I.M.O.G. Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 (edited) Skill is a terrible term to describe what it takes to compete here. Some people use skill to describe only competing by maximizing frequencies, others use it to describe familiarity with a benchmark, still others use it to describe those who can perform their own hardware modifications - "skill" is a terrible term because each person determines for themselves what they truly consider skill, while they don't agree with what other people call "skill". "Skill" on hwbot has always been about familiarity with the benchmarks, familiarity with the hardware, and special tweaks that maximize scores. There isn't a whole lot of skill in Overclocking itself, its just practice with and understanding of the hardware. I've gotten some pretty mean scores, but it isn't skill, my teammates have helped me a lot, and I've bumbled around the settings long enough to get the best out of what hardware I have. I think the term "skill" should be used less often. I saw one Xpander once, in Hiwa's hands Why not update the rules to only permit hardware that Christian owns? It leaves plenty of hardware to select from, and he could verify that its actually available for regular purchase. Edited January 8, 2012 by I.M.O.G. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbuass Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 (edited) Mafio...I don't think is "bitching" to can give each opinion, then please let keep level of discussion... This thread have are more than one reason...and more than one point of view... Officially 7970 will be lauched at january 9. Not Greece or any country decided it....AMD decided... Any other way to "get" the cards, I think, only must be agree to Pro League. I do not consider me at Pro League cause I "always" have only 1 CPU bought from me (binned or not...to me with MY OWN money) and sometimes one from Fabi (my wife - that's no more overclocking to get points for a moment)...and is the same to our videocards...and acording the rules VGA and CPUs is the most important to 2D and 3D benchs. I only work to a vendor about 2 months and I always be a hardware seller in my country to can make money to buy my own hardware. To me, is not important about especially about HD 7970... but not lauched hardware to hwboints, in the future, and main who is and who is not to be forced to join Pro League must be thinking to the future. In the Pro League... I think, I will never have chance to compete with Nick, Andre (regarding they are REALLY top overclockers) Guys like Nick and Andre really deserve many more than some "top dogs" that get lots of points cause haves lots of hardware, and compete single VGA with nice normal results...but got boints and more boints with SLI, 3Way, 4 Way ... but don't have AMAZING results in single...buts lots of points with multi GPU as you can check), etc...in despite of to be the luckiest person in the world and get the gold chips by lucky. We all noticed the ranking is real...but it don't show REAL top overclockers like Elmor, Hipro, Matose, Stummer, etc in Top 3 or top 5 (regardless Shamino Master)... I understand...and this guys just showed their skill ans they don't need to prove nothing to nobody. Ok... keep this way for now...but think about it to next lauched hardware...and think about to give points to single, sli, 3way, 4way (that to me is not equal for all)... and sure...just a lit bit help to AMD CPU overclocking to encourage the guys and agree to separate at least CPU Intel and CPU AMD to Global points (that I am sure will help to find people working with AMD)... P.S. about USD 1200 when 7970 arrive in Brazil... lol P.S. 2 ... hi friend...you need to understand that sometimes is hard to "non english" to find the correct word to explain what want to tell... so... skill can be knowledge .... effort to find and know the settings ... how to do ... etc Edited January 8, 2012 by rbuass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K404 Posted January 8, 2012 Author Share Posted January 8, 2012 Kenny do you need an eVBot? It available in Germany for sale 60€ I would only need it if I decide the Untouchables is worth using.... and none of the guys getting pre-release samples are showing its benefits properly. No offence to them, but it's true. I'm waiting for "MHz before" and "MHz after." I want to see the BENEFIT of doing all that irreversible work to a cherry GPU Yes, a cherry GPU. Who spends £150 modding an average £30 card, when binning a few more will get you the same MHz in a neat, single, unhacked PCB? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mafio Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 (edited) you guys are not giving an opinion, you are asking hwbot staff to change ANOTHER TIME the rules because from your point of view they are not fair. do you overclock for fun or do you overclock for the points ? if you are doing it for the points, sorry, but you better to quit this hobby cause you will never be able to compete against vendor's people like andre, hicookie and the others. if you are here to have fun stop talking about points and just think about benching. 7970 cost to much, easy, don't buy it. you don't need the latest hardware stuff to have fun, you are not forced to buy a 1200 USD graphics card if you don't want. you are here saying that in your country 7970 will be 1200 USD, so, what we should do ? move everyone that will be able to get the card paying less than 1200 USD in the pro league ? there always be someone that will have things before others or at lower price... AMD is really a lot of fun to be benched, if people are fucktard and prefer to bin a 300 USD retarded CPU like the 2600K it's not a problem of hwbot. hwbot can't change people, if they prefer fucktard stuff like SB instead of play with a 7+ GHZ AM3+ chip (that required alot more tweaking and skill to run at -190 than a SB at H20) none can change their mind. Edited January 8, 2012 by Mafio Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knopflerbruce Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 I don't think separation by brand is such a good idea. Then we have to separate nvidia and amd for GPUs as well. And then some people will want us to separate different sockets from newer ones, and then........... we end up with what we call Hardware Points:D I don't know exactly how the "employed bu manufacturer" rule works, but one way could be to put everyone hired by a company making computer parts in the pro league, without taking the "relevance" of the components into account. Or we could just go by the very basic components, such as mobo, memory, CPU and GPU manufacturers. We have to draw the line somewhere, we can't judge all cases individually - that will take alot of time an resources + it won't be fair at all, we're humans after all - we make mistakes:D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xtreme Addict Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 Referring to topic title: Evbot is/was retail, I have even invoice for it, bought it in Poland. Epower WILL BE RELEASED SOON and for sure it will be available in EVGA store in US, hope it will be also available in EU, cause I love my ES and want to buy more of it Asus Xpander - retail availability was a joke, I agree, I was looking for it in Poland and couldn't find it, asked Asus Poland to organise samples - they ordered and gave me 2x pieces (one is dead by now), but we can be happy that those times are over. Now AM3+ and X79 supports 4-Way without this crap (which was really hard for benching). And my 2 cents to the whole idea of this conversation: REMOVE POINTS in HWBOT and it will CURE all the hostile atmosphere in OC community! Once overclocking was an art - now it's the race. Of course there are some positive sides of points - more and more overclockers try to do their best, cause they want to be better than others (points), manufactures think about OC and their products which are dedicated seem to be much better but the pure idea of OC is now dead. OC became a marketing game. More and more people overclock hardware which they don't want even to see and power on like spermons single core, only for points in wprime etc.. now you also have to spent more cash for OC than ever. Stop it by removing all points or leave it. For overclockers who can't stand they are not able to compete with the best because of $ or bad samples - leave OC scene or simply shut up and do your best. I still overclock hardware which I like, I try challenges (like 4-Way @ LN2) because I like it, but I don't really care about points. I have never run Heaven for points - why? cause I think it's one of the most crappy benchmarks (the winner is PCMARK) but I try to overclock serious staff for serious frequencies and strong scores. So now I am 3th in Poland and I am the only one who played with 4-Way on LN2, 4x 6970 @ LN2, I am one man army for 5 to 6 pots (4x GPU, 1x CPU and 1x NB) and I am 3th. The first overclockers in Poland is now Khalam who has never seen LN2 in reality. Love 2600K architecture yeah. Am I complaining? - maybe it's a bit frustrating but I don't care about points, for me OC is an art and entertainment! TO HWBOT: Leave things like they are now or remove all points in all categories. In my opinion you are not OC GODS to decide for the whole community. Everyone has the same right to publish scores after the launchday - if not, more and more people will go to PRO League and then PRO League will become not PRO League or just the only NORMAL league where we can put results from all categories, ES, new hardware and so on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massman Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 OC Gods? So, wait, people ask us to change rules so it would improve (?) the League at HWBOT and thinking about it is not okay? This thread made me SIGH ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbuass Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 (edited) Ok...let's try to explain Lets go back one month ago. Who was the 1st and 2nd in the world. 1st Nickshih 2nd Smoke Ok... Let's see the benchmarks single (GPU bound) 3Dmark 11 3DMark Vantage (consider Smoke used 2 Xeons or 3960X....check VGA clocks) Unigine Heaven DX11 3Dmark 03 At least you can tell and us know if will not be more fair and more competitive if only have hwboints one time (once) per benchmark. Now...let's check one thing in 4 way ... you can look for VGA clocks, sometimes in the air, getting global points to be in top 10. I DO NOT TALKING that Smoke is not a very good overclocker, but only trying to show how unfair is need to compete same level with only single...and few times 2 VGAs P.S. once one time in my life I benched 4 cards...and was really amazing... but many more expensive than I can pay. P.S. 2 Smoke is only one exemple I take to try to explain with my awful english....somethings that I think can be thought. P.S. 3 - OK Mafio... you are right... lets fall down AMD CPUs and turn Intel the only monopoly...and never more will see new Amd CPU benching in this home Edited January 8, 2012 by rbuass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crew Sweet Posted January 8, 2012 Crew Share Posted January 8, 2012 (edited) OC Gods? So, wait, people ask us to change rules so it would improve (?) the League at HWBOT and thinking about it is not okay? This thread made me SIGH ... This thread, like other high-level teaching and sharing, Different Ways of thinking, I like to think that great overclockers sharing your opinions, and do not always think like me, as You Can See. well i'm not great overclocker Dont sigh, express an opinion is not a revolution is a evolution, not wanting to change the world. I do not think the different leagues in hwbot are wrong, nothing can be perfect, but is fairly level, I found in This thread something amazing, 'cos they are the best ( you Pieter dont hahahaha) and Will Also find new ideas (like your idea) That Can Enhance competition, In This guys i believe, and try to understand. Note XXXXX: and also I learn, btw Edited January 8, 2012 by Sweet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knopflerbruce Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 Well, you can always use the same argument for each GPU. You got one killer setup => points in a bunch of 3D benchmarks. Benching 1x and 4x GPU are two very different things. I'd say running 05 and 06 using the same GTX580 is more of the same thing than using one or more of the same GPU. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mafio Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 it's unfair that someone could buy 4 ferrari when i can only buy one... we must do a rule stating that none could have something better than what i have... sorry but in the last months i benched only AMD cause i hate SB and SB-E crap. i spent the past 2 days clocking at LN2 a bulldozer CPU, 2 days of work plus another bunch of hours of pretesting and i get something like 5 points. but i'm not here bitching (yes, you guys are doing anything but bitching and moaning) because a huge load of noobs with an air cooled 2600k and a DU OS are getting way more points than what i get for my 2 days with the CPU at -190°. this is because i bench for fun, i really don't give a crap about points. i have to agree with Xtreme Addict, points are killing overclocking...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massman Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 @ Sweet: The sigh is not really because people have different opinions and they want to share them. I like when people share their view and point out ways to improve this site or overclocking in general. For example, I.M.O.G recently started a thread regarding the OC Challenges and his creative ideas lead to different styles of competition. The sigh is mostly because we just keep coming back to the same discussion topics. Also, we also keep having the same type of non-discussion where two people come with arguments from their side, clearly highlighting an existing issue, but none of them can provide a viable solution. For me, that's the most frustrating part about this type of discussion: a certain problem is identified, but either there is no solution suggested, or the suggested solution is so complicated it's too difficult to actually implement practically, or a general "it all sucks" follows. And, in my opinion, a lot of the problems that were brought up here just come naturally with the world we live in: - internet: anonymous; can't really verify environment - software: hackable; pretty hard to find software that can't be hacked - hardware: market-driven; certain companies just don't sell hardware in certain regions in certain time periods - marketing: exposure; marketing has been part of overclocking since long before hwbot. - technical sport: silicon; whether you like it or not, the benchmark score is the result of the hardware. You can try as hard as you want, you won't beat a 1000MHz GTX580 with a GF2. - firmware: hardware needs firmware to run properly; not all firmware is safe enough to be available to the public and companies don't them to leak. - opinions: we all know what that brings with it ... and so on. The boundaries of the overclocking world is not defined by you, me, hwbot or any other individual. It's defined by things like the limitations of the internet as communication medium, or market-driven companies that need their investment to result in profit, by the technical limitations of the products we use and bench. Now, add these uncontrollable variables to the different opinions we all have and you'll realize it's not (as) easy (as some people pretend it is). So, when I sigh, it's because I know how this kind of discussion starts, because I know what type of different opinions will be posted, because I know all these opinions make sense in their own way and because I know pretty much all of them just come with the game. So, you could fix a reported problem like someone suggests, but that 'solution' will bring even more problems than we had before. For example: "hardware X is for pro" leads to "more people in pro", which leads to "pro is not really pro, but more like average". Or, as someone already pointed out: "higher points for AMD cpus" will lead to "higher points for Nvidia vgas" which will lead to "more points for my prefered brand", which eventually leads to no relative change (everything is still "worth" the same compared to the other). Or another one: "don't award global points to shity records like 3xGPU 3Dmark01" leads to "I pushed for this record and all I got was this lousy 2p", which leads to "hwbot does not recognise a good score" ... We just keep going 'round and round again. Never a solution, always a reason to bitch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbuass Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 Well, you can always use the same argument for each GPU. You got one killer setup => points in a bunch of 3D benchmarks. Benching 1x and 4x GPU are two very different things. I'd say running 05 and 06 using the same GTX580 is more of the same thing than using one or more of the same GPU. "Benching 1x and 4x GPU are two very different things." But benching SAME benchmark is only one thing.... If you got points to Vantage (exemple)....you just got your Vantage points.... This will turn more equal chances to all (this I AM SURE).... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnidaol Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 (edited) If you don't think that should change the way boints are given at all, maybe you should consider giving some visibility to some hardware rankings. Like showing at front page the single vga overall ranking, single cpu, cpu amd... Not necessarily a new league or a different one, but to have these important rankings with the deserved value. Like who is the VGA king? Who is the AMD king? Who is the whatever king? You don't need to change everything, just give the right visibility to some rankings that are already calculated by hwbot but you need to filter to get it. I don't know, just brainstorming... I've read the discussion and everything seems to be already told. But seems that something should be changed... we just need how to do it without making things worse and without removing the fun that we have when we bench. Edited January 8, 2012 by gnidaol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xtreme Addict Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 (edited) OC Gods? So, wait, people ask us to change rules so it would improve (?) the League at HWBOT and thinking about it is not okay? This thread made me SIGH ... My point is that you play and behave as OC GODS. HWBOT now is so popular in OC world, is a marketing game through vendors, in fact is the only ranking and almost all great overclockers are submitting results. HWBOT changed overclocking art and has the biggest influence for benchmarking. Why? You gave Heaven global points... and what? everyone is playing it now etc. One year ago when 3DMark 11 was new and didn't have global points, who cared about benchmarking it? Purposely or not,you are dictators in OC community, it's the fact. I don't say that HWBOT is bad but beside benefits from it I see also a lot of disadvantages. I totally understand the idea of HWBOT and see how many good things you guys have done for overclockers. The most important for me is the number overclockers, we are in hundreds, not just few enthusiasts like years ago. Everyday we see new scores. Also you are gathering special bioses, try to publish tweaks. But on the other hand you are also too bounded with sponsors. Why Afterburners Extreme Editions aren't published in forums, just like coldslow bioses? Because MSI is HWBOT sponsor... And only special people have access to it. You introduced points and made OC community hostile, cause it's programmed in human nature, that someone wants to be better than other and thanks to points it's very "clear" for the first glance and second thing is that now vendors are also in the race. In my opinion dividing leagues was a mistake, why? The most visible is PRO in the frontpage. If normal leagues were also promoted it would be better, but now vendors only are interested in PRO league. Some voices say create another "Vendor league" but it would be another mistake. People who overclock for vendors like it and are also human beings and most of them were overclocking way before they became vendors employees. If you want to create more friendly atmosphere delete points or play nice role and publish all utilities for extreme oc, guides, mods etc. and so on, despite "sponsorship", it would create more equal chances. As Mafio said, there will always be people who can buy more hw and bin it, binning is only the matter of $ or connections, only one factor will do - if someone can buy 100x 2600K or 100x 3960X retails, he doesn't need vendors help, only some tools for extreme OC. And now I ask you guys, if someone bin for their earned money is good? and when someone bin hw because he has connections is bad? Remember, if you have $ you can buy everything, ES samples, Xpander and so on. Introducing another restrictions will be more and more playing OC GOD role. Leave hwbot system just like now, it's tolerable or do something for hostility in OC community and delete all points. it's unfair that someone could buy 4 ferrari when i can only buy one...we must do a rule stating that none could have something better than what i have... sorry but in the last months i benched only AMD cause i hate SB and SB-E crap. i spent the past 2 days clocking at LN2 a bulldozer CPU, 2 days of work plus another bunch of hours of pretesting and i get something like 5 points. but i'm not here bitching (yes, you guys are doing anything but bitching and moaning) because a huge load of noobs with an air cooled 2600k and a DU OS are getting way more points than what i get for my 2 days with the CPU at -190°. this is because i bench for fun, i really don't give a crap about points. i have to agree with Xtreme Addict, points are killing overclocking...... that's my point, those OC points are killing OC for various hardware "Benching 1x and 4x GPU are two very different things." But benching SAME benchmark is only one thing.... If you got points to Vantage (exemple)....you just got your Vantage points.... This will turn more equal chances to all (this I AM SURE).... I liked the way before - 1x global points per benchmark, and WR for 4x GPU actions, but than 2x GPU or 3x GPU was simply DEAD, now new model develops 2x and 3x benching. All things have positives and negatives. I would leave it just like it's now. Edited January 9, 2012 by Xtreme Addict Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K404 Posted January 10, 2012 Author Share Posted January 10, 2012 It is true. People bench what has the most points attached to it. Give one random category 250 points per gold and watch how the submission patterns change.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crew Leeghoofd Posted January 10, 2012 Crew Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) If HWbot were dictators threads like this would not exist and you would have exited already weeks ago... hard or soft way... before throwing any more heavy words versus the HWbot staff I would suggest you to properly look up the words you are using... I find some words you are using Addict a bit too far fetched... Due to the numerous changes many started rebenching the old stuff, which is cheap. SLI and co get far better rewarded too now... No system is flawless. Have you ever wandered around in the real world ? Do you notice any similarities ? Is everything perfect there ? If so good for you... Some people will just have more toys to play with. By setting more and more rules things get overcomplicated. And is there a bulletproof way of verifying things ? Nope... and honesty in a competitive sport is just not possible. Utopia if you ask me... So Addict you want one league, do you think the vendors will look for you at ranking 300 ? Do you think their attitude towards sponsoring overclockers and co will dramatically change ? Dunno... Those that are on top have worked for it the last years. They work or are sponsored by the big manufacturers. Okay thye have access to the goods, but they are also masters in overclocking/modding, discovering tips and tweaks... Their ranking is not solely determined by the hardware they received... Those that want to be on top have to adjust to what is hot and what is not... Plain logic that the highest scores are awarded the most points. And ofcourse it's common sense that highly competitive people bench the hardware that get's rewarded the most. In any sport/hobby if you want to compete you have to invest in the latest and the best... you simply have to adjust... I really don't see the issue with all of this... I can't buy a 7970 now, so I drop massively in the rankings. Do I care ? Nope coz it's just a hobby, I bench what I can get my hands on... Maybe a few months down the road I can get one when everyone starts to bench 780... Will we restart a similar debate once Kepler hits the shelves ? If you want something to change you also have to propose a valid solution that can work out for most users and not just for you... I like some ideas here but most are really a flash back of previous discussions... I can't buy that stuff so I get pissed off with the system. Isn't that the root of all this ? Edited January 10, 2012 by Leeghoofd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xtreme Addict Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 I don't see in my post heavy words. I guess you misunderstood me. I don't say that HWBOT is bad, I only say that HWBOT is OC dictator cause HWBOT staff decides where give points and when points are given people start benching cause points are now important. That's my opinion and without strong arguments I won't change it. I don't like points as I wrote in my previous post, it's killing atmosphere in OC community, that's my opinion and I speak it loudly but I also wrote that new revision of HWBOT is good for me (I like fact, that now people start benching 2x GPU, 3x GPU cause I love multigpu), but another restrictions in my opinion aren't good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massman Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 A couple of things: 1) Marketing would've gotten involved sooner or later. They see value in promoting their product with information from this site; without a very good legal team there's no way to stop this. Besides, why wouldn't you allow vendors to show off your achievements to the rest of the world? For most overclocking is just a hobby, so I reckon it's rather cool that a vendor picks up on your achievement and wants to brag with it? Unless you're in this for the money, in which case I'd recommend suing each vendor that uses any of your scores. 2) The Pro OC League was created as per request of the community, not by HWBOT. Link to one of the discussion threads: http://hwbot.org/forum/showthread.php?t=8007. 3) The reason we decided to put the more (obvious) stress on the Pro OC League is exactly what you claim is bad: to get vendors and marketing out of the regular league. What do you think would happen to the Overclockers League if that was the one we put the most stress on? Vendors would figure out that's the league everyone is watching and start figuring out how to get the top guys to use their products and show them off. At least now, there's much less incentive for marketing teams to start actively working the Overclockers League. So, this is supposed to be a good thing. 4) Regarding Afterburner: yes, I don't publish it at HWBOT. I have a personal agreement with MSI, though, it's not part of the HWBOT contract. I'm sorry that I can't force everything to be shared (even though I would want it). Guess I'm just human after all. 5) Interesting you should mention that the pros should leak everything. I've explained the irony of this request in this thread before, but finding modifications and testing them is part of the whole overclocking game. It's part of what a lot of you like to call skill. When all the modifications are shared, people start saying there's no skill in overclocking anymore, but when no modifications are shared, people complain how this world is so unfair and that there are no equal chances. Well, perhaps even more ironic is that a part of the people who first complain about the lack of information regarding the mods, when figuring it out on their own, also won't share the information . I wonder how long Shamino and Andre will be able to hold of sharing the information on the 10 hardmods that are apparently requires to run the HD7970 cards. Remember GTX295? It took a LONG time before any of the 'priviledged' (ie: Kingpin, Andre, SF3D, ...) shared information on how to prepare the card. Remember GTX480? There were only a couple of people who had the coldslow bios and it took Hipro5 get angry and share before the others could bench themselves. Years before that, however, Hipro5 also didn't detail how he had modified the Radeon X2900XTX to run over 1300MHz GPU. There are plenty more examples that show that even the great legends don't always share everything. It's been happening long before HWBOT got leagues and it won't stop if we quit the leagues. Just a part of the world we bench in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knopflerbruce Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 IMO if the mods require NDA documents only a handful of lucky guys have access to, then we could sy that sharing the mods is a good idea. In other cases, it's just knowledge or skill. I don't know much about electronics, and if you want to be at the very top I guess you SHOULD know enough to figure out your own mods. Back to school, people:D As for the leagues, I'm all for merging if all HW boints count for the total:p To be a bit more serious, I can't imagine disabling the points will help in many ways. Then people will ONLY focus on the cutting edge stuff - I bet very few guys like Karl and Sam would get noticed without points, even though they deserve some attention more than most people who run 3960x and 4x 7970 on LN2 right now;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaPaKaH Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Nice to see this thread massively derailed. We started it as "having what hardware makes you a pro?" and ended up with "what's the point of life"-like discussion. Obviously, it's all Massman's fault Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massman Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 "having what hardware makes you a pro?" Oh, so easy then: 1) New-gen ES That's all. The question was probably to define the difference between ES and 'retail' since some products are never really retail. But we know how that discussion works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xtreme Addict Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 A couple of things: 1) Marketing would've gotten involved sooner or later. They see value in promoting their product with information from this site; without a very good legal team there's no way to stop this. Besides, why wouldn't you allow vendors to show off your achievements to the rest of the world? For most overclocking is just a hobby, so I reckon it's rather cool that a vendor picks up on your achievement and wants to brag with it? Unless you're in this for the money, in which case I'd recommend suing each vendor that uses any of your scores. 2) The Pro OC League was created as per request of the community, not by HWBOT. Link to one of the discussion threads: http://hwbot.org/forum/showthread.php?t=8007. 3) The reason we decided to put the more (obvious) stress on the Pro OC League is exactly what you claim is bad: to get vendors and marketing out of the regular league. What do you think would happen to the Overclockers League if that was the one we put the most stress on? Vendors would figure out that's the league everyone is watching and start figuring out how to get the top guys to use their products and show them off. At least now, there's much less incentive for marketing teams to start actively working the Overclockers League. So, this is supposed to be a good thing. 4) Regarding Afterburner: yes, I don't publish it at HWBOT. I have a personal agreement with MSI, though, it's not part of the HWBOT contract. I'm sorry that I can't force everything to be shared (even though I would want it). Guess I'm just human after all. 5) Interesting you should mention that the pros should leak everything. I've explained the irony of this request in this thread before, but finding modifications and testing them is part of the whole overclocking game. It's part of what a lot of you like to call skill. When all the modifications are shared, people start saying there's no skill in overclocking anymore, but when no modifications are shared, people complain how this world is so unfair and that there are no equal chances. Well, perhaps even more ironic is that a part of the people who first complain about the lack of information regarding the mods, when figuring it out on their own, also won't share the information . I wonder how long Shamino and Andre will be able to hold of sharing the information on the 10 hardmods that are apparently requires to run the HD7970 cards. Remember GTX295? It took a LONG time before any of the 'priviledged' (ie: Kingpin, Andre, SF3D, ...) shared information on how to prepare the card. Remember GTX480? There were only a couple of people who had the coldslow bios and it took Hipro5 get angry and share before the others could bench themselves. Years before that, however, Hipro5 also didn't detail how he had modified the Radeon X2900XTX to run over 1300MHz GPU. There are plenty more examples that show that even the great legends don't always share everything. It's been happening long before HWBOT got leagues and it won't stop if we quit the leagues. Just a part of the world we bench in. 1. I agree with that, all legends started OC before they joined vendors, so vendor league wouldn't be good solution. 2. Dividing OC Leagues was a noble idea but all Leagues should be promoted the same by HWBOT, all deserve its place on frontpage in my opinion. 3. I think it's bad cause someone in OC League won't be interesting object for vendor, cause OC League isn't promoted. 4. It's a pity, but you honestly said about situation - I understand it. But beside it HWBOT can start gathering other OC software just like bioses, guides etc. 5. Vmods are vmods, someone good at modding like TiN or hipro can put a lot of work to do crazy vmods - I admire it and I don't say that they HAVE TO SHARE IT (but it's awesome that most of big modifications are publicly explained by them ). I refer to software, sorry but special coldslow bioses, afterburners extreme or any other special software (high voltage, high clocks) etc. aren't skill or hard work, all those softwares are created by vendors and in many cases they are sent only for special overclockers. Is that skill? In my opinion - NO, that's why I would love to see that some big player in OC comunity (like HWBOT) started better policy and collect, politely ask vendors to make it public etc. I hope you catch me. So summing up, I didn't want to offend anyone, I only describe my suggestions: 1. Don't give more restrictions for leagues. 2. Promote other leagues the same as PRO or delete leagues. 3. Start collecting special versions of OC utilities etc, gather public (tested) vmods, maybe prepare guides? I guess there is a lot of people who would help in that. Let's start better atmosphere in OC community. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knopflerbruce Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 I agree that BIOSes should be shared - unless the bencher did the coding himself, which is highly unlikely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mafio Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 you are right, that's another joke. they advertise mobo and VGA as overclocking heaven, but an "average joe" isn't allowed to have unlocked tools, CB-free bioses, etc etc the good thing is that we are not forced to buy anything, if you don't like how this or that manufacture act simply don't buy its products. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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