HWBOT Rev.4 - The Plan.

[TaPaKaH]

Eg: the competitions playing a role in the point thing was not for manufacturers but a logical change (why would it not be fair to be rewarded to be in a worldwide final?).

Unfair because not everyone have equal chances of qualifying, only guys from countries with big enough sales (so that local gigabyte office, if it exists, can have profit in making the qualifiers)

[Mr.Scott]

Again, don't understand your logic.

If you want to solve that issue AND keep the manufacturers happy - create the UFL. Why does it have to come bundled with lots of other features that are not really necessary ?

Because it's part of the deal that the manufacturers got sold for their support.

[romdominance]

 

No.

 

There would be a paradox IF we'd start to reward people for not achieving the best result. What this concept is, however, is rewarding people for not choosing an 'easy' way (buy popular hardware) but support the team with different hardware. We reward the best result.

 

FYI, the concept of overclocking is not getting a reward. The concept of overclocking is having fun.

 

Hwbot is a overclocking league where people submit overclock results, these results are compared to results with identical hardware and the result is AWARDED points based on its standing both with that hardware and in the benchmark overall. The reward is the excitement you get from a smoking result and how many points you get for the work you have done as it compares to other's results. As soon as you remove the recognition for a job well done from peers and especially teammates, you will loose the support of the community. We will chose our team/family over the bot, I guarantee it. Implement this revision and see what happens.

[Bobnova]

Even then, good luck qualifying here in the US! Maybe if you can afford to fly 3k miles, happen to know someone in the office or are already in the top20.

There is no way in hell i could qualify from where i am right now, i'd have a much better chance of qualifying if i lived in a small country with a regional office.

 

If non-sponsor competitions counted then at least i could hit a local(ish) competition and get some comp. points that way. As it is i'm out of luck.

[Bobnova]

Hwbot is a overclocking league where people submit overclock results, these results are compared to results with identical hardware and the result is AWARDED points based on its standing both with that hardware and in the benchmark overall. The reward is the excitement you get from a smoking result and how many points you get for the work you have done as it compares to other's results. As soon as you remove the recognition for a job well done from peers and especially teammates, you will loose the support of the community. We will chose our team/family over the bot, I guarantee it. Implement this revision and see what happens.

 

 

Individuals would still be rewarded. The TEAM wouldn't be rewarded with points, but YOU would.

 

 

EDIT:

To be fair about the sponsor thing, I would almost certainly aim to get cash to pay for the site and/or my efforts too. Doesn't mean that i like that it happens, but i would do the same thing.

Edited September 18, 2010 by Bobnova

[rickss69]

Here is a perfect example of what a Family/Team is all about... http://www.overclockaholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3226

[der8auer]

Voting doesn't always work. Just think about the fact that a lot of our members don't really have a good understanding of english and might not be able to understand the question correctly.

 

FYI, you guys do realize that this team-thing has been discussed within HWBOT as well, right? It's not as if this thing was just written and posted .

 

It's actually the best way to solve hardware sharing, which is one of the biggest sources of discussion in the last couple of months. It's also one of the very few workable solutions that doesn't require pictures, videos and bank receipts as validation. I am open for all suggestions on this topic (apart from the "change back to rev2" ) ... I'd really like to have less cheat accusations.

 

Thanks!

 

@ Vote thing: Yea but it shows a direction how the hwbot community would like hwbot. It takes 2mins of time to create a poll. So why not?

 

You're right - it's a way to solve hardware sharing. But it only avoids sharing for Teams-Total and not the personal score. It just prevents a part of hardware sharing for a very high price. I doubt that there is such a huge amount of ppl sharing hardware for Teams-Total. We've got 26000 members in here and i think only few of them are sharing hardware. But this solution will affect everyone and a lot of them in a bad way. The price for this small victory is just to high.

We all want to have less cheat accusations but this is a wrong way.

[Mafio]

Thanks!

 

@ Vote thing: Yea but it shows a direction how the hwbot community would like hwbot. It takes 2mins of time to create a poll. So why not?

 

You're right - it's a way to solve hardware sharing. But it only avoids sharing for Teams-Total and not the personal score. It just prevents a part of hardware sharing for a very high price. I doubt that there is such a huge amount of ppl sharing hardware for Teams-Total. We've got 26000 members in here and i think only few of them are sharing hardware. But this solution will affect everyone and a lot of them in a bad way. The price for this small victory is just to high.

We all want to have less cheat accusations but this is a wrong way.

 

completly agree with you

[zoro]

i suspect that this (team point system) will encourage for smaller teams to be at first place.

it won't matter how many individuals the team has but how many different category results has

and of course how many great overclockers.

For example think of AY to be a team on his own (when and if he returns)

Another thing about HW sharing. There is no way to even reduce it, it is up to the good will of the participants.

For some, the personal score is even more important than the team score

Edited September 18, 2010 by zoro

[Massman]

Again, don't understand your logic.

If you want to solve that issue AND keep the manufacturers happy - create the UFL. Why does it have to come bundled with lots of other features that are not really necessary ?

 

Because it's part of the concept.

 

XOL = normal guy's overclocking league. The idea is that it should be possible to compete at a high level because of skill and not because of financial possibilities. Eg: hardware points become more important. Also, we always try to make using loopholes as little beneficial as possible: if UFL is here, then XOL must not be interesting for the manufacturers. If XOL is the same concept as UFL, then why would they bother to push for UFL?

 

So, change XOL a bit to make it less interesting for MFC, but more interesting for the common overclocker (reduce entry cost). But those changes also come with side-effects. Etc.

 

Change comes in large shape, because it needs to fit the entire concept. Just splitting up is not enough

 

Finally it comes to the front.

 

I look at it from the perspective here in the United States currently. We made a mistake voting in the current administration which will be corrected in the next voting cycle. We do not withdraw support because we do not favor the current direction we are being herded in...we simply correct the problem as soon as possible. To go against the majority is frought with perils....

 

As a US citizen, you are by law obliged to pay taxes even if you don't like the direction in which the government is moving. With users supporting hwbot, this is not a the case. The income is not secure.

 

Also, and I've said this from the beginning, I don't see why end-users must pay both for the hardware and the marketing (MFC will use good OC results as marketing, no matter what). Let users buy hardware, MFCs can take care of the development ... that's a fair solution.

 

Unfair because not everyone have equal chances of qualifying, only guys from countries with big enough sales (so that local gigabyte office, if it exists, can have profit in making the qualifiers)

 

Unfair is a difficult topic. It's also unfair that you can get hardware a lot cheaper than someone else. Or LN2 a lot cheaper.

 

The idea here is that things move in a right direction (eg: we managed to get Slovenia in the GOOC online qualifiers), not in an even worse direction. That's also why it's more important to embrace manufacturers than to ignore them.

[Leeghoofd]

Ow boy, here we go again...

 

So many negative thoughts again, feels like a rev 3 revisited. Everybody was digusted then and wickedly enough most are happy now and are living with it.

 

Explain me how eg a team with only 5 members can ever achieve anything ( even though all bench on LN2 ? ) The teams with the most members, messing with the high end hardware are always on top...

 

Don't talk about benching solely for the team... some are holier then the pope here lol. Being in a team is sharing ideas, if possible bench together, learn form eachother... Whatever you do, you'll always contribute to the team and people will appreciate your efforts.

 

Contributing is not only expressed in points lads...

 

I do NOT agree with all the new stuff Rev 4 brings, but I think it will bring the teams closer, thus the rankings will get more competitive... If Rev4 sees the daylight, it's not anymore who's got the most members with a GTX480 or sortlike superexpensive hardware. Being it shared or not...

 

Rev3 already made a lot of people hunt Ebay and co for older generation cards/CPU's. Far less expensive, still some solid points for the team and individual rankings. And still OC'ing at a high fun level...

 

I agree with Chew on the new competiviness it will bring. The new user rankings might be fun to watch too. And yes it will motivate people to continu benching. How would you feel if you only got a H2O setup to compete with the LN2 crazy benchers out there...

 

So as devoted as some sound, you still quit just like that... darn you are very good TEAM member to have onboard...

 

Just wait how it will develop, I think some brains have already had many sleepless nites due to this new Rev... and I don't think they will do it to fill their own pockets... Just give it a chance...

[K404]

If XOL is of less interest to companies, how are the participants of XOL gather the support to move to UFL?

[McZonk]

Thanks!

 

@ Vote thing: Yea but it shows a direction how the hwbot community would like hwbot. It takes 2mins of time to create a poll. So why not?

 

You're right - it's a way to solve hardware sharing. But it only avoids sharing for Teams-Total and not the personal score. It just prevents a part of hardware sharing for a very high price. I doubt that there is such a huge amount of ppl sharing hardware for Teams-Total. We've got 26000 members in here and i think only few of them are sharing hardware. But this solution will affect everyone and a lot of them in a bad way. The price for this small victory is just to high.

We all want to have less cheat accusations but this is a wrong way.

 

Full Acknowledge.

 

I think the community should be polled. A quickpoll is a thing of 3 mins and gives you (@massman) a precise estimation where your (!) community stands.

[MattNo5ss]

Did you forget to reply to my comment? You replied to Sam's and rick's. I'd like know if you see my point of view.

[K404]

Al.... you're miles off

 

 

The teams with the most members, messing with the high end hardware are always on top...

 

The teams on top are the teams with people who bench in a lot of categories. Why do you keep listing top-end 3D benching as the way to the top? It's not. PURE is the best example. Fantastic benchers, but global results are not the sustainable way to No.1

 

 

How would you feel if you only got a H2O setup to compete with the LN2 crazy benchers out there...

 

Thats easy... i'd feel better if I was benching in Rev 3, because i'd get SOMETHING out of it

[rickss69]

"Explain me how eg a team with only 5 members can ever achieve anything ( even though all bench on LN2 ? ) The teams with the most members, messing with the high end hardware are always on top..."

 

Not true at all. I cite NBOC and Overclocking Alliance as an example...we, as a small group managed big things way back when and to this day. Dedication and purpose.

[M.Beier]

I strongly dislike this... I think there is no reasonably excuse for me being below HiCookie, as I drink more beer then him... Why has beer not been integrated in teh new revision?

Also I think this flaw can only be justified with letting Massman run down Champs Elysees wearing a mankini, pink, and with two flashing led-bords, one at chest, other on butt, saying "Hwbot failed with rev4"

 

Just my opinion!

[[GF]Duke]

So i get kicked in the teeth because i can afford to buy the newest hardware and Joe down the street can't. Thats pretty much whats happening in my eyes. Nothing like getting boned because you can and someone else can't. It's like kiddi baseball. No one wins and no one looses. whats the sense of playing.

[Massman]

If XOL is of less interest to companies, how are the participants of XOL gather the support to move to UFL?

 

Sorry, I don't have an FAQ for this.

 

But ... wait. At the moment people are bitching about having to fight against corporate/super-seeded overclockers ("common man cannot win") and now you're asking me how you can join the one league with corporate overclockers and super-seeded people?

 

Full Acknowledge.

 

I think the community should be polled. A quickpoll is a thing of 3 mins and gives you (@massman) a precise estimation where your (!) community stands.

 

Not precise.

 

Polls hardly ever reach over 200 votes here on the HWBOT forums. That's not nearly a precise estimation of the entire HWBOT community.

 

Did you forget to reply to my comment? You replied to Sam's and rick's. I'd like know if you see my point of view.

 

Yeah sorry, I had it quoted, but looked over it when writing the reply. I'll do it later today as local clock is showing 4AM here (dedication or idiocy? )

[Leeghoofd]

I just state that as an example Kenny... I've witnessed team(s) with a lot of GTX480/5870 scores just rocketing into the top 20... why ? coz they have the toys... I might have badly expressed myself with calling the top teams... ( to me that that's top 15 lol ) it seems I've hit a few nerves there

 

Your scores will still be on top Kenny in Rev4, Also for your team. But for future team purposes you just have to approach it in another way. See which member has got which card and what's he planning to do with it... Maybe you got the same card, a better one and can improve on his scores. For individual purpopes just continue what you are doing right now...

 

So i get kicked in the teeth because i can afford to buy the newest hardware and Joe down the street can't. Thats pretty much whats happening in my eyes. Nothing like getting boned because you can and someone else can't. It's like kiddi baseball. No one wins and no one looses. whats the sense of playing.

 

Why is that ? You still get mucho points for it, the team however will only benefit from the best score on that particular hardware...

 

With this reply, you are proving my previous claims exactly. Don't you get it ?

 

I strongly dislike this... I think there is no reasonably excuse for me being below HiCookie, as I drink more beer then him... Why has beer not been integrated in teh new revision?

Also I think this flaw can only be justified with letting Massman run down Champs Elysees wearing a mankini, pink, and with two flashing led-bords, one at chest, other on butt, saying "Hwbot failed with rev4"

 

Just my opinion!

 

you will never have your sexual fantasies fulfilled Marc, you sicko !!

Edited September 18, 2010 by Leeghoofd

[Massman]

I strongly dislike this... I think there is no reasonably excuse for me being below HiCookie, as I drink more beer then him... Why has beer not been integrated in teh new revision?

Also I think this flaw can only be justified with letting Massman run down Champs Elysees wearing a mankini, pink, and with two flashing led-bords, one at chest, other on butt, saying "Hwbot failed with rev4"

 

Just my opinion!

 

-ignore-

 

Duke;71263']So i get kicked in the teeth because i can afford to buy the newest hardware and Joe down the street can't. Thats pretty much whats happening in my eyes. Nothing like getting boned because you can and someone else can't. It's like kiddi baseball. No one wins and no one looses. whats the sense of playing.

 

The world is bigger than EU and USA. South-America has a very strong overclocking community, but hardware is extremely expensive ... I really don't understand why you should be having a higher rank just because you are able to buy high-end stuff.

 

Regardless of the amount of money it costs to compete, with skill and effort you can always play. GTX480 or HD4670 ...

[rickss69]

"As a US citizen, you are by law obliged to pay taxes even if you don't like the direction in which the government is moving. With users supporting hwbot, this is not a the case. The income is not secure.

 

Also, and I've said this from the beginning, I don't see why end-users must pay both for the hardware and the marketing (MFC will use good OC results as marketing, no matter what). Let users buy hardware, MFCs can take care of the development ... that's a fair solution."

 

If you want secure how about only supporter's participate in the bot? That will quickly cut down the workload, eh? With all this dissent I think the "fair solution" really lies in the hands of the members.

[M.Beier]

ok ok, a bit more serious post...

 

Lets compare this to motorsport for a moment... (A compare many does when explaining why they like to overclock...)

 

There are different types of race, different classes....

Consider HWbot being a mix of Formula 1 and Le mans...

 

Le Mans with many classes (4?), like there is different hardware classes, amount of GPUs etc....

Formula#1, rules being changed every year...

 

I dont really see the big deal.... Why bother whining about a change in rule, fact is, you, me, everyone will manage to adapt.... Cut the crap and just let it be....

I admire hwbot for keep head high and keep being innovative and creative.....

 

Finally,

Thanks Pieter, honestly thought you noticed when I was just messing around

[K404]

 

But ... wait. At the moment people are bitching about having to fight against corporate/super-seeded overclockers ("common man cannot win") and now you're asking me how you can join the one league with corporate overclockers and super-seeded people?

 

 

Well..... yes. At the moment, its entirely open. THe super-supported are at the top. Anyone with some proof of skill can approach a company and ask for at least *some* of the hardware to rise up the ranks. These are the normal guys currently paying for all/the vast majority of their gear

 

If you put the same guys in a different league to the super-supported and tell companies not to look at the lower league, how can they progress?

 

I do not think the guys who get everything for free should be in the same leaderboard as the guy who survives on bread + water to buy a card + LN2, but if someone wants a shot at being at the top, there has to be an open and equal way for them to have that chance. To what extent do you want to divert company attention away from the XOL?

 

 

 

 

Al..... I had a quick think earlier. Yea, GPU my scores are, as they stand, almost entirely unscathed. My CPU work will take a hit. Im not against this for my own benefit, I really dont think this is the best way forward for the hobby.

 

I *do* think Benchtec members will lose a lot of points, as will every other team. I have no clue how a revised leaderboard would look but still.... see my reasons above.

 

I want the hobby to flourish. I dont think this is going to help

[Massman]

If you want secure how about only supporter's participate in the bot? That will quickly cut down the workload, eh? With all this dissent I think the "fair solution" really lies in the hands of the members.

 

You can only play if you pay?

 

I remember very well that in the first meeting about HWBOT, when Frederik said that he was not able to pay me more than legal minimum wage, I said to him: "I don't really care about how much I make - as long as the community will never have to pay for HWBOT I'm down with it".

 

I still stand for that.