Massman Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 Did you ever wonder if part of the problem was competing against the people who had such easy access to A/the hardware early...and had an understanding of it before anyone else and B/in volume, so they could bin for free Yes, I did. All the others didn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaPaKaH Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 Because people bitched and whined about the ES being oh-so WR-capable that it was unfair competing against them.isn't the situation same for Expander and Untouchables ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massman Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 Sure, but we actually have an existing rule on that. Besides, technically ES is not retail. So, according to the nda ruling, it's correct not issuing points for them in the regular league. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaPaKaH Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 The only rule I heard was "current-gen ES = Pro". ES? I doubt people with Untouchables, at least, are using the retail version ... because there just isn't any. Current-gen? IIRC, Expander is usable on X79 and there's no newer version of either Expander or Untouchables. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massman Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 X79 doesn't need Xpander. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaPaKaH Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 Then there's no argument that Expander is old-gen and therefore is not a Pro League attribute anymore. But what about the Untouchables ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massman Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 The NDA ruling states that people can post results for points if the vendor has lifted NDA. In this case, Evga does not say the Untouchables are under NDA, so people can post results with it and get points. The question then is: is having this piece of hardware enough to be force-moved to Pro? Since there is no forced-move ruling with regards to particular hardware items, the answer clearly is no. So, under current rules, using the Untouchables is allowed for points and in the regular league. We have specifically chosen not to "retail availability" as a criterion for points or league. Why? Because it's a very complicated matter and comes with many, many loopholes. Inserting a criterion that defines "retail" and have ruling based on that definition will lead to more problems than not having the ruling at all. Just an example: - Intel Pentium E6500K: released only in China. - Geforce GTX560 Ti 448: not released in Benelux - Certain countries have no access to certain brands ('cause no distribution): for instance the Zotac/Galaxy extreme OC cards are not available in EU. - Asus Mars: limited edition product - Bulldozer FX8150: still no chips in Belgium These are just the first examples that come to mind. The list is a lot longer, but I think you can see where this is going right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knopflerbruce Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 EVBot shouldn't be a part of the discussion, i've seen them on the EVGA site, with a pricetag of $100 bucks (or what it was). Xpander... well, what do you get? 4-way support? You can get 4-way support by using non-ASUS boards. It's not a feature unique to the xpander. Untouchable could be different, but I didn't know other people than Ilya and Vince used those, and they're in the pro league AFAIK. Plus, Ilya designed the thing - he should be allowed to use it. It's "his" product. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massman Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 Btw, nothing stops TiN from making a new Untouchable version and selling/giving them to his friends only. That would pretty much be the same like K404 modifying his teammates' cards because the teammate can't do it himself. (and I don't think there's something wrong with that) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christian Ney Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 Chiller is using the Untouchable Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gamer Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 Chiller in the Pro league ? WTF! Can I report his score now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K404 Posted January 7, 2012 Author Share Posted January 7, 2012 "The NDA ruling states that people can post results for points if the vendor has lifted NDA" Where is this stated? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massman Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 http://hwbot.org/news/1166_unreleased_technology_not_applicable_for_hwboints http://hwbot.org/news/1656_clarification_regarding_unreleased_technology_and_hwboints Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0skill Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 (edited) i think overclocking is a kind of electronic science starting with moding your VGA cards or mainboards up to building your own OC tools if you have enough engineering skills for that befor tin was starting to work for evga he has designed his own untouchable if you have enough skill to built your own tools i don`t think that you want to get punished for your skills untouchable is a kind of moding hardware not an ES hardware same as you lend someone a VR that he can Vmod his hardware and i don't think that this will be a kind of hardware sharing sorry for my bad english Edited January 7, 2012 by 0skill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K404 Posted January 7, 2012 Author Share Posted January 7, 2012 Please can the rules be in the rules section, not two-year-old news posts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbuass Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 Evga Evbot sells retail, but I looked for a expander lots of times....and was a legend to me... I understand hwbot need rules, and understand is almost impossible to be fair with all.... But sometimes we can see guys posting results (for exemple) with a HD 7970 out of the pro league... So ... the question is... How can this guys get a not launched VGA if they have no " some way of support " and this guys was not in pro league... In my case, I asked to move to Overclockers League, cause was possible to get # 1 , before HD 7970 braked my scores... and few days ago I did have many more points... but I asked and be denied to change to Overclockers League.... because I work to a vendor ( Corsair)... The questin is... I work for a vendor only since november (99% my points was out Corsair)... and Vgas, cpus, motherboards is the most needed to the 2d and 3d scores... So.... I bought all cpus, motherboards and vgas....further spent tons of money with ln2.... Who haves more support....who is more pro league? The guys that haves lots of cpus....or can catch videocards before to be launched... or I? I do not disagree to be in Pro League cause is a "pre rule" but I think hwbot have to check and I am sure will find many more than 60 pros... One size for all... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crew Sweet Posted January 7, 2012 Crew Share Posted January 7, 2012 (edited) I think there is some truth to the engineering samples in general, in the presentation of the bulldozers in Baires the microprocessors were "chosen" by AMD for high cpu clocks. In general, engineering samples of Intel cpu is not good, here we say "like a shoe" or something else The expanders in Latin America are known in photos only, like many others stuff btw I do not understand is how many guy are already using 7970 and still nobody has to sell, AMD Argentina, does not even have an engineering sample or reference still This is the real problem, for reviews this samples (grafic cards reference) provided are not yet on sale have been used for benchmarks on hwbot, and many people today can not compete with that. I wonder, at this delicate problem these benchmarks should not be without a score? and on the other hand, these guys who have access to what few have should not be in the Pro League?, this is not the object of this league ? Just a thought, only, if Intel provides me an Ivy bridge, I can upload the benchmarks here, without changing the league ? i dont think so. NDA and support of a company:rolleyes: IMHO all the guys who have used the 7970 contacts obtained by the arrangements with the company or staff for being part of important forums, all should be in the Pro League Edited January 7, 2012 by Sweet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hokiealumnus Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 (edited) From just one perspective, I've spoken (in private) about my reservation of being in the Pro league. It's my lot because I bench with ES chips and GPUs and want to help my team by submitting for points. I was, let's say gently admonished (and rightly so), for slight complaint about being in the same league as people I assumed got to bin CPUs and GPUs for free when I only get one as a reviewer (and have no money to bin more). These phantom people that many - including formerly myself - believe get all of those chips/GPUs to bin, worldwide, are probably less than a dozen. The rest of them churn through chips at negligible loss by reselling them as practically new. Or they know someone that's a system builder that will let them bin their chip to buy. Even they are very few. Anyway, I gave up the OC league because I wanted to help my team by being able to submit what benchmarks I could get with ES hardware. That's why the Pro league exists (among other reasons). If you take away the ability to submit for boints, there is no reason for me to submit to the bot at all. Also FWIW, this GPU launch is an exception. AMD paper-launched it, so the review samples are out there and not under NDA - free to submit before launch. 99% of the time (HD69xx, Bulldozer, SNB, SNB-E), the hardware we get is under NDA until the day it is launched. Meaning we aren't supposed to (I never do, but there are those that do) submit anything in public until after the product is launched. The lag time between when I submit my first result to the bot and others submitting is often less than 48hrs to a week, depending on many factors. So this particular launch is an exception and not the rule. EDIT - "The NDA ruling states that people can post results for points if the vendor has lifted NDA" Where is this stated? http://hwbot.org/news/1166_unreleased_technology_not_applicable_for_hwbointshttp://hwbot.org/news/1656_clarification_regarding_unreleased_technology_and_hwboints *cough* http://hwbot.org/forum/showthread.php?t=34852 *cough* ....sooner in 2012 than later maybe? Edited January 7, 2012 by hokiealumnus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crew Sweet Posted January 7, 2012 Crew Share Posted January 7, 2012 (edited) From just one perspective, I've spoken (in private) about my reservation of being in the Pro league. It's my lot because I bench with ES chips and GPUs and want to help my team by submitting for points. I was, let's say gently admonished (and rightly so), for slight complaint about being in the same league as people I assumed got to bin CPUs and GPUs for free when I only get one as a reviewer (and have no money to bin more). These phantom people that many - including formerly myself - believe get all of those chips/GPUs to bin, worldwide, are probably less than a dozen. The rest of them churn through chips at negligible loss by reselling them as practically new. Or they know someone that's a system builder that will let them bin their chip to buy. Even they are very few. Anyway, I gave up the OC league because I wanted to help my team by being able to submit what benchmarks I could get with ES hardware. That's why the Pro league exists (among other reasons). If you take away the ability to submit for boints, there is no reason for me to submit to the bot at all. Also FWIW, this GPU launch is an exception. AMD paper-launched it, so the review samples are out there and not under NDA - free to submit before launch. 99% of the time (HD69xx, Bulldozer, SNB, SNB-E), the hardware we get is under NDA until the day it is launched. Meaning we aren't supposed to (I never do, but there are those that do) submit anything in public until after the product is launched. The lag time between when I submit my first result to the bot and others submitting is often less than 48hrs to a week, depending on many factors. So this particular launch is an exception and not the rule. Hi hokiealumnus The truth, I do not speak of only one person, there were many advantages and benefits obtained agreements with the companies (or important forums) and this is reflected in anxiety, this have been uploaded many times out of time(before sell or NDA or something else) in hwbot. You understand my point of view, surely Edit: I buy all my hardware, my last add Gtx 580 lightning (nacho_arroyo sell me this), all who receive benefits for having very good contacts with manufacturers anywhere in the world (or reviewvers -like new and ultimate hardware- of important forums) should be in the Pro League, no doubt this is just my way of thinking Edited January 7, 2012 by Sweet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hokiealumnus Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 I'm not at all opposed to the suggestion that people who get pre-release hardware from Intel or AMD should be Pro. That's why I'm in Pro in the first place. I'm the first to admit I can't hang with Andre, NickShih, rbuass, Deanzo....any of those top guys. But it's my lot on the bot to compete in their league because of the fortunate position in which I find myself. My point is don't take the points away. We paid our dues by going Pro. If the NDA is lifted, we should be able to submit for points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knopflerbruce Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 Maybe there are review samples around, but they don't have to be engineering samples. It's not like retail cards are only made the night before they're supposed to be available for sale. Just saying:) I don't think receiving a review sample is the same as company support either, a review sample can't be modded and messed around with - it has to be passed on in good working condition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hokiealumnus Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 (edited) Well, to be fair, many review samples are for the site to keep (very handy for future comparisons and/or changing testbed platforms). For a lot of companies, anything other than mobile (i.e. laptops) are actually. Some are required to be returned but most aren't. I probably have one of the world's fastest review writing and browsing computers, heh. I can't - well, won't - sell the stuff (ES) and don't really game. Once it's benched for the review, it's tortured as much as I can. Either I kill it benching, use it in a 24/7 build or store it for said future comparisons. Edited January 7, 2012 by hokiealumnus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massman Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 The problem is that WE can't enforce the rule that "free sample" = pro league. We simply can't track down who got hardware for free. Also, I honestly don't think forcing anyone who gets one free piece of hardware to play with should be moved to Pro. It'll bring along a witchhunt similar to what we saw with the Hardware Sharing, with people claiming others had the HW for free and those who are being accused saying they didn't. There's also a bunch of loopholes to cover: - What to do with events? - What if you are helping out on a public event and can just use the hardware for a week? - What if you just happen to be able to test the newest hardware when a system builder wants to find out how the new tech works? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crew Sweet Posted January 7, 2012 Crew Share Posted January 7, 2012 (edited) Maybe there are review samples around, but they don't have to be engineering samples. It's not like retail cards are only made the night before they're supposed to be available for sale. Just saying:) I don't think receiving a review sample is the same as company support either, a review sample can't be modded and messed around with - it has to be passed on in good working condition. Yep you are right, but see this for example: OC league 22-12-2011 http://hwbot.org/submission/2236229_poparamiro_3dmark03_radeon_hd_7970_153605_marks 30-12-2011 http://hwbot.org/submission/2233505_majkel84_3dmark03_radeon_hd_7970_114690_marks these two boys have not made significant changes to the graphics, only overclock (not very high), and surely these graphs go to other forums or people linked to the manufacturers. who had the opportunity to have one 7970 in the last month of 2011 ? This guys are not in Pro league, both should be, of course or should not get points for these benchmarks, of last Edit for Massman San: - What to do with events?- What if you are helping out on a public event and can just use the hardware for a week? - What if you just happen to be able to test the newest hardware when a system builder wants to find out how the new tech works? 1-wait since grafic card (cpu) is for sale an then upload his benchmarks. 2-Idem wait 3- perform the review and publish it in the / most important forums, that's what manufacturers want, extensive product difisuión anddddd wait for upload in HWBot. Well tis is only my way of tinking, as HWBot is worldwide, many of us from distant countries we almost depressed when these things happen, it's an undeniable sporting advantage. Edited January 7, 2012 by Sweet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hokiealumnus Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 Very good points - implementation would be near impossible. I think volunteer-to-pro is the only way to go. I'm pretty high profile, so it's easy to determine who I am, but hunting out every person that gets something free is near impossible, I agree with that too. I said not opposed to the idea that people who get pre-release hardware from AMD/Intel should be pro...not that they need to be hunted and forced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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