Massman Posted September 30, 2010 Author Share Posted September 30, 2010 How many people would actually send a "Golden" anything to their m8's?To me thats both stupid and crazy. That "Golden" would be "Deaden" in no time flat. Elmor has a 1450MHz GTX480 and a 1425MHz GTX480. He keeps the former to himself and sends the latter to all his team mates. Also, it's possible to have team sessions. You invite your team mates to bench at your place so you have full control over the golden piece of hardware. Also the three other issues I mentioned before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kal-EL Posted September 30, 2010 Share Posted September 30, 2010 Elmor has a 1450MHz GTX480 and a 1425MHz GTX480. He keeps the former to himself and sends the latter to all his team mates. Also, it's possible to have team sessions. You invite your team mates to bench at your place so you have full control over the golden piece of hardware. Also the three other issues I mentioned before. There are all manners of possibilities, I think we've all come to that conclusion. I don't think anyone has the silver bullet that will cure all evils. If thats what we're looking for, may as well stop looking cuz it doesn't exist. I thought we were working towards a more achievable goal of reducing hardware sharing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massman Posted September 30, 2010 Author Share Posted September 30, 2010 When a river is flooding water into your village, building a big wall so it floods to a nearby village is not the solution. Maybe you can reduce the bitching about 'hardware sharing' to a minimum, but what's the point if it increases the bitching about 'double accounts', for instance? Or just make the rankings a lot worse (where the biggest team always wins)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kal-EL Posted October 1, 2010 Share Posted October 1, 2010 When a river is flooding water into your village, building a big wall so it floods to a nearby village is not the solution. Maybe you can reduce the bitching about 'hardware sharing' to a minimum, but what's the point if it increases the bitching about 'double accounts', for instance? Or just make the rankings a lot worse (where the biggest team always wins)? The roof, the roof, the roof is on fire, we don't need no flooding, let the mofo burn, burn mofo burn? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crew Sweet Posted October 1, 2010 Crew Share Posted October 1, 2010 (edited) Mobo and SPD tab isn't really going to help, sadly... the other drawback I can think of... where will that info go in a screenshot? Juggling tabs over and over again to get all the (currently) necessary info in, whilst holding temps is bad enough http://hwbot.org/forum/showpost.php?p=73040&postcount=534 K404, I understand your point and I share, is very hard and sometimes impossible, depending on the monitor. This is seen in these pics, it's worse: in this simple example, recently uploaded http://hwbot.org/forum/showpost.php?p=72988&postcount=520 These two boys, I can assure that they have shared hard, same time, same place, same CPU, same mainboard, same memories, same Dice, etc.... I don't know if will share other things in life, but that if it was shared, maybe the bathroom also, not to say something more rude Request more information on the pics, is beginning to walk, in the future may find more or better things. But we must start with something, if only more information at first With all my respect for you, Doing nothing is bad, simple as it sounds, and I'm sure you share this (this comment....) Regards Sw Edited October 1, 2010 by Sweet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebluemeanie1 Posted October 1, 2010 Share Posted October 1, 2010 How about only one result per team at a specific clock speed? If every one else had to run at say 10 percent less than the highest score on the team it would prevent a shared golden chip from ruling them all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crew Leeghoofd Posted October 1, 2010 Crew Share Posted October 1, 2010 (edited) ' Hardware sharing being illegal is pointless, ... Sorry mate, that for me is one of the saddest comments in this thread...really could be misinterpreted as you in fact are favouring it... This hardware sharing is getting blown way out of proportion... What can ya do? Catch them if you can. Is it really There are loads of debatable scores amongst some teams... till now most are still outsmarting the Crew... though one day they will epicly fail... Damaging not only the big Greedy Ego some have, but also will hurt ya team... How many people would actually send a "Golden" anything to their m8's?To me thats both stupid and crazy. That "Golden" would be "Deaden" in no time flat. There's even no need to send the "golden" hardware out... scores can be shared too... There are all manners of possibilities, I think we've all come to that conclusion. I don't think anyone has the silver bullet that will cure all evils. If thats what we're looking for, may as well stop looking cuz it doesn't exist. I thought we were working towards a more achievable goal of reducing hardware sharing. Maybe only one option : the hard way or the highway ? Edited October 1, 2010 by Leeghoofd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxi Posted October 1, 2010 Share Posted October 1, 2010 Sorry mate, that for me is one of the saddest comments in this thread...really could be misinterpreted as you in fact are favouring it... He actually has a good point. I've never liked this approach, if all teams can share hardware there is no advantage. ES and other sample hardware in many instances do not belong to anyone specific yet their results are all over the bot. It's a ridiculous contradiction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massman Posted October 1, 2010 Author Share Posted October 1, 2010 No one realizes that allowing hardware sharing makes the teams league completely pointless; just a retard ranking where the biggest team takes the win just because they have the most manpower? Hello wallet-benchmark. If you want to allow hardware sharing AND have an interesting teams league, there's only one way: the teams league as suggested in the initial post and presentation. So basically, we're back at square one ... it only took 560 posts to realize this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knopflerbruce Posted October 1, 2010 Share Posted October 1, 2010 It's possible to be a bit more harsh when we ask for proof of not sharing HW, like if you sell a card you benched without taking a picture of it in case the result is questioned => your problem, and possible ban. ...I guess most people who share share because they don't want to spend $$$ on a card themselves more than using a better card of the same type to get more boints. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crew Leeghoofd Posted October 1, 2010 Crew Share Posted October 1, 2010 (edited) He actually has a good point. I've never liked this approach, if all teams can share hardware there is no advantage. I really hope you were joking... have you reread what you just typed there... It's not just about the sharing hardware, it's how this beahviour influences the team, member rankings... Aren't we then back to step 1, if we just would allow it ? Team with the biggest toys and most members will rule... Skill involved, maybe for some... how on earth will you ever get a decent ranking ? Things will go bananas !! All this chit chat and new soon to be imposed rules are the result of peopel that can't adhere to a simple set of rules. Allow hardware sharing and they will just try to break another rule in the near future... To get a more balanced ranking , stick to the imposed rules and don't fraud stuff... It's possible to be a bit more harsh when we ask for proof of not sharing HW, like if you sell a card you benched without taking a picture of it in case the result is questioned => your problem, and possible ban. ...I guess most people who share share because they don't want to spend $$$ on a card themselves more than using a better card of the same type to get more boints. Hence why you can share CPU, motherboard, rams and co for eg 3D, for 2D you still can share all but the CPU... but for some that isn't even enough... I'll shake your hand, you just pull my arm out Edited October 1, 2010 by Leeghoofd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knopflerbruce Posted October 1, 2010 Share Posted October 1, 2010 I really hope you were joking... have you reread what you just typed there... It's not just about the sharing hardware, it's how this beahviour influences the team, member rankings... Aren't we then back to step 1, if we just would allow it ? Team with the biggest toys and most members will rule... Skill involved, maybe for some... how on earth will you ever get a decent ranking ? Things will go bananas !! All this chit chat and new soon to be imposed rules are the result of peopel that can't adhere to a simple set of rules. Allow hardware sharing and they will just try to break another rule in the near future... To get a more balanced ranking , stick to the imposed rules and don't fraud stuff... Hence why you can share CPU, motherboard, rams and co for eg 3D, for 2D you still can share all but the CPU... but for some that isn't even enough... I'll shake your hand, you just pull my arm out The idea is that you can share the parts that don't make the score, which in most cases means CPU for 2D and GPU for 3D. I think that's fair enough:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massman Posted October 1, 2010 Author Share Posted October 1, 2010 As an alternative, we could make breaking the hardware sharing rules less beneficial by imposing a MaxTeamPoints limitation to all rankings. For example: Max(GTX480,3DMark03,1xGPU) = 42.8p => Accumulated member points for 1x GTX480 3DMark03 =< 42.8 Looking at this ranking, it would mean that the following people are contributing to the team's total: - Team Finland: SF3D and Maggaa - Hardwareluxx: Benchbros and suicidephoenix - OCClub: Smoke and Slamms - ... Alternatively the suggestion that the best score gets 100% of the points and all other scores (of the team) in the same ranking contribute 10% of the points to the team total. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christian Ney Posted October 1, 2010 Share Posted October 1, 2010 MM, developer team are going to be crazy with algorithmes like this. Servers too , you are going to need 1000 servers with 512 cores each Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knopflerbruce Posted October 1, 2010 Share Posted October 1, 2010 As an alternative, we could make breaking the hardware sharing rules less beneficial by imposing a MaxTeamPoints limitation to all rankings. For example: Max(GTX480,3DMark03,1xGPU) = 42.8p => Accumulated member points for 1x GTX480 3DMark03 =< 42.8 Looking at this ranking, it would mean that the following people are contributing to the team's total: - Team Finland: SF3D and Maggaa - Hardwareluxx: Benchbros and suicidephoenix - OCClub: Smoke and Slamms - ... Alternatively the suggestion that the best score gets 100% of the points and all other scores (of the team) in the same ranking contribute 10% of the points to the team total. Something like that last suggestion looks nice, then maybe HW sharing would mean little gain, but lots of pain (if caught), which would prevent most sharers from breaking the rules. Also, "noobs" will feelthey contribute at least something to the team total Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massman Posted October 1, 2010 Author Share Posted October 1, 2010 Another alternative is to have a team ranking as follows: Team points = "PowerTeam" points + % (global points) + % (hardware points) % can be seen from a personal perspective (eg: 20% of my hardware points are allocated to the team points) or from a team perspective (eg: 20% of the team's total hardware points are ...). Again, it makes hardware sharing less beneficial for the team ranking, but still allows people to support the team by submitting scores. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lippokratis Posted October 1, 2010 Share Posted October 1, 2010 i think to solution with the 2 teamrankings is the best. the one Power Ranking were the best score counts and than the normal ranking, just like the team ranking now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
der8auer Posted October 1, 2010 Share Posted October 1, 2010 (edited) Another alternative is to have a team ranking as follows: Team points = "PowerTeam" points + % (global points) + % (hardware points) % can be seen from a personal perspective (eg: 20% of my hardware points are allocated to the team points) or from a team perspective (eg: 20% of the team's total hardware points are ...). Again, it makes hardware sharing less beneficial for the team ranking, but still allows people to support the team by submitting scores. Yea this option could make hardware sharing less beneficial for team ranking but still i think there are more ppl sharing for personal interest. Is there no way to show a specific ID of e.g. a GPU? We'd just need a tool to show that. Everything would be finde then... edit: i think to solution with the 2 teamrankings is the best.the one Power Ranking were the best score counts and than the normal ranking, just like the team ranking now. Yep. Atm i think so, too! Edited October 1, 2010 by der8auer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxi Posted October 2, 2010 Share Posted October 2, 2010 No one realizes that allowing hardware sharing makes the teams league completely pointless; just a retard ranking where the biggest team takes the win just because they have the most manpower? Hello wallet-benchmark. If you want to allow hardware sharing AND have an interesting teams league, there's only one way: the teams league as suggested in the initial post and presentation. So basically, we're back at square one ... it only took 560 posts to realize this. Staying positive I see Hardware is only one aspect of the equation, a good result is not made by hardware alone. The point splave made that I agree with is there is no way to effectively moderate hardware sharing. No biggy, you know that and I know that, that's why you want to alter how we do things in the future and I'm all for it. Where we disagree is a new version of hwbot where sample hardware and seeded people will still influence the team rankings - and you're talking about retarded rankings... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massman Posted October 2, 2010 Author Share Posted October 2, 2010 I am staying positive, hence why I posted 3 alternative rankings already Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massman Posted October 4, 2010 Author Share Posted October 4, 2010 Yea this option could make hardware sharing less beneficial for team ranking but still i think there are more ppl sharing for personal interest. Is there no way to show a specific ID of e.g. a GPU? We'd just need a tool to show that. Everything would be finde then... I think Intel, AMD and Nvidia might have something to determine what CPU or GPU is being used exactly, but the question is whether they want to help the overclocking community by allowing 3rd-party access to this serial number. Also, think about the consequences: if HWBOT stores this information, it can also determine what CPU has been overclocked, so which specific CPU violates the warranty agreement. Even though we don't have any evil scheme, you can imagine that if Intel or AMD could lay their hands on this information a lot of people would not get an RMA from overclocking any more. Banning hardware sharing completely can only be done if we make it legal, but as mentioned before, that also comes with a lot of complications. Maybe the bitching about hardware sharing would reduce, but the bitching would just go to a different area. Think about it: the concept of hardware sharing rules was invented here at HWBOT to address HWBOT-specific issues. The were placed in action because users complained about it. The more I think about it, the more I'm leaning towards an adjustment of the current Teams League to address the hardware sharing. Not as strict as suggested in the opening post, but enough to make hardware sharing a lot less beneficial. If hardware sharing is less beneficial and the punishment remains the same, it might discourage people from doing so because reward/cost is lower. The suggestion that I found to be most transparent was this one: Another alternative is to have a team ranking as follows: Team points = "PowerTeam" points + % (global points) + % (hardware points) % can be seen from a personal perspective (eg: 20% of my hardware points are allocated to the team points) or from a team perspective (eg: 20% of the team's total hardware points are ...). Again, it makes hardware sharing less beneficial for the team ranking, but still allows people to support the team by submitting scores. Note: "PowerTeam" points are introduced here: http://hwbot.org/forum/showpost.php?p=71687&postcount=390 Every single score submission would still add points to the team's total, but the benefit from using the same hardware would be a lot lower (because not 100% of score points go to team's total). Please feel free to comment on this. Do note: I'm looking for compromises between community and staff . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knopflerbruce Posted October 4, 2010 Share Posted October 4, 2010 I think that's a reasonable suggestion. You'd have to cheat too much to really make an impact on the team boints, and if you're caught... you lose all your boints for whatever time period you're banned. Risk loosing 1000 boints to gain 10? Silly:D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobnova Posted October 5, 2010 Share Posted October 5, 2010 That flavor sounds good to me too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoro Posted October 5, 2010 Share Posted October 5, 2010 (edited) I agree! If we post a specific ID with a CPU/GPU result then this CPU/GPU cannot be used from anyone alse in BOT, thus it cannot be sold for OC purposes! (i don't consider this as hardware sharing, although it is!) From my point of view it is different to take the same CPU/GPU and sweat to achieve a great score than take the score already from someone else Edited October 5, 2010 by zoro Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drnip Posted October 5, 2010 Share Posted October 5, 2010 (edited) So what's the point of only allowing 20% of my hardware points to go towards the team points instead of the full 100%? All this just encase somebody is hardware sharing but for those that aren't your beat, only 20% of your hardware points count for the team. It all seems the same whether you use only 20% or 100% I just don't get why change. In the end it really doesn't matter to me whether you give me 1 point or 1,000 points. I overclock daily just for the fun of it not because I'm a bot. I once was sucker to thinking the bot put the overclock in overclocking but no longer think that a way and haven't for a year now. The bot has and does provide a nice service. I appreciate the guys that have put there everything into the bot and what it is today. Edited October 5, 2010 by drnip Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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