rbuass Posted February 7, 2012 Posted February 7, 2012 (edited) I would like to re open a discussion to, vote to. The reason is to try to turn more fair hwbot rules, and more than this, to rank the best overclokers that correct way. So, in my way of view, the best results and more effort to earn more points, and sure, let hwbot be more fair and competitive. I think each benchmark have to earn only once time the hwboints. My point of view is that is not fair to earn points with 1, 2, 3 and 4 VGAs... This make less fair and give more chances to the overclockers that haves more money or more conditions to compete. In my point of view, thats ok the guy earn points to 1 card...or 2 card....or 3 cards...or 4 cards...but if the guy earn points to 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 cards he will have many more chances even he needs to be less effort... The scenario today is to see guys with multi GPU HD 7970 earning lots of points and more points to run in low frequencys....and lots of guys working hard to push his only card with less hwboints. This is not only for me, that can not compete with 4 cards... but you can check that there are few people that compete multi 3 or 4 GPU, what give points regardless the results. HWbot gave an agreeded to give Global points to WR, exactly to fix the unfair competition (less points cause 4 way haves less competitors...so 4 cards add Global extra Points) My purpose is to check what oerclockers think about it. I vote to turn back last revision...when each guy can earn hwboints only each 3D benchmarks (for exemple...if the guy compete 1 card, 2 cards, 3 cards and 4 cards...he only will earn the result that gaves more hwboints), so Its only valid to personal points, 1 time to 01,03,05,06, Vantage, 11, AM3, Unigine. I know it needs a diferent work to run 1, 2, 3, and 4 VGAs, but if the guy earn his max points for only one of this way, he just received his prize. Further...to me...this will turn many more competitive the ranking (as all can comprove)... I have met with lots and lots of guys about it, and looks like I am not the only that think this way I hope you understand my bad english....sorry about it Edited February 7, 2012 by rbuass Quote
K404 Posted February 7, 2012 Posted February 7, 2012 (edited) I disagreed until I read : each guy can earn hwboints only each 3D benchmarks (for exemple...if the guy compete 1 card, 2 cards, 3 cards and 4 cards...he only will earn the result that gaves more hwboints and that *could* work..... but i'm quite neutral about the situation. I don't mind. Buy 3 or 4 cards, use the stock cooler with the CPU frozen (because most scores will be CPU-bottlenecked,) get scores, sell the spare cards with a small reduction in price, it doesn't cost that much to bench 3 & 4 way. Also have a bonus of knowing things are less likely to die. For the global scores that DO scale with 4 cold GPUs....... how many people here have done that without company support? Edited February 7, 2012 by K404 Quote
I.nfraR.ed Posted February 7, 2012 Posted February 7, 2012 it doesn't cost that much to bench 3 & 4 way. Oh, yes, sure . I have to give all my money from what's left of the monthly salary after paying taxes, loan and food..for one HD7970. That makes it 4 months in a row to have 4 way CF. Not mentioning the other hardware required. And after that I will be stuck with those cards, cause there are not many people who will have the money to buy them. And all this considering the fact I'm a developer that has much higher salary than the average in Bulgaria. It might look easy, but that's only if you have the initial cache to buy those cards at once. Quote
K404 Posted February 7, 2012 Posted February 7, 2012 Please don't mis-interpret my comment Assuming nothing dies and you have a good resale value, benching 3-way SLI might only change your bank account by 40-60 euros. If you want global points, that is not a high price to pay in the grand scheme of things. My comment has nothing to do with affording the gear in the first place Quote
jeremiaspc Posted February 7, 2012 Posted February 7, 2012 I totally agree rbuass. We have no one overclocker in all our country, that plays 4 cards... The only one that we have lives in Japan. I am sure we will be many more fair if we have only 1 score valid each benchmark... rbuass+1 Quote
knopflerbruce Posted February 7, 2012 Posted February 7, 2012 I don't think it's our task to reduce the expenses of overclocking as much as possible. The system works the following way atm: you get globals for your 15 best submissions in each category, and 1-4 GPU for benchmark X are counted as 4 different categories. This means you can choose your battles. If you run 1-4-way of some benchmark, then you've got 11 more benchmarks that count for your total. In the end, if you want the maximum number of boints, you can't rely on 3/4-way runs - you need to have a few singlecard runs too, as they're worth alot more points because of the extra competition. The only advantage "rich" people have with the new system is that they have a few more choices compared to people who can't afford 3/4-way rigs - but there are still plenty of other benchmarks to run if 3/4-way is out of reach. (cpuz, superpi 1m & 32m, pifast are 4, 1->6x PCMark05, wPrime 32m & 1024m = another 18. 01, 03, 05, 06, Vantage, 11, Heaven, Am3 for dual + singleGPU = another 16, so the total for people on a budget: 38 benchmarks. Compare this with the 15 you need for your profile) Even though this is not a perfect system, it's still better than the old one - where you HAD to run singlecard because of the extra points. It's much more flexible now. Quote
rbuass Posted February 7, 2012 Author Posted February 7, 2012 We are talking about 3D knopflerbruce... We have only 8 benchs 3D... 01, 03, 05, 06, Vantage, 3DM11, AM3 and Unigine... and we have no forget that 05, 06, 01 is lots of CPU bound... We are talking about effort...deserve...and to have conditions...and sure...to be most fair is possible... The guy that get good scores with 1, 2, 3 and 4 VGA just will earn his better score... and how fair is this guy that can have all his better scores with 3 or 4 benchs How fair is this against the guy that needs to push hard and need to know about 15 diferent benchs to reach the same.. I think if the guy earn points with 1, 2, 3, 4 vgas he was pushed by his conditions... Is only my way of view...and I would like to know what overclockers community thinks about it... I never saw once guy here benching 4 VGAs in the air... it can be common in USA, Europe, Taiwan, etc...but not in South America and Africa. Why is not fair to earn points only with one each benchmark? Quote
Gunslinger Posted February 7, 2012 Posted February 7, 2012 fair is a relative term, no matter how the calculations are set up someone will say it's not fair for some reason or another. In a ranked league, it should be up to the participating members to decide how much effort to put into it, and at what level they want to participate at. IMO the way an individual's points are being calculated has changed too often in the last 2 years and should be left alone for at least 2 years going forward. Quote
knopflerbruce Posted February 7, 2012 Posted February 7, 2012 We are talking about 3D knopflerbruce...We have only 8 benchs 3D... 01, 03, 05, 06, Vantage, 3DM11, AM3 and Unigine... and we have no forget that 05, 06, 01 is lots of CPU bound... We are talking about effort...deserve...and to have conditions...and sure...to be most fair is possible... The guy that get good scores with 1, 2, 3 and 4 VGA just will earn his better score... and how fair is this guy that can have all his better scores with 3 or 4 benchs How fair is this against the guy that needs to push hard and need to know about 15 diferent benchs to reach the same.. I think if the guy earn points with 1, 2, 3, 4 vgas he was pushed by his conditions... Is only my way of view...and I would like to know what overclockers community thinks about it... I never saw once guy here benching 4 VGAs in the air... it can be common in USA, Europe, Taiwan, etc...but not in South America and Africa. Why is not fair to earn points only with one each benchmark? Getting a 4-way setup to work properly is no easy task. To reward those scores with a fair amount of points is like rewarding skill. And running singlecard is something different from 3/4-way, probably more different than the difference between a couple of benchmarks in terms of benchmarking. Plus, only the very best (top 5) 3/4-way scores get alot of points, the rest get like 20-25 max - which is not the case for singlecard. It's not just like boot up your rig and get 100 points for 4-way, remove a card and get at least 80 for 3-way. You need to put up some effort to be able to get more points in those rankings than for singlecard. If you got 100 points for 5th place in 3-way rankings I'd get your point, but that's not how it really is. You can create a poll if you like. Quote
thebanik Posted February 7, 2012 Posted February 7, 2012 Neutral here, the original discussion/argument while changing the rule was that if we do not award the 3/4 SLI/CF people then they would not put effort to get those scores (most of the time its the same people who have Single WR as well), which mean there might not be people to push for Global records, which we certainly do not want. Agree with Gunslinger lots of rules has been changed, no more changes......... Quote
Massman Posted February 7, 2012 Posted February 7, 2012 FYI, for the 3DMark Vantage ranking - 1xGPU => 33.6pts needs rank #36 - 2xGPU => 33.7pts needs rank #19 - 3xGPU => 33.6pts need rank #3 - 4xGPU => 33.7pts need rank #3 - 4xGPU => 34.9pts need rank #9 (with 15 3DWR points) So, even in the multi-gpu categories you need decent ranks to match 'average' score in 1xGPU. With 7970 the rankings are a bit skewed now, though ... but that's always the case. Quote
TaPaKaH Posted February 7, 2012 Posted February 7, 2012 I think there's no point to adjust the rankings any more .. what you can achieve by 'skill' other guy can compensate with money/luck, so we'll be back to square one again. Quote
rbuass Posted February 7, 2012 Author Posted February 7, 2012 (edited) Hahaha Honda...no way... 4 times more LN2 and 4 slim pots can kill my budget... I am not talking only about me... To me (IMHO), before when 3D benchs earn only 1 result, has more chance to all... Everybody haves 1 videocard...but very few haves 4... People here talking about 25 global points is like nothing...but you have to push hard to get 25 points more.... So...you plus 25 each benchmark...and bingo... you win... Let's compare results (you can do it)... Take the better OCCkers of the world... Compare their results... I do not need to tell the names... just look for the top dogs to find that almost never get monster scores like Nick or Andre... You will find top dogs that runs good scores, but not amazing scores...in the top of hill... That's a democratic house...so I feel free to tell that is impossible to be fair with all...but fell free to tell I think is more fair to give hwboints once per benchmark... Sure I will respect what more people agree...and I know I have people that folow and agree my POV and people that disagree. Edited February 7, 2012 by rbuass Quote
K404 Posted February 7, 2012 Posted February 7, 2012 (edited) If everyone gets one global contribution per benchmark, I expect most people will choose single card because it costs less. Then because the level of competition is higher, for most people, their ranking will be lower, so fewer points. OR.... spend money for less competition and no LN2 needed. Fewer points, but probably a higher ranking. Either way, each user must have a great CPU. ...speaking of CPUs..... what is your opinion on...e.g.... wPrime? One global result per user? What if this idea was introduced for the enthusiast or extreme league only? Edited February 7, 2012 by K404 Quote
knopflerbruce Posted February 7, 2012 Posted February 7, 2012 wPrime is a bit different - you run completely different setups for singlecores and quads, for example. There will be an adjustment of points for "weird" rankings, so you won't get 60p for the top score in the 3x, 5x + server rankings anymore. Quote
rbuass Posted February 7, 2012 Author Posted February 7, 2012 (edited) You ask my opinion about wprime???... Yea... only one best WPrime result...and only will add points the best score... But is just my opinion...I am not talking that I am sure and neither that is not fair.... But VGA earn points to 1, 2, 3 and 4 VGA "to me" is unfair... People can tell is few unfair...or lots of unfair...but unfair...(IMHO) Look at, for exemple a great overclocker results: I am not talking that Russians guys was not great overclocker....neither that they don't deserve to be overclocker kings.... but...I am trying to prove that the guy that bench only single card NEVER will be top 3 for sure... Or....need to be a Shamino, Andre and this guys that haves huge knowledge PLUS huge conditions.... I think we have to be free to post...then if you think diferent....is just disagree or agree. Thanks for read. Edited February 7, 2012 by rbuass Quote
knopflerbruce Posted February 8, 2012 Posted February 8, 2012 Wouldn't that be a bit weird, too? No multi-GPU results and still top 3? Quote
rbuass Posted February 8, 2012 Author Posted February 8, 2012 Why weird? To be #3 .... is needed to be a very good overclocker???...or is needed to have multi cards??? The best overclocker of the world need to have multi cards??? (thats a pity,... I think I always will fight to keep in top 20...never top 5) Quote
knopflerbruce Posted February 8, 2012 Posted February 8, 2012 Well, ideally you should be able to run everything (if the main goal behind the global league is to show skill in all types of benchmarking, that is). But I wonder, say if you have 4 7970's - where is the easy part in benching... say 1, 2, 3, 4x GPU in 3DMark11, for example? You say it's easy points, but you don't really say why. But I'm done here (I think) I've said my opinion. We've discussed this before, and i don't think we agreed back then either. I'd also like to say that I agree with a couple of others here that it's not good to change the point system too often. Quote
Mikecdm Posted February 8, 2012 Posted February 8, 2012 It just seems like it's a money concern. It's not fair for people to run 4x gpu an get a lot of boints because I can't afford one. But it is fair for a person to buy a $500 gpu and spends thousands on finding or buying a high clocking cpu. Yet there are those who cannot even afford a $500 gpu and only can afford to try their luck once with a cpu. It sounds like people are trying to have rules changed in order to cater to their specific needs. Quote
Massman Posted February 8, 2012 Posted February 8, 2012 I understand the point of view and I think the complaint is valid in a way. But, as others already said, it's all a matter of opinion: some will say multi-gpu benching should be less rewarded, others will say they should be rewarded more. It's just not possible to figure out a system where everyone is 100% happy. Anyway, the essence of a competition is that the organiser makes up a set of rules and the participants tries to figure out how to play within that set of rules. The participant should adapt to the game, the game shouldn't adapt to the participants. Fwiw, a similar case could be made with the CPU-limited benchmarks. Ie, with a very good CPU, you can get a lot of easy points in not only all cpu benchmarks but also 3DMark01, 03, 05, 06 and Aquamark. Well, it's not plug and play, but with a small amount of effort you can get nice ranks ... you know what I mean. Quote
rbuass Posted February 8, 2012 Author Posted February 8, 2012 (edited) "It's just not possible to figure out a system where everyone is 100% happy" Sure this is the problem... And sure I understand... thats why I think (IMHO) that 3D bench deserve to be mostv rewarded that 2D bench...but is only my opinion and thats not a discussion here... Can we see at least one of the top 3 thats have only one CPU (I noticed always the top dogs can bin nice gold chips)....but this is normal...and I think if they are there and have suppoort to have this way....is cause they earned to be there... I understand diferent opinion but I have no way to understand that "NEEDS" to reward with 1, 2, 3 or 4 VGA (I the true...I do not know why its changed at last revision).... "The participant should adapt to the game, the game shouldn't adapt to the participants" 100% agree .... but only bringing one thing that I think will change to better and turn more equal the chances for all. I think we can see here people with contries where is more hard to get hardware agree my point of view...against people that can bench multi card... Thanks to understand... and even that the rules will keep the same... I just wanted to bring and show what me and lots of guys that thinks like me. P.S. not only bring one more discussion...if ask "to take videocards from a friends to complete the 4 way or 3 way rig is "hardware sharing". Edited February 8, 2012 by rbuass Quote
Massman Posted February 8, 2012 Posted February 8, 2012 There are two problems with the sentence "... change to better and turn more equal the chances for all": 1) "More equal" is relative. Perhaps you think "focus on 1xGPU LN2" makes the game more equal, perhaps others think "spread focus for all categories" is more equal. What is "more equal" is a matter of opinion. 2) "change to better" is also relative. You are of the opinion that "more equal" is 100% change for the better, whereas others might think that it's better to have a system that is a bit "less equal", but more competitive. For example, some people are of the opinion that a flexible system where you can get points with 2xGPU gives them the option to run 2xGPU on LN2 and move up the ranks that way. Quote
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