Lucid Virtu MVP: Revolution in benching?

[Massman]

Hello all,

 

As you might have read on the Gigabyte Tech Daily blog, there's a new software technology by LucidLogix to be launched shortly. We all know Lucid because of the crazy "let's have nvidia and ati cards work together"-technology, but this stuff is more software than it is hardware. For now.

 

The HWBOT staff is currently discussing its policies regarding this new technology. Given the size of impact it might have on competitive benching here at HWBOT, we also like to hear what the community has to say on it.

 

Anyway, in short, what is Lucid MVP about? Well, here's a bit of lecture for ya!

 

Virtu MVP

 

Uncompromised Game Response Performance

 

At Lucid, we believe there shouldn't be a tradeoff between frame rates and visual quality. We think that when you click the mouse it should interact with the screen instantaneously. So we created the ultimate competitive weapon. Virtu MVP, is an optimized Lucid Virtu GPU virtualization software that makes your PC look better, respond faster, process video and media smoother, all within a low power environment.

 

Designed for the next generation of Intel Sandy Bridge Z68/H67/H61 and other Intel integrated graphics as well as many AMD processor-based notebooks, all in one PCs and desktop motherboards, Virtu MVP has many of the same features as the popular Virtu software, but with a twist – the addition of the optional Hyperformance™ feature for intelligent reduction of redundant rendering tasks in the flow between the CPU, GPU and display. Together with improved power management, Virtu MVP:

 

• Boosts responsiveness to the game at any frame rate
  
• Improves gaming frame rates 30-70%
  
• Increases Vsync frame rates – up to 120 FPS and beyond
  
• Sharpens visual quality without tearing
  
• Works seamlessly with hundreds of game stations

 

How Hyperformance Works

 

3D games put the greatest demands on both the CPU and GPU. And as the race for higher performance on the PC and now in notebooks never ends, both CPUs and GPUs keep getting more robust. Despite this, display refresh rates have remained fairly flat over the years, 60-75 Hz, except for 3D stereo displays at 120Hz. Lucid takes advantage of this disparity and eliminates redundant rendering tasks and predicts potential synchronization issues in the graphics delivery pipeline and intelligently removes and or replaces them for better game control.

 

For more details on the specific approach Lucid took with this software, please refer to the whitepaper. In my opinion, a must-read to really understand the main concept of the technology. Whitepaper: http://www.lucidlogix.com/download/WP-Eliminating%20Graphics%20Pipeline%20Redundancies%20181011.pdf

 

To summarize a lot of text, here's what's going on:

 

1) Lucid combines any IGP with a discrete graphics card

2) The IGP's task is to track down redundant frames

3) When there's a redundant frame, the IGP tells the discrete graphics card not to render it. This means that instead of rendering the entire frame (=100%), the discrete graphics card might render a part of the (~25%) or not at all (0%).

4) Because some frames are not rendered completely, more frames can be processed (20% rendering instead of 100% = 5x faster).

5) The FPS counter goes up super-dooper fast.

 

So it boosts FPS, what's the big deal?

 

As the PR states, the Virtu MVP is very likely to boost FPS rates by 30-70%. From tests, however, some reports state over 400% boost in FPS. A miracle? Or just cheating the counter?

 

Neither.

 

As Lucid indicates in interviews, the boost in FPS is not a real increase in FPS. Here are some quotes:

 

In this overview Lucid has made it clear here that the principle feature of HyperFormance is that it’s reducing the rendering workload on the dGPU by intercepting and removing some rendering tasks within a frame. This in turn would reduce input lag by either allowing a GPU to render a frame faster and move on to the next frame, or just hold off entirely until it's closer to a refresh cycle so that the rendered frame is not as old.

 

~ http://www.anandtech.com/show/4795/idf-2011-lucid-announces-virtu-ultimate-mvp-featuring-hyperformance-technology

 

Jarringly, the Fraps frame rate counter shot up to over 600 FPS with HyperFormance turned on—a consequence of the Lucid software choosing, behind the scenes, to render some frames only partially. Remez pointed out the Fraps count wasn't really a correct number, but he asserted that the higher FPS reading was an indication of responsiveness.

 

...

 

The key to HyperFormance is delivering the right frame at the right time, not an increased frame rate.

 

~ http://techreport.com/articles.x/21682/2

 

Cheat! Cheat! Cheat!

 

Hehe, I knew you'd react in this manner (since I wrote this post). Yes, on first sight it seems to be a cheat of the FPS counter. But, well, it's not. The 'false' FPS reading is not so much the fault of the Virtu MVP, but in fact ... the fault of the FPS counter itself. Virtu MVP does not directly address the FPS counter to make the performance look better. Actually, the Virtu MVP software doesn't 'care' about the FPS when doing its tasks, it cares about render resource efficiency.

 

As you understand fromt the process summary, this new technology makes it possible to either partially render frames or skip them entirely. The cool thing about this is that the image quality does not go down and Lucid claims the gaming responsiveness actually improves due to a better balance! Now, this technology is in fact very interesting because it resolves efficiency related issues: because the IGP figures out which frames have already been rendered, the discrete graphics card doesn't have to render it again. Instead of doing double (or triple work), the IGP makes sure it's only doing the necessary work. In my humble opinion ... it's the future .

 

Software ... or hardware?

 

Now, here comes another tricky part! In the whitepaper written by Lucid, they mention different implementations of this technology. One of the ideas is to have this technology embedded on-chip. Practically, put it on the IGP silicon. That would make it a hardware-based solution, not software.

 

Just imagine this technology being implemented on a next-generation Intel IGP, with the software being adopted as one of the instruction sets. That would mean you wouldn't have to install any additional software to have the FPS boost. It would be a complete hardware-based solution.

 

Allow or disallow?

 

There are a lot of arguments that can be made either against the software or in favor of it. I'd like to hear your opinion on this. Please, if you want to give your opinion, also use some sort of argumentation. Posts such as "this is total shit" will not be read. Instead, you might want to post "I think this is shit, because ...".

 

[Leeghoofd]

I vote against, as a 2nd IGP or whatever aids the other card in setting new records... The choice in hardware components will be far more limited when this will be allowed...

[TaPaKaH]

I vote against using it on existing benchmarks since this may skew the current rankings, but on some 3DMark2013 or whatever (after this technology is oficially released) why not ?

[xbeaTX]

allow ...

 

companies are pushing apu in the market....why not exploit them?

apu are cheap ... it would be a benefit for those who can not spend thousands of dollars for high end cpu ...I think this would make the competition for top positions affordable for more people

[Leeghoofd]

allow ...

 

companies are pushing apu in the market....why not exploit them?

apu are cheap ... it would be a benefit for those who can not spend thousands of dollars for high end cpu ...I think this would make the competition for top positions affordable for more people

 

So you assume the top benchers will not rebench with this ? Nothing will change there, current scores will just become higher...

[dinos22]

...bring it on

[flanker]

This is good impression, but for HWBOT points I say "NO". Only without point submission category (many people hard worked at points without this category in last years and now they cant lost points because exists Lucid Virtu MVP)

[Pt1t]

exemple of the gain with Gigabyte GV-R7770OC-1GD stock :

 

 

[dinos22]

I don't know what difference GPU brand makes but I can guarantee you this result was not obtained with a Gigabyte motherboard.

[Massman]

Performance leak by OBR (HyperFormance tech)

 

 

http://pctuning.tyden.cz/component/content/article/1-aktualni-zpravy/23394-exklusivne-na-pct-lucidlogix-virtu-mvp-v-akci

[Xtreme Addict]

I vote against

[Lippokratis]

i vote against it, because the software affects the benchmark and this is against the rules. when some frames are just particular calculate it is a change in the normal running of a benchmark. so for me this is cheating because you calculate less frames than the others who have pushed their hardware to the limits.

 

Lucid takes advantage of this disparity and eliminates redundant rendering tasks and predicts potential synchronization issues in the graphics delivery pipeline and intelligently removes and or replaces them for better game control.

 

just leave the software in the box and do hardware overclocking and not software cheating. no physix driver, no ati tesselation cheat, nothing where software interferes the benchmark.

[Pt1t]

I don't know what difference GPU brand makes but I can guarantee you this result was not obtained with a Gigabyte motherboard.

 

That s more with gbt ? I dont have Virtu MVP software for gbt.

[Apfelkuchen]

I vote against it. This would have too big of an impact on existing results.

[thebanik]

Though I am against it, but if there is no way to identify the disparity apart from manually checking the subtest score then I say allow it........

[OBR]

this is very easy how to mask it and cheat results, make an higher score then in normal mode, 3D mark dont recognize MVP activated! You will see many world records with low-end VGAs

Edited February 26, 2012 by OBR

[Massman]

That s more with gbt ? I dont have Virtu MVP software for gbt.

 

I think there's only one Virtu MVP software in circulation. Nothing for MSI either

[OBR]

I think there's only one Virtu MVP software in circulation. Nothing for MSI either

 

i thought it same way, but Asus soft not working on MSI board ... but dont know why ...

[Massman]

i thought it same way, but Asus soft not working on MSI board ... but dont know why ...

 

As far as I can understand from the Lucid website, the licence for the software is hidden in the BIOS code. So, I think the software just checks if the bios licence matches software licence or so.

 

I check MSI CD, but ... empty folder

[der8auer]

this is very easy how to mask it and cheat results, make an higher score then in normal mode, 3D mark dont recognize MVP activated! You will see many world records with low-end VGAs

 

Well I think at least here on HWBot we (result-moderators) have enough experience to find and block such results. Duno how FM plans to deal with it tho.

[thebanik]

Well I think at least here on HWBot we (result-moderators) have enough experience to find and block such results. Duno how FM plans to deal with it tho.

 

Its easy to increase clocks on idle for ss to match up with expected results......Mods do have experience to catch cheats who make mistakes I say.........If a experienced ocer decides to cheat (which I hope they would not), mods cannot do anything.....

[OBR]

As far as I can understand from the Lucid website, the licence for the software is hidden in the BIOS code. So, I think the software just checks if the bios licence matches software licence or so.

 

I check MSI CD, but ... empty folder

 

hehe, you have the same board as i ... empty folder too, too early blue samples in the wild ..

[OCPerformance]

I vote against

[sin0822]

I vote allow.

 

you guys vote against, can I ask why? Are you too lazy to OC the iGPU and to configure this program? You guys allow so many other tweaks to be used, but not one that actually revolutionizes gaming?

 

There is not point in using any of the sub-par Intel overclocking systems released in the past year, just to send a direct message to Intel please don't give us CPUs that don't OC to 6GHz, and cost more than we should be paying, and which clock so differently, it makes OCing less fun.

 

So when SB came out was there this much cry to not let SB be used b/c it would overtake the rankings?

 

http://www.lucidlogix.com/download/WP-Eliminating%20Graphics%20Pipeline%20Redundancies%20181011.pdf

 

I see what you mean you will lose points to software, but it is more than software, as the iGPU is being used. it is like Hybrid CF with Intel.

Edited February 26, 2012 by sin0822

[der8auer]

I vote allow.

 

you guys vote against, can I ask why? Are you too lazy to OC the iGPU and to configure this program? You guys allow so many other tweaks to be used, but not one that actually revolutionizes gaming?

 

There is not point in using any of the sub-par Intel overclocking systems released in the past year, just to send a direct message to Intel please don't give us CPUs that don't OC to 6GHz, and cost more than we should be paying, and which clock so differently, it makes OCing less fun.

 

So when SB came out was there this much cry to not let SB be used b/c it would overtake the rankings?

 

http://www.lucidlogix.com/download/WP-Eliminating%20Graphics%20Pipeline%20Redundancies%20181011.pdf

 

You're comparing apples with oranges.

 

SB overtakes the ranking due to its performance. Means the SB can give a boost to the score of a GTX580 but not to an 8800GT because this card is completely GPU limited.

 

There are ten thousand results which are done with the current rules. Now Lucid comes up with this software and all the hard achieved results will be gone. A 8800GT on stock cooler will kill all the LN2 scores which cost a lot of money, time and effort.

 

So is this fair to all the ppl who spent so many years with benching here on HWBot? I don't think so.

 

And IMO this software could kill the bot. If I have to rebench every score from the last 5 years just because of this software - I'm not sure whether I will continue with this hobby. And I know alot of other ppl who think in exact the same way.

 

This software may be nice for gaming but we are here on HWBot. I don't see any advantage we would get using this software but alot of disadvantages!