HWBOT Rev.4 - The Plan.

[Leeghoofd]

you can have 200 members but only 5 active benchers, there's the difference... Plus Pure started a deadly mix of the big shots from other teams... and they only gained in force...

 

Maybe it's a good idea of each team to see how many real contributing members they have...

Edited September 21, 2010 by Leeghoofd

[Deux]

you can have 200 members but only 5 active benchers, there's a difference

 

I'm aware but you inevitably run into the question of what defines active. It just seems ridiculous to me that a team with ~15 highly ranked members could be ranked behind a team that has one or two power players. In my mind a teams ranking should be reflective of the average quality of the members more or less.

 

I see where the idea comes from as it allows small teams to compete. If a team is being carried by one or two members in my mind it basically ceases to be a team at that point and people should just look at the individual rankings at that point

[Bustah]

If a team has a fair number of benchers but only a few contributing, whos responsibilty is that? its not the responsibility of the entire hwbot community, its the responsibilty of that particular team! motivate and rally your troops. if you think about it that argument is not much different than saying, its not fair, johnny has more money than me to buy parts. see the parallel?

Edited September 21, 2010 by Bustah

[K404]

Vince hand-picked the PURE teams, basically from all the "applicants" then closed team membership when he had the lineup he wanted. He chose from a bunch of well-motivated, generally well-funded guys. If Team membership was open, he'd have hundreds of hangers on who dont bench so much but like carrying the Team PURE name....it would sound great when approaching companies for support

 

**Technically** Team PUREs approach has come in for indirect criticism after I posted up my idea about a casual team leaderboard based on size. They've deliberately limited their intake to high-scoring members.

 

I dont mind any of this though. They have a system that works for them and everyone involved in the team knows the deal.

[SoF]

The solution to 389 posts of "you're an evil corporate bitch" is quite easy:

 

- Team League = as it is now

- new PowerTeam League = only best scores count

 

This way you can see the team thrust in the normal league and the true quality (assuming quality equals higher score) in the PowerTeam League.

 

wohooo it just took 389 sounds good to me - I find the new idea somehow interesting but not as a replacement for the current ranking. as an addition it seems good.

Sure it leaves the problem of hw sharing but we need to find other ways than simply removing a ranking to beat that. it's also on the users to post more informations about their sessions, take pics etc to make things as transparent as possible.

 

PS: I always thought you are a hardware whore, nothing more

Edited September 21, 2010 by SoF

[Massman]

Banning people for life just never works.

 

Maybe we could start with the concept: users accept that hwbot will not make a move unless there's actual proof of hardware sharing. So, no longer the "I think they cheat, now HWBOT has to fix all"

[sacha35]

Banning people for life just never works.

 

Maybe we could start with the concept: users accept that hwbot will not make a move unless there's actual proof of hardware sharing. So, no longer the "I think they cheat, now HWBOT has to fix all"

 

Why, if an individual has been found to be cheating then why not instant ban for life, this is no different to stealing or cheating on others for self gain.

 

I totally agree this is where it gets very difficult proving someone has been hardware sharing, but why not try to make things very hard for sharing like proving they have the hardware in the first place.

 

This will at least get users to buy the hardware they are supposedly benching and will stop a little of what is going on.

 

Again every bit of hardware comes with a serial/barcode number even CPU's, why not ask manufactures to start implementing this number into the parts being sold that then can be verified by software detection.

 

Again The bigger picture here as I can see

 

How to stop cheating and stop all the sharing, this is a big one to try and sort out, but think it can be done if everyone pulls together to stamp this out.

 

Harsher penalties for anyone found to be sharing or cheating (ban for life) rather than a few months.

 

The use of cheery handpicked manufacture parts is the biggest problem I can see, stamping this out has to be a top priority and again the use of manufactuers intended only parts such as the 2.4ES Gulftowns that are not available to anyone other than Manufactures.

 

How is it that HWBOT is indorsing the use of these parts and CPU's when they do not represent anything anyone can buy? this has to be stamped out.

[SoF]

Maybe we could start with the concept: users accept that hwbot will not make a move unless there's actual proof of hardware sharing. So, no longer the "I think they cheat, now HWBOT has to fix all"

 

That would be one way to get you out of that duty - people need to discuss in forum among each other then more frequently.

[K404]

I suggested it earlier... what about punishing the team as well, when hardware sharing is discovered? It would force the user to think about more than just their own gain.

 

I admit, the team is not responsible for, nor in control of, the individuals in the team. It would only work if the user cares about the team they bench for

[Massman]

The hardware sharing issues is not so much a problem of workload, but more an issue of accusation and distrust.

 

No one here is willing to give HWBOT full power to do anything we want. This means we can't remove scores or users without propper motivation. So, if someone accuses another one of cheating and then asks HWBOT to do something about it, we can either take action and piss off the user/team of the bannee, or piss of the user/team of the accusator.

 

The issue is also that when dealing with accusations, some team moderators go in self-protect mode and try to back their member up to a point where discussing is no longer possible. It's nearly impossible to find 100% proof of hardware sharing (mostly only indirect indications), and it becomes even harder if team moderators and team members are starting to 'fight' the 'machine' HWBOT.

[K404]

Well.... in the lack of clear proof, I wouldnt expect HWB to be able to make a firm decision that could be incorrect. You've listened to my concerns over a few members before, but there was no clear proof. I'm... frustrated, but I dont blame HWB.

 

 

I would say (to everyone) think someone is hardware sharing? Keep your concerns quiet for as long as possible. With comfort comes complacency and eventually they will make a mistake THEN, it will be easy for HWB to make a decision

[Bustah]

Like I said before hw sharing stinks, but where there is a will there is a way it happens and will continue to happen. my take on it is that anyone hw sharing knows there own truth, they know they are in whatever position they are in by foul means, that's there s**t, they have to live with themselves, if a person gets some perverse pleasure out of cheating let them have there fun. if concrete proof is available then the penalty should be very severe, if you abuse a system based on trust and are found out, you do not deserve to be a part of it. its as simple as that.

 

I'm pleased to see that hwbot wants to do something about the issue, but it seems to me that its an almost impossible task. restricting some other 'honest' users because of a few fakes is not in my opinion the way forward.

[thebanik]

Havent read after Page 34, but since we are talking about user payments/donation, something like users with 100 submissions(means they are hooked onto hwbot, ) need to pay a yearly fees of say 50-100$, if its more no problems with that too. But me too think that hwbot is not going in the right direction atm.....

[MaJ0r]

Look at my team http://hwbot.org/community/team/xtremelabs.org

We've got 13th place with 18 members, but only ten members are active, and TiN "does not participate in the hwbot rankings" Only hwpoints without global(including 1st place for CPU-Z) And we will reach higher place, so i think rev. 3 is working (In sense that small team can't fight against big team).

EDIT: We are living in Ukraine where 1k USD (980x) is big money and we don't have more 980x(1 of all team, and 2 pcs gave us other people).

Edited September 21, 2010 by MaJ0r

[thebanik]

Running costs are up to 35.000 euro for HWBOT a year (*), FYI. So even if a 1000 members would say yes to a subscription fee (which I highly doubt), the fee would be steep.

 

(*) and this is without the cost of development and design, only to keep te site running.

 

See I am a partner of a local technology forum as well, and companies put their ads just for the marketing they get out of the forum, I am sure these companies will be more than willing to sponsor a decent amount just for the banners and with no say about what the rules of running the website of International caliber like hwbot are. Hell how does Madshrimps run??? I am sure there are ads from companies on that website??

 

Edit : I guess only one, , but then hwbot is much bigger.

[Lippokratis]

The solution to 389 posts of "you're an evil corporate bitch" is quite easy:

 

- Team League = as it is now

- new PowerTeam League = only best scores count

 

This way you can see the team thrust in the normal league and the true quality (assuming quality equals higher score) in the PowerTeam League.

 

with that Rev4 sounds okay for me, but waiting for a beta view

 

 

short question about EL and XOL. did i understood it right, that all user, beside UFL benchers, are in the EL and XOL and the ranking in this league is depending on the results and cooling method. for example. i bench mostly with air so high rank in EL but somtime some dice scores. so the dice scores count for XOL so that i raise my rank in XOL with subzero benching or can i be only in one league?

 

and how to proof subzero benching? not that someone benches with dice or SS and put it in the air categorie. with older CPU it is hard to detect. please think about that. may just put El and XOL togehter

[thebanik]

Here's one for you bud.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perjury

 

Vmem mod pads don't burn themselves brand new out of a box as well as teammates don't feel obigated to later tell the truth if it wasn't really true.

 

Bottom line your credibilty is no good.

 

Gomer stay out of this, it's not your beef or problem and has nothing to do with BZ.

 

You know we know who you are talking about snitching and really I dont believe he would have said something like that. Its you who want to stir up something out of nothing.

Would you believe 3-4 years ago, I really looked upto your scores on AMD but man you make me realize skills are nothing, you got to have character as well to earn respect of your peers.

Though again you would say credibility not good but I will just repeat what some other OCA guyz have said earlier, we just sell hardware once we are done testing it. Every overclocker has to do this, so that they can keep competing in the hunt for global points. Hardware is sold in the open section with at max a member discount of say 25$ on a product worth 300-400$. I have never seen any specific hardware exchanging more than 1 hand.

I hope you stand up to whatever skills you have with character and stop the name calling you have been doing lately.

[GrGaKC]

See I am a partner of a local technology forum as well, and companies put their ads just for the marketing they get out of the forum, I am sure these companies will be more than willing to sponsor a decent amount just for the banners and with no say about what the rules of running the website of International caliber like hwbot are. Hell how does Madshrimps run??? I am sure there are ads from companies on that website??

 

Edit : I guess only one, , but then hwbot is much bigger.

 

I already suggested that and was told that isn't an option and they can't make enough money off that to keep up with site costs.

[chew*]

Banik,

 

First of all if a team was HW sharing not all members would know about it, not if they were trying to do it smart, in fact there would only be and need to be about 10 and they would give it a cool nickname like HSN ( hardware sharing network )

 

What better defense a larger amount of members with no clue that would rush to there aid to say I know for FACT it don't happen.

 

It's amazing I just pull these fine details out of thin air, let me take another hit of my crackpipe so I can come up with more.

 

You know if I'm guilty of one thing its being an ass about wanting to keep things legit.

 

Hate me for it if you like. Just as many shaking head in dissaproval there are many people shaking there head in approval.

 

I just happen to say what i think while others are either afraid to or acting like women backstabbing in there little private areas.

 

Bottom line I'm not here to make friends ( aquaintances yes friends no ), been there done that and had my to bury my best friend, I don't need more.

 

Movieman decribes me best, "I do not suffer fools well".

 

Put aside the fact that I speak up when I see a wrong doing and guess what i'm a preety cool guy and rather quiet as well as helpfull.

 

Anyhow I'm through with this thread as long live cheating on hwbot seems to be the chant.

Edited September 21, 2010 by chew*

[jmke]

See I am a partner of a local technology forum as well, and companies put their ads just for the marketing they get out of the forum, I am sure these companies will be more than willing to sponsor a decent amount just for the banners and with no say about what the rules of running the website of International caliber like hwbot are.

 

the international nature of the site might actually be a limiting factor if the sponsoring company puts the site in the basket of the local marketing budget.

 

HWBot owner -> Belgium -> Benelux budget -> tiny compared to US/UK/DE/TW

 

HWBot has year over year +94% more visitors

+125% more pageviews and +11% more new visitors

 

at this rate they'll surpass 2 million page views a month easily next year, which should give some good CPM for banner ads from small and big companies

they could also look into hiring an advertising company to do all advertising for them, thereby splitting the operational half (Massman, RB and others) from the monetary half (advertising)

making sure one doesn't influence the other.

Edited September 21, 2010 by jmke

[tiborrr]

Another thing I though about:

 

This new revision will kill rivalry between teammates. It's not all about benching together, much of the great results is done when you compete against someone you know very well. How many nights did I stay awake, run the cascade all night long just to push those ~ 500 pts that separated me from Moonman.

 

There is also one thing about benching together. We are not all 15-year old high school kids who have all the time in the world to spend on overclocking. It's very hard to organize a group session bench with my mates as we all have jobs, some of us have families. You will probably see a decline in number of good & optimized submissions. Organizing a bench for a day or two will not yield perfect results - anyone knows that. Perfect results are a result of a long time preparations and finding the perfect settings.

[GrGaKC]

the international nature of the site might actually be a limiting factor if the sponsoring company puts the site in the basket of the local marketing budget.

 

HWBot owner -> Belgium -> Benelux budget -> tiny compared to US/UK/DE/TW

 

HWBot has year over year +94% more visitors

+125% more pageviews and +11% more new visitors

 

at this rate they'll surpass 2 million page views a month easily next year, which should give some good CPM for banner ads from small and big companies

they could also look into hiring an advertising company to do all advertising for them, thereby splitting the operational half (Massman, RB and others) from the monetary half (advertising)

making sure one doesn't influence the other.

 

Nobody smart would put HWBot into local category considering the variety of people here. But I think that their advertising strategy (or lack thereof) shoud be discussed here.

[jmke]

Nobody smart would put HWBot into local category considering the variety of people here.

has nothing to do with "smart". All to do with ownership and where the site is situated.

[Splave]

The solution to 389 posts of "you're an evil corporate bitch" is quite easy:

 

- Team League = as it is now

- new PowerTeam League = only best scores count

 

This way you can see the team thrust in the normal league and the true quality (assuming quality equals higher score) in the PowerTeam League.

 

yes to this!

innovative and non destructive, now your talking

[Splave]

@ chew* what can I say man, romdominances hands are getting old and arthritis riddled ROFL . Regardless of what happen we used our backup card only after that point so it didnt matter. I was benching 2d at that point so I have to take my partners word.

 

PS you can ask brian for that card if youd like, we took one of brianY/goemelers cards instead