance work, fixing small bugs, makes additions to the db which I cant do, talks to the team makes suggestions to important topics and and and...
Or as this will not happen, theres only the possibility to distribute the work to more people. Which would mean someone is moderating competitions, one or two deal with the reported stuff, one for the hardware db and one who has some control over the website and post news can edit the rules etc.

About Democracy:

I know the bot made many people unhappy because of decisions which discussed somewhere in the forum and where never announced in the news. I guess thats why some people lost the confidence in this website. And I absolutely agree on this.
But I wonder how should democracy work for this website? 
I remember we had polls. I remember the majority was always about to give more points, more benchmarks, equal points for same positions,... But there were very good arguments against. Yet always the greedy faction won.
I think its good to hear different opinions. And the decision should be made on those opinions, but in the end stuff decides. Because they need to run this service.

On 9/7/2018 at 12:42 AM, _mat_ said:

Strunkenbold, the way I see it, it's impossible to keep all categories clean that rely on user input, only screenshots and simply not enough and unsafe data points.

Thats absolutely true.
The question is always to what degree we accept submissions which are flawed. I can accept when the CPU-Z memory tab is missing for a score which is somewhere in the middle of a ranking.
But when I think of those Win10 results, I really begin to ponder what the best approach would be. Either let every submission in the ranking which doesnt look suspicious. But then, arent we de facto allow Win10? Doesn't we punish user who read the rules, especially because Win10 performs better than Win7 in some benchmarks?
Or be strict and remove anything, causing many frustrated users.
And when we dont remove Win10 results we make the people angry who obeyed the rules.
If we would decide to let those Win10 results in the rankings because 90% of them are probably correct, how do we distinguish a tweaked run from a RTC bugged run?
In my opinion, this is the door to meaningless rankings.
Given that Win10 becomes more and more the standard OS in the world I guess that many users must be frustrated. It is a disaster. But everyday more and more of those results come in. And I dont think that the users actually even think of that there could be something wrong with their result. How many do really look in the rules. And even if they do, they see there is someone else having a result with Win10 for two years in the ranking, so it must look like the situation has changed and things are allowed now.
In my opinion users need to get warned, they need to get aware of the situation. But that doesnt happen.
I talked about this problem in our internal forums to no avail.
It is just really frustrating.

On 9/8/2018 at 2:24 PM, ZFeSS said:

It would be better if we discuss it before removal because other fellow members feel better this way. Decision was made and I can understand it even if I don't like it.

Anyway bug existed, fixed and we can move on. I think it's good news.

This was a common thing I heard from some people. First announce changes and then, let people discuss.
I must admit, I really underestimated that the removal of those results would cause such a misunderstanding.
I really thought that things would be clear. Instead I think many people are confused. But probably discussion is needed to help people understand the issue.
So I think it should be a common thing to announce every change in the news section of the website. Its just too bad that we lost our news writer and no one from the team has access to the news section of the website. The only exception is Frederik but since he variously visits the forums, the time when such an article could be published could range from one day to several months. And thats just way too unreliable.

However its not only hard to publish those announcements its also hard to actually write such an article. Sometimes it is just simply hard to explain the decision itself. But given that the result in this particular case wouldnt be any different, I went ahead wrote a small article trying explaining the problem and removed the scores. So maybe this was a tiny bit too hasty.

But my feeling from the discussion was that many people didnt really tried to understand the problem. Instead they tried to convince me that their result wasnt affected by the bug or tried to express how evil the bot has become. Which doesnt matter at all in this case.
So in my opinion those discussions will always end up the same. Its just about "please dont remove my points". And probably all good suggestions end up with much more work for the mods.
And thats the reason I say we can do this, we can announce decisions and give time to talk but people should understand that for the most cases the decision was already made for good reasons.

 

Id like to thank you all for your kind words. 

[Guest]

Old saying ... you cant please all the people all the time.

Staff of HWbot & moderation are the decision makers, not members. So you have final say ... 

You are needed here & respected. Asset lost ❌ if walking away 

 

 

[ozzie]

dont forget strunk, if there was no mods there would be no bot, you guys do a hard job, he wants this ,he wants that, if everyone stuck to the rules made and didnt try to fudge things . all would be fine wouldnt it, so dont pull out coz of some dickheads, if you find them fudging, just ban em, simple, the only way to keep real is be real, 1 rule for all, obey, or suffer the consequences from it   

Edited September 11, 2018 by ozzie

[Strunkenbold]

On 9/10/2018 at 5:19 AM, Antinomy said:

These are details that can be sorted out later. First is to come to an agreement. The problem is we can't prevent Pentium 200 posted in Pentium 166, same for socket A and so on. At least we could ensure that a result in a rare category was made by someone who actually owns such a hardware. And easier to sort things out later if category was selected wrong (or detected by software wrong) or was split/combined.
ATM I need community's understanding.

A rule of this years old school competition was to show the CPU with the used motherboard because there are lot of CPU pictures in the internet. So those pictures become a little bit more unique.
Slot A CPUs also have a sticker on the backside of the PCB. Even though I currently dont remember if its about the core or the model name or both.

[Strunkenbold]

18 minutes ago, ozzie said:

dont forget strunk, if there was no mods there would be no bot, you guys do a hard job, he wants this ,he wants that, if everyone stuck to the rules made and didnt try to fudge things . all would be fine wouldnt it, so dont pull out coz of some dickheads, if you find them fudging, just ban em, simple, the only way to keep real is be real, 1 rule for all, obey, or suffer the consequences from it   

Its not that easy. We cant start to ban people because they have a different opinion.

But in my opinion the reason why many people are unhappy is because the website didnt received the work which is actually needed to provide a satisfying experience. And I dont see that this changes. Instead the bot is producing unhappy users everyday.
 

[ozzie]

yes i remember this last year, a couple of members had a head to head of what was what, and the end result was ?? nothing, my choice would be a full disclosure, stickers, models, model numbers, BUT doesnt mean they cant, or wont take a sticker off and put it on another of something very similar does it, but, then have the mods running around trying to find out if its legit or not

[Fasttrack]

It is sir, so unfortunate, so sad and so disappointing to observe ( not only here but in every small, medium or big organization ), that the true gentlemen and "heroes" that constitute

the backbone of the said organization, to be "forced" to leave because the "organization" is "NOT PRODUCING HAPPY USERS"

I personally would like to wish the best, both to you and HWBOT.

It is a real shame, because HWBOT is, maybe, the only site on the Internet where so much info can be found regarding computer HW, going decades back.

It is a huge resource of info, and if examined under this prism, it should remain alive, even as a database for future reference. 

[ozzie]

5 minutes ago, Strunkenbold said:

Its not that easy. We cant start to ban people because they have a different opinion.

But in my opinion the reason why many people are unhappy is because the website didnt received the work which is actually needed to provide a satisfying experience. And I dont see that this changes. Instead the bot is producing unhappy users everyday.
 

in some cases yes, i havent been happy as others havent been either with website issues, its a constant thing there that has to be kept on to keep it on top, but overall with the thousands of subs per day, week or whatever it does a damn good job, so does the mod staff in keeping it that way,

and i see it the other way around, bot staff doesnt really create unhappy users, i see it as the users create an unhappy bot experience mostly by not doing the right thing, sure bot has issues, but its listened to users and cleaned up its own back yard

theres a saying

dont shit in someones elses back yard unless yours is clean first  

[Guest]

10 hours ago, Strunkenbold said:

Its not that easy. We cant start to ban people because they have a different opinion.

But in my opinion the reason why many people are unhappy is because the website didnt received the work which is actually needed to provide a satisfying experience. And I dont see that this changes. Instead the bot is producing unhappy users everyday.
 

If the sooky la la's have left then good riddance to them. Die hard overclockers remain

Feeling more complaints lately? How many members stay silent? A much bigger portion 99.9%

244805 Hwbot members, so still fine there

Rev7 was a surprise for us all & we had to get used to it

[Fasttrack]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

A very interesting statistic number would be to have the true active users of the last 12 months.

And by saying active, I mean at least 1 submission per month.

244805 is a number that indicates the total registered users since HWBOT started. This number says nothing.

Let's have the true users of 2014-2015-2016-2017 and 2018 so far.

That would be a more rational approach to how many are really still interested in this hobby.

[yosarianilives]

5 minutes ago, Fasttrack said:

And by saying active, I mean at least 1 submission per month.

That may be too often. Sometimes I sub every weekend for several months, but sometimes I also go several months without subbing because I'm binning or I just test many things and nothing really works out correctly. You'd need a combination of forum and submissions if you wanted to see who was truly active empirically.

[Leeghoofd]

Even it is just 10 people I would still be doing this...  Numbers are  for engineers, mathematicians,...

 

Edited September 11, 2018 by Leeghoofd

[Fasttrack]

Agreed. Let's say 10 submissions per year.

Alby, maybe you do not like numbers, but unfortunately only numbers can and will present the true picture and not a virtual reality.

Everyone admires to the utmost extent the voluntary work of the remaining crew. Huge Bravo to all the gentlemen that still contribute to the operations of the site.

But still, since this a pretty much expensive hobby, it would be nice to know ( if possible and if allowed ), how many active users still exist.

The average Joe might have the right to know if he is competing "against" 100 or 10.000 users.

Running the marathon and coming first when there is no second running, is pretty much not the best indication of interest or competitive skills.  

[Fasttrack]

13 minutes ago, yosarianilives said:

That may be too often. Sometimes I sub every weekend for several months, but sometimes I also go several months without subbing because I'm binning or I just test many things and nothing really works out correctly. You'd need a combination of forum and submissions if you wanted to see who was truly active empirically.

 

12 minutes ago, Leeghoofd said:

Even it is just 10 people I would still be doing this...  Numerbs are  for engineers, mathematicians,...

 

 

[Mr.Scott]

Miss you George.

[Fasttrack]

2 minutes ago, Mr.Scott said:

Miss you George.

Miss you too my best friend - mentor and TEAM CAPTAIN for ever

W9 and Scotty. Best combination ever. My best years here at HWBOT.

THANK YOU !

[Leeghoofd]

That's the fun part , you don't always compete against active members... some scores can easily be beaten due to a better subplatform.. others require more skill and optimizing settings, OS, wazza,... It is all fun... which is something many forget. A few made it into the big league, 99.5% will just have fun and achieve eternal fame on the internet...

Hwbot is a database, remaining a good reference for all OCers and tweakers... that is what it always should be....

Let me restart Rookie rumble with XTU submissions, that means 400 subs per month easily, does that figure mean anything? Maybe in a chart yes, in reality most of them only do a few runs with their cpu (maybe even just as a stress test only :p) Hence why I said numbers don't mean anything...

[Guest]

Less complaining more overclocking ? The bot has plenty of new members joining so it's still strong

I agree George ... you said in bold true active users of the last 12 months. That would be interesting, say 10 subs in that year

[macsbeach98]

6 hours ago, Fasttrack said:

Miss you too my best friend - mentor and TEAM CAPTAIN for ever

W9 and Scotty. Best combination ever. My best years here at HWBOT.

THANK YOU !

There is nothing stopping you from coming back George

[max1024]

I took two days (do not look at the language barrier, it exists I know it, although not all recognize this) to understand everything and I can say that I completely agree with everything written above Strunkenbold.

This topic can be  discuss endlessly, but it is need to Do something. I do not know who now runs HWBOT, but I would like it to be independent people who are not in any teams. Either they are, but do not have any complaints from all users. It would be good to strengthen cultural discipline as well, open off against insults within this forum and start by bringing the rules for tests into order.

This problem about the error in CPU-Z showed that it’s do not have to hurry to press the "Delete" button. For very old processors with a free multiplier, CPU-Z will never determine what kind of model it is, the multiplier can also be erroneous, but often (though not always) the final clock frequency is displayed correctly. The degree of trust is also important, I do not think that most users want to deceive others, in the first place they deceive themselves. To start moving forward I propose to create a separate page on the forum and there to discuss problematic issues.

Here is my example. Video cards that do not support 16-bit color get points in 3DMark2001 SE. Look for an example on Voodoo3 3000 AGP. My suggestion is to make an exception for this test for this test, since it is not physically possible to pass the test in 32-bit color, but leave the rest of the rules unchanged.

[Guest]

Good writing max1024  Yes trust. We should believe 100% members try to do the right thing first.

[GRIFF]

Fortunately we do not have the money or middle interests, only the passion. So many problems, weaknesses, bugs, and other problems of various kinds we can solve by combining our experiences. In my opinion, the moderators would still formalize our discussions with changes, limitations or additions to the rules. We are an infinite database, even if sometimes we do not realize it.