HWBOT Rev.4 - The Plan.

[Blutregen]

I agree that we need a poll for this new Rev4. I think this gives only disadvantage for teams having members with same interests and/or platforms.

 

For example:

 

In my team are at least 3-4 guys benching So. 462, every one with lots of CPUs. If only the best CPU give points for the team, this would cost much points.

As i can´t afford cascade or LN2 it would be totally wasted time for myself to bench in the future with Rev.4. I could never make any points on this platform for my team, and this is my main intention to bench : helping my team to get on top of Community rankings.

 

Hope my english is not too bad.

Edited September 19, 2010 by Blutregen

[Matti OC]

Ich halte das auch für keine gute Idee. Wozu soll das denn gut sein, außer denen die gesponsert werden, eine Plattform zu schaffen.

 

Ich meld schonmal mein eigenes Ein Mann Team an.

 

I think that this is not a good idea. Why is this supposed to be good, except those that are sponsored to create a platform.

 

 

 

@ Google

[MaadDaawg]

Dont be so hard on yourself. Its the idea that should be stillborn, not you ...... it's too late for that :p

 

+1

 

:rofl:

[Deanzo]

Hey masseyman

 

You can only be in one of the three leagues....yes/no

 

No matter what league you're in, you are part of the leader board.....yes/no

 

Hardware points that count to your total is going up from 300...yes/no

If yes, by how much are you thinking ?

 

Only best Global scores out of all team members helps the Team.

But does all the hardware scores help the team. ie: team has five of the top ten scores with a 7900GTX in 3D03. Do all five scores count to the team total......yes/no

Edited September 19, 2010 by Deanzo

[Hondacity]

look at top20 ....bodar..hicookie...4gpu world records...

 

I really don't understand why you should be having a higher rank just because you are able to buy high-end stuff.

[MaadDaawg]

Just to break the tension some...

 

K404 I LOVE your avatar

[OCPerformance]

its not the right time for off topic.

[rickss69]

Just to break the tension some...

 

K404 I LOVE your avatar

 

Horny old bastid... (You do know she is a transvestite, right?)

Edited September 19, 2010 by rickss69

[kow_ciller]

(You do know she is a transvestite, right?)

 

Thats not what her facebook says >______>

[Neuromancer]

look at top20 ....bodar..hicookie...4gpu world records...

 

I really don't understand why you should be having a higher rank just because you are able to buy high-end stuff.

 

Just to break the tension some...

 

K404 I LOVE your avatar

 

I loved it last night. Now I am spent.

 

*sigh

 

This thread is full of ideas.

 

I understand MM's complaint that the bot is not free. Understand it more so now that we know he is being PAID. Wow... paid staff!!! It is unheard of in tech forums. We do this cuz we love it and why names and faces change so much...

 

SORRY FOR THE LONG ASS POST

 

So...

 

I read the PPT... and still confused. From what it looks like, I will lose all contributions to the team if my score is less than what another team member is capable of doing.

 

 

If he gets first and I get second... then someone that got third gets second by default? That does not seem right... That is not fair to anyone second or third place. Teams are not about sharing HW... it is about community and sharing KNOWLEDGE. That is why teams are the gift that keeps on giving. I am on my second team, only because my first sucked so bad not because of points (I would be ecstatic if my team was in the top 100 let alone the top10) but because there was no community involved (apparently that changed you can ask bobnova he is on my former team).

 

HWsharing is definitely tough to prove, and a thorn in the side of fair and balanced participation. Look at wprime results for sempron 140 single core. 6 of top 8 are on the same team, using same CPU, same mobo.. dunno... also their screenshots only show up as thumbnails in opera or IE so no idea if they are running same BIOS and ram as well. And not one of them posted a 2X score? The odds of getting a sempron 140 that DOES NOT unlock are what 1:3? 4 of them should have 2x scores submitted as well.

 

Is it proof they are cheating? No. The board at one time was cheap... the chip is still very cheap... could they have all bought it? Absolutely. Also I did not delve into because I just do not care if they did cheat. It is a HWbot rule, and one I follow. It is called character and something I think most of us have.

 

HW sharing is going to need more proof than that. It looks obvious... but is it? Prices are low they could have all bought it. (why not easy points for low investment) Or sold it to one another at a discounted rate (pretty sure the assertions of $1 sales I have seen in htis thread are WAY OFF the mark. I have posted on at least a half dozen 100K+ member forums and their for sale sections always post a price and another price for "team members" no matter if it is a benching team, or a rosetta team or as I recently instituted a reviewer team. (rewarding those that give back to the community with knowledge). I understand you thinking that needs to change... but it doesn't. The complaint is not on old cheap HW the complaints are about the latest and greatest HW. So why punish us old HW users?

 

 

 

As for manufacturers having teams and supporting HWbot. Not so sure that was not going on already, but this could be a cost saving venture for them as the amount of free giveaways or review samples they will need to send out will totally dry up. Just an opinion.

 

 

 

In summation.

 

Do what you like. People will either deal with it (and bitch, but they bitch anyway)... or more probably since the rev 4 proposal seems to punish those that are on teams with OC'ers better than them, you will have 4 or 5 competitors within 6 months of rev4 being implemented. In another 6 months... there will be two, and your current "market share" will be split between them...

 

Trust in your members. Cheating may be an issue, it is pretty obvious who does it. Those that scream about cheating from others first and foremost, and those that have money to gain by the change.

 

HWbot is not about money... except for the mods (apparently) and owner and corporations for the rest of us its a simple nondescript website that should cost tens of dollars to maintain a month and is a comparison for how we rate against others.

Edited September 19, 2010 by Neuromancer

[Diabolique]

If this is indeed the future of hwbot, whats the point of teams then? Wouldn't everyone make their own person team with one person? It would just break the reason for having a TEAM. People wouldn't share secrets with their teammates anymore so they can stay at the top of the team ranking, etc.

True, and all teams do that. But in order to have some ideas, you need to bench. And if you don't have any motivation to bench, where do you get your ideas? And if you're not playing for any team points but only for personal points, why would you want to help someone beat your score?

 

It's all about money...

Why are you so selfish?

Is existing of teams is only matter of points?

Is team should be JBOP (just bunch of people)?

U are satisfied to be in team only because that team have most points?

 

Because of that whole world is fucked up.

 

Try to imagine soccer team where all players are best attackers in the world, and all trying to score goal.

If we have match between that team and average noraml team who will win?

Noramal team have goalkeeper, defense players, midlefielders, attackers, coach.

Something like that we should have in our teams.

 

In my country we have Basketball team with only "no name" young players, Partizan Belgrade. Last season was playing Euroleague semifinal (almost final), and two previous years Euroleague quarterfinal.

Olympiacos Piraeus earned the right to play for its second Euroleague title after surviving an overtime thriller to beat Partizan Belgrade 80-83

Money? Almost all teams in euroleague have at least one player who worth more than whole Partizan team.

 

I forogot, this is HWBOT

 

Maybe team is not only machine for gathering points? Maybe team is for creating some friendship? Maybe team is for learning and sharing the knowledge?

If we forgot thinks like this, there is no hope, not just for HWBOT tems, but for all humanity.

 

 

To compete with wealthiest teams and teams sponsored by manufacturer, average team must to spend a lot of money to buy several best CPU's and GPU's or to cheat. That was in old rules..

In new rules there is no benefit if team have 20 Gulftown's or 20 5870 or GTX480.

In matter of fact, with "Massman's" rules teams will spear money by working like team.

 

 

You can simply try advertising. Google AdSense might pay off if you manage to link it to eBay auctions people here might be interested in. May not pay much per click, but consider the fact that here you have 26k people, you MIGHT get some 2k clicks per month just from that. Not to mention getting companies to pay for banners on your site (hey, you said it, they want to get into OCing and pull some marketing there).

 

Separating manufacturer from overclockers will not get free hardware, online and live competitions...

HWBOT trying to connect manufacturers and overclockers. This is not sin. This is way how manufacturers will hear that we need more live competitions with affordable hardware.

 

 

@Massman

Think about points for livestream. Rewards for people who have most livestreams...

Maybe livestreams with submissions.

This is great opportunity for inexperienced users to learn from experienced.

With rev.4 maybe is time for slightly reducing points difference between popularand non popular hardware.

With rev.4 maybe is time for slightly reducing points difference between overclockers in middle of the list.

Example, Radeon HD 4650 single GPU. http://hwbot.org/hardware/videocard/radeon_hd_4650?tab=rankings#/manufacturer.rankings.do?applicationId=17&manufacturer=ati&hardwareTypeId=GPU_1587&hardwareType=GPU&tabid=gpubenchmarks

Why is 14th place ten times worth than 19th?

 

Thanks to great efforts.

Keep up good work.

 

 

@all

Obviously this is not perfect rules, but far as I know this is the best.

I think that we can give a chance to rev.4. If not work after a couple of months we can request rollback to rev.3.

 

Sorry for my bad english.

[Dahaka]

This is my opinion guys:

 

an example:

 

ME: hey yagami, you can't bench hd 5870 because i did with mine, so bench a 5850... "

Yagami: mmm, i don't have one....and i can't bench 5770 because cesariuth did it.

ME: ooohh ok, buy another one, i don't know maybe a gtx 480...

Yagami: Ok, i got it, but i don't have the money to buy that one...

 

My example goes directed to the little teams that really works like a team, i'm tooooooooo faaaaaar aaaawaaay from Concepción and Santiago ( cities of my partners and friends members of the Unknown-Team ), sending 3 o 4 times any hardware is almost de half of the value of that piece, is ridiculous ...

 

We have members and friends from Argentina, Colombia and Venezuela...how the f*ck is possible that i share hardware with that guys....DUH!.

 

I'm watting for the response of other ocers from Sudamerica.

 

Regards from Chile and sorry for my bad english.

[Neuromancer]

Nice post dahaka.

 

I think the rules need to be spelled out better. As far as I can tell the goal is to publish results from companies and all the rest of you are cheaters.

[Dahaka]

Thanks Neuromancer .

 

I will put on contact with the most people in LATAM as possible as i can to support with good ideas to the BOT, it's a little fraction that lives from this hobbie ( work for others lucky guys ).

 

We're to small to get access to a lot of hardware, no matter if is high end, mid end or low end so please Massman if you put us like an example, reconsider our opinion.

 

 

The world is bigger than EU and USA. South-America has a very strong overclocking community, but hardware is extremely expensive ... I really don't understand why you should be having a higher rank just because you are able to buy high-end stuff.

 

Regardless of the amount of money it costs to compete, with skill and effort you can always play. GTX480 or HD4670 ...

 

Bench is all about TEAM, i can't be the best one if i don't get support from friends and my team, please remember that and don't forget it!!

Edited September 19, 2010 by Dahaka

[KONAKONA]

With the current ranking system ( rev3 ) hardware sharing can easily be a competition killer.

How ? Let's say that I have a golden 980X capable of benching all the 3D Marks & AquaMark @ 6.6GHz - 6.8GHz, and the 2D's @ 6.9GHz.

Since I'm daydreaming allow me to say that I also happen to have a 1450MHz GPU / 1350MHz MEM GTX 480 graphics card.

Put those 2 together and you have top3 places on any benchmark if you know how to overclock those & basically tweak the benchmarks.

I do so.

And then pass both my CPU & VGA ( or the whole setup since you have nothing against hardware sharing ) to 10 teammates of mine...

 

There you go, me & my 9 buddies in the top 10, and a huge advantage for my team.

 

Hardware sharing is kinda killed when it comes to team rankings with rev4, but the main issue with hardware sharing, the individual overclocker rankings remain untouched, people will continue to share their HW to get their personal account a higher rank.

 

So? That's the reward of getting good hardware and being kind enough to share it. Too bad if you don't have it, deal with it.

[GrGaKC]

It's all about money...

Why are you so selfish?

Is existing of teams is only matter of points?

Is team should be JBOP (just bunch of people)?

U are satisfied to be in team only because that team have most points?

 

I am in my team because of the people, we all started off together, but many people switch teams just to get higher rankings. That's a fact. And I stand by what I said...

 

Try to imagine soccer team where all players are best attackers in the world, and all trying to score goal.

If we have match between that team and average noraml team who will win?

Noramal team have goalkeeper, defense players, midlefielders, attackers, coach.

Something like that we should have in our teams.

 

There's plenty of those, just look at Real Madrid (Los Galacticos)

 

In my country we have Basketball team with only "no name" young players, Partizan Belgrade. Last season was playing Euroleague semifinal (almost final), and two previous years Euroleague quarterfinal.

 

Money? Almost all teams in euroleague have at least one player who worth more than whole Partizan team.

 

Alo sefe, pogledaj Cibonu, decki nisu place vidli godinu dana pa svejedno igraju, takvi bi timovi trebali biti (ne kazem da je Partizan los), ali nazalost toga tu bas i nema, rijetki su takvi.

 

I forogot, this is HWBOT

 

Maybe team is not only machine for gathering points? Maybe team is for creating some friendship? Maybe team is for learning and sharing the knowledge?

If we forgot thinks like this, there is no hope, not just for HWBOT tems, but for all humanity.

 

If we're gonna bench just for fun and try and learn from our teammates, than why go to HWBot? We can do that on our local forums...

 

To compete with wealthiest teams and teams sponsored by manufacturer, average team must to spend a lot of money to buy several best CPU's and GPU's or to cheat. That was in old rules..

In new rules there is no benefit if team have 20 Gulftown's or 20 5870 or GTX480.

In matter of fact, with "Massman's" rules teams will spear money by working like team.

 

Separating manufacturer from overclockers will not get free hardware, online and live competitions...

HWBOT trying to connect manufacturers and overclockers. This is not sin. This is way how manufacturers will hear that we need more live competitions with affordable hardware.

 

Just an example... I bench anything I get in my main rig, I don't build benching rigs since I lack the funds for that. So, if I have a 4850 and my teammate has an 4850 I don't mind now, I bench it and try to make some points for the team. But if the new revision kicks in, I simply don't bench it since I won't do any good for the team, and lack the funds to gather more points for the solo competition. And in that case, I leave HWBot since I have no motivation to stay and bench.

[Massman]

One thing i would really like to see on the ambient/extreme cooling split.

Rather then only the best score count and the other getting zero points, what about each person having an Extreme rating and an Ambient rating?

 

Hm, maybe it's a bit unclear how user rankings and team rankings work exactly.

 

In the user rankings, everyone will still get a ranking. No matter how much team members have submitted in the league, your best score will still receive a ranking/points.

 

The team rankings will be a lot like this month's september challenge, both in terms of concept as visualisation. So, if you put up a new team's high, your entry will not be seen as 'user for team' but really 'team score'. The idea is to have two separate rankings for user and teams, and both having their own weight count (the more teams participate, the more weight).

 

I like all of those ideas

 

We all know that benching with free hardware is entirely different to benching with hardware we've bought. Its much easier to jack up the vTT on a free CPU, knowing that it doesn't *really* matter if it dies. Its easy to thrash hell out of the vGDDR on a free GPU- we didnt pay £400 for it......

 

I do believe the heavily supported guys should be split off. Can separate it into 2D and 3D as well if you can figure out how to apply the points.

 

The problem is knowing whos getting what in terms of sponsorship/ support/etc

 

First of all, it's not always easier to bench with free gear. Yes, it is if you go to public live events, but when you receive something at home manufacturers (marketing people who send you stuff) expect it to be alive after the session. Kill too much free gear and you'll not get any in the future.

 

Secondly, in no way we attempt to regulate hardware flow from manufacturers to the community. This means that we're not going to check up closely on what's sent and what's not; or, in other words, MFCs can still send some board to an XOL guy. The UFL was made to force the corporate overclockers into a different league as well as give those people who have great access to join in there as well.

 

If this is indeed the future of hwbot, whats the point of teams then? Wouldn't everyone make their own person team with one person? It would just break the reason for having a TEAM. People wouldn't share secrets with their teammates anymore so they can stay at the top of the team ranking, etc.

 

A single-person team will not be effective. Unless you're benching in all imaginable categories yourself ...

 

Yeah and right now less expensive hardware is still getting tons of points as it is, based on its popularity. Ppl who cant afford brand new gpu, can buy a 3870 or 8800gtx and get as many points as the new hardware. This argument does not hold water to me. You already stated hwpoint limit increased, so the people who cant afford new stuff are already being given a bonus.

 

As many points as possible = 300, in the current design.

 

High-end new hardware = less people; mainstream older hardware = more people. We want more people to be able to compete at the top of the ranking (or sub-top), not less.

 

Is it wrong to make two changes to support the same concept? Is it only allowed to make one change?

 

Yeah or companies inviting status quo every year and not holding a qualifier to let new faces into the game.

 

Obviously that's something we don't support ... no idea why you'd hold that against us.

 

What do you guys not like about hardware sharing anyway? Only reasons I can see against it are a) some whiny guy doesn't get to borrow it and complains or b) hwbot wants you to buy more hardware instead of making efficient use of a team's resources.

 

Try to understand how rankings work currently and you'll see that loopholing rules is too beneficial.

 

There's a reason why this hardware sharing topic is being brought up so many times.

 

With the new Rev. the little overclocker und little teams are asskicked.

 

Incorrect.

 

The small teams with good scores all across the board will be able to compete with huge teams that have average scores across the board.

 

the new bot helps only persons are sponsored by companies and manufacturer to present the power

 

Okay ...

 

Hey masseyman

 

You can only be in one of the three leagues....yes/no

 

No matter what league you're in, you are part of the leader board.....yes/no

 

Hardware points that count to your total is going up from 300...yes/no

If yes, by how much are you thinking ?

 

Only best Global scores out of all team members helps the Team.

But does all the hardware scores help the team. ie: team has five of the top ten scores with a 7900GTX in 3D03. Do all five scores count to the team total......yes/no

 

1) No. If you're UFL, you cannot be XOL/EL. People who are not UFL have an XOL and EL ranking.

 

2) Yes, you're always part of a leaderboard

 

3) Yes. I cannot give a fixed number as of now. We're also considering to change the current 'you have to compete in all benchmarks' to 'your X best submissions count to personal total', which probably affects the balance as well.

 

4) No. Not in the new design. What does help is, however, to have multiple people pushing in different hw rankings with the same card. Eg: one does 01, another one pushes for Vantage etc. It also helps if more than one person has a 7900GTX, so people can share findings how to increase the score or try to beat each other to improve the team score.

 

Trust in your members. Cheating may be an issue, it is pretty obvious who does it. Those that scream about cheating from others first and foremost, and those that have money to gain by the change.

 

The issue is that MEMBERS don't trust MEMBERS and expect us to clean up everything they consider cheating.

 

Pretty obvious has never been a valid criteria for removing results due to hardware sharing. That is the whole issue ... if people accuse others of sharing, everything must be removed ASAP, but if they get accused themselves it's as if the whole world is against them .

 

This would severely stunt team growth, as stated many times before. Once a guy with sub-zero cooling gets his hands on all the hardware, then his points = the team points. So, anyone else is required to have sub-zero cooling to contribute to the team. This means hardly anyone new will ever join a team, and all the ambient cooling guys might as well just leave the team and start their own since they can't contribute anymore.

 

This is a valid point. One thing we were playing with (concept) was to have a similar split up for teams as we had for users where one team has both an Xtreme part and an ambient part. This situation is a bit more complex coding-wise, but not completely undoable.

 

Another idea would be to have subteams and larger 'mother' teams. This would be the opposite of the current strategy of having one huge team and trying to enlist as many people as possible. Something like:

 

- OC Forums

-- OC Forums LN2 Boys

-- OC Forums "we don't need no liquid nitrogen"

-- OC Forums "I like them old and cheap"

 

But that makes things more complicated as well.

[Antinomy]

Massman, I can say that I like the direction were the HWBot staff is going. There are many doubtful things. But the idea about one best result per team is nice, I've rechecked this a week ago.

 

For those who say that it kills small teams - not it's not. It hurts big team much more - the ones having dozens of same videocards and one not having them The new rules encourage to use not only the popular hardware but the rare one too. This will discourage newcomers - as we've all started benching from our own computer it's likely that a team won't gain much from a newcomer - if the hardware is popular it's very likely already been benched and no improvement can be done (because of the low skill of a newbie).

 

As for the temperature and frequency limits - I'd start to consider them seriously when there are tools to control both.

 

Anyway - I love you guys doing hard work on burning your brains thinking how to make things better but not screwing them.

One tip - don't go too far in making algorithms more complicated. If it takes a cup or two of coffee to understand them - it's one thing. If, as we say, "you can't get it without half a litre" (meaning vodka) - it's not attractive.

[Maxi]

Voting doesn't always work. Just think about the fact that a lot of our members don't really have a good understanding of english and might not be able to understand the question correctly.

 

And forget the people who understand perfectly what's going on. I love this logic, hwbot throws voting out the window because a few stray people 'may' not grasp the concept. Maybe I should report my Korean neighbor next time ballots arrive.

 

I fully believe HWB staff did discuss this before you posted.... i'm surprised that some of the plans for Rev4 got as far as this.

 

One would think that would be the case, and one would also be wrong.

[Massman]

Just a random thought:

 

How would you guys feel to have a similar league for Teams as there is Hardware Masters for users? A league that only takes hardware points into account, where people can push the team forward even if they don't have anything near the best hardware. Only hardware points as well ... not another 'latest greatest' league.

 

Main focus would still be the 'quality' league (as suggested in ppt), so this would be side-ranking for HWBOT, but probably main ranking for a lot of people?

[Deanzo]

Do I read this right...

 

Participants of this league can still join online/live competitions, however will not be eligible for receiving prizes

 

If you see yourself as UFL

Hwbot is some how going to stop you from taking the prize home if you win first place in a live comp....ie: MOA, GOOC. Run by and paid for from someone other than hwbot, ie: MSI and Gigabyte

 

Also on that note, part of the prize is flights etc to the finals.

[Deanzo]

Still under discussion

 

*Allow UFL-members to support a team ?

 

Wow, with the two things above, why would anyone want to list themself as UFL.

 

I can see this becoming bigger than any hardware sharing accusations.

It will be..

"he shouldn't be in XOL, he should be in UFL"

[Bustah]

Alienation leads to separation, these ideas are bad imo. the community is speaking but not being heard. why on earth would any user be in a team when He cant contribute to the teams scores in whatever category? if johnny and mark each have a 5870 and belong to the same team johnny gets a better score because quite simply His card clocks better...mark still spent hundreds of dollars and spent countless hours trying to get a great score but his efforts are fruitless in terms of the team, mark now feels quite deflated because he was UNABLE to contribute to the team he love/d so much pre rev4.....but Mark can continue to add to his own total [outside of the team]....Johnny feels kind of good about himself because he got the best score, but feels kind of bad about his buddy mark who now benches mostly alone aside from the fact that it costs a small fortune to get together to bench.

 

this is how I envision the whole thing going if rev 4 is implemented. if this whole idea is about finance and getting money from corperations to keep hwbot alive, there has to be another way......after all corperate support is not what made hwbot in the first place the guys who spend countless hours benching did! please do not alienate these people for example saying something like we wont have a poll because some folk don't have a proper grasp of English is very patronising. Let the people decide.

 

I'm personally very saddened by these proposed changes and even more saddened that it looks like its already set in stone.

 

this is our proposal

give us your opinions

no you cant vote because a small minority may not fully grasp the English language?

eer so why are we discussing it?

why are we here? .....because we are not all there.

[der8auer]

Just a random thought:

 

How would you guys feel to have a similar league for Teams as there is Hardware Masters for users? A league that only takes hardware points into account, where people can push the team forward even if they don't have anything near the best hardware. Only hardware points as well ... not another 'latest greatest' league.

 

Main focus would still be the 'quality' league (as suggested in ppt), so this would be side-ranking for HWBOT, but probably main ranking for a lot of people?

 

Sounds good Just to make sure i understood that correct: It would be a league like the current just without the global points? Every point would count?

 

 

this is our proposal

give us your opinions

no you cant vote because a small minority may not fully grasp the English language?

eer so why are we discussing it?

why are we here? .....because we are not all there.

 

Haha nice words Agree on that!

[Massman]

If you see yourself as UFL

Hwbot is some how going to stop you from taking the prize home if you win first place in a live comp....ie: MOA, GOOC. Run by and paid for from someone other than hwbot, ie: MSI and Gigabyte

 

Also on that note, part of the prize is flights etc to the finals.

 

Sorry, you're right on that. I don't have powerpoint on this laptop, so couldn't change it.

 

The idea of not giving prizes to people who get hardware is similar to what GBT did in the H55N: it's already a prize that you get the free hardware to bench. People who spend money to buy the card should be the ones getting the prizes.

 

For MOA/GOOC there's no advantage of getting free hardware since everyone starts from the same level: hardware received on competition. Therefore, it's not problem for UFL to get prize money in that competition.

 

Sorry, I should've changed it .