Opinion needed: Ideas for next HWBOT revision

[Wizerty]

Roman, Daniel, Allen, Michael, Hazzan and all the others. When they started with XOC or just OC itself, had they ever thinking about binning? I guess no, its all part of the progress and evolve as overclocker himself.

 

AMEN....

 

Thanks for this.

 

-------------

 

I can't be first, please make a league for ambient cooling

I can't be first after one month on HwBot, please make a league for rookie

I can't be first, please kick the n°1 out of my league

 

What next ? I can't be first because some guys push Vcore too high and I don't want to kill my hardware, please make a league for user between 20°c and 40° and with Vcore lower than 1.35v and please be sure they use potatoes chip with stock OS, no tweak....

 

I can't believe it.

Guys it's a ranking, if you are not first, then someone is probably better than you, deal with it. Try to push harder, learn tweak....and you will be first someday.

[brice28]

Because these are enthusiast competitions - you drive f3, you do not get higher payment than f1 driver.. I think this is quite simple.

 

So issue it's not user themself, but people who sponsor.

 

But still same, if sponsor want paid same for both category, wasn't their own choice ?

 

I thinks all know the risk, but yes you can encourage them to create highest gap

or provide lowest but more price for enthusiast.

 

(10 win instead of 3/4, 3/4 + 5 lucky .... so much possibility for same budget)

[websmile]

@Elkim No way we can verify the rig and cooling used atm - I have for example two Impact 7 boards, what should stop me from submitting even a real time picture of system in use with air cooling while I bench LN2 on second?^^

@Wizerty Ranking is no big problem for me and also in general, I benched with more fun when Hwbot didn´t even had an Enthusiast league but all competed in one league. Lot of people here said "keep it simple" and personally I agree on this, despite seeing the advantages league splits have. It is also not about persons, it is about the system of rewards when we have to rely on honesty at cooling used and also see it is less effort financially than buying LN2 for example. You know that EL is never full out^^

@GeorgeStorm Hwbot and also vendors already did this partly, but it is the accumulation that causes the problem, this is why we consider a seasons cap for competitions that do not involve extreme cooling allowed. I think I stated the reasons above.

The thread is a brainstorm, as said opinions are welcome because we (and this includes me^^) want to find solutions that are approved by the majority, I do not want to enforce my look on things here. But the staff gets tons of feedback also in personal contacts that you never see here at the forums or discussions, we observe also the numbers of entries at competitions and so on. You can believe that we do not propose changes because we are bored

 

P.S. Brice28, saw your post after mine, but I hope I partly answered your question as well. The accumulation is the main problem

Edited April 21, 2016 by websmile

[brice28]

P.S. Brice28, saw your post after mine, but I hope I partly answered your question as well. The accumulation is the main problem

 

I count : 2 for GB (1 winter, 1 march) , 1 for Asus (Running UP on 3 round) and 1 for MSI (2D+3D)

 

And you plan to limit on 3 contest, i didn't get it or you plan to limited in 3 round.

In case or it's really accumulation it's issue, limited them to only One Top 3.

 

But i still thinks it'll deserve our sport, because i guess we all are here for push the limite and increase our skill. Nobody will overpush himself if it's not needed.

[Elkim]

Nobody will overpush himself if it's not needed.

 

 

Say that to all those dead IGP's died just while ago.

 

@websmile Ok, man. As I said before this, if someone doesn't come with any brilliant idea, just leave the cooling verification alone.

 

People complaining about guys binning chips, but they do the same in lesser scale in Enthusiastic league.

[websmile]

I count : 2 for GB (1 winter, 1 march) , 1 for Asus (Running UP on 3 round) and 1 for MSI (2D+3D)

 

And you plan to limit on 3 contest, i didn't get it or you plan to limited in 3 round.

In case or it's really accumulation it's issue, limited them to only One Top 3.

 

But i still thinks it'll deserve our sport, because i guess we all are here for push the limite and increase our skill. Nobody will overpush himself if it's not needed.

 

We had around 10 ambient contests with prices in 2015, each Formula ROG round was standalone with prices, MSI and Gigabyte did as well(GA 5 comps with prices, MSI 2, and this is only what I remember at first try), ROG camp and one or two more

 

@Elkim agree on the binning, sometimes people are only angry because they bin 20 chips less than guy next door -on the verification... well, at the moment it is the way it is. For me personally this is not the biggest problem, I believe in benchers honesty, but we always get tons of troubles and quarrel because we cannot verify this 100%

Edited April 21, 2016 by websmile

[Elkim]

@websmile

 

Even less, guys buys 4 TX at the release, adjust a clock on air a bit and thats the way how to rule Enthusiast ladder (not much but still giving the points). And I'am sure that some of them just wont enter extreme/elite, because they wouldnt be at first places suddenly Hows that different in matter of budget from a real PRO OC with hard approach who buys 10 boxes of 6700k, keep best one, sold rest and rebuy? I'am not there personally, I hope I will and I see it as part of today overclocking:)

Edited April 21, 2016 by Elkim

[der8auer]

I personally consider myself very professional in the attitude I approach benching, but I do not chase money, sponsorships or whatever else.

 

Flip the coin.

Dancop ( an example ) is a professional by the meaning of earning money.

Yes, he has the knowledge, the skills, the passion, but it is clear he does it

for financial reasons.

 

 

What does this tell us ?

HE IS the pro, by the money definition.

He is here and lives here only to steal in an expert way, under covered, all

the prizes in the ambient competitions.

 

All in all.

Do whatever you like.

Allen does not care, Tobias does not care and even I do not care.

 

But think of the youngsters.

The more confusing, the more deterring.

 

George over and out, as we said in the army:)

 

I don't want to sound arrogant or anything like that but if someone doesn't have the money or is not willing to spend money - too bad.

Might sound harsh but in the end overclocking is a technical sport (if you want to use the term sport). Everything in this hobby is about money and there is no way around it. There is no way someone can be first without investing a incredible amount of time and money.

 

I know Daniel very well. He is not a rich guy or anything like that. He has 3 kids and a wife and his salary is for the whole family. So it's not like he is living an easy life. The point is that he is willing to spend everything he has left on overclocking and nothing else. And I'm talking even more about time and dedication than money.

 

I have almost unlimited resources at Caseking but where am I in the ranking? I'm not saying it would be easy to beat Daniel even with unlimited resources, but he just has so much more dedication to benching than I have. So it's not only the money part that matters.

 

^^^^^^^^^^^^

Correct.

But there is a small problem here.

I can't buy retail LN2 where I live Roman.

My next best option, coming up by the way, is DICE.

 

Now, where should I belong ?

And what chances do I have to compete LN2 guys ? ZERO

 

But we can't change the whole ranking because you can't get LN2, no? I also overclocked a long time with DICE before I started with serious LN2 benching.

 

 

The better example is Roman, but I don't think, that the fact he is making money is the main thing. He is just that good, that he managed to turn his hobby to also earning the money for the living. Also, I don't know him that good either, so I can't say really.

 

Roman, Daniel, Allen, Michael, Hazzan and all the others. When they started with XOC or just OC itself, had they ever thinking about binning? I guess no, its all part of the progress and evolve as overclocker himself.

 

You also have to know that it's not my main job to overclock with LN2. I overclock few days per month - not more. My main job is product development which is also related to my LN2 containers I did in the past and ofc my engineering degree.

 

Back in ~2007 people binned less but it already started and it's a natural evolution like you said. If there is a way to do something better, people will do it. Especially overclockers are really mad when it comes to any kind of optimization

 

 

 

I can't be first, please make a league for ambient cooling

I can't be first after one month on HwBot, please make a league for rookie

I can't be first, please kick the n°1 out of my league

 

What next ? I can't be first because some guys push Vcore too high and I don't want to kill my hardware, please make a league for user between 20°c and 40° and with Vcore lower than 1.35v and please be sure they use potatoes chip with stock OS, no tweak....

 

I can't believe it.

Guys it's a ranking, if you are not first, then someone is probably better than you, deal with it. Try to push harder, learn tweak....and you will be first someday.

 

I have to agree with you. Back in the days we were fighting against Andre Yang. Someone who has more money than the whole Top 20 combined haha. But people didn't complain as bad as today.

[Elkim]

You also have to know that it's not my main job to overclock with LN2. I overclock few days per month - not more. My main job is product development which is also related to my LN2 containers I did in the past and ofc my engineering degree.

 

I guess only Vince has LN2 for daily bread But still, you got your degree, but you could create whatever else with it not related to XOC. The beauty comes when the hobby returns the time, effort, dedication and money you put it and it gives you back, even if small portion of it.

 

I resell HW, which is part of my living and because I like HW, It feels good. What feels even better is, that I did some delids, OC tuning and other OC stuff related and I get paid for it. I have family too so my hobby comes in second, but if my hobby can pay for it itself, its awesome, even in small scale case like mine.

 

I think that earning money by binning while looking for golden jewel is awesome I hope, that one day will come, and if someone ask some of us, what do we do for living, we say "Pouring liquid nitrogen in computer, mate" and wait for the wtf look

And if and when it happens, the HWBOT will have significant role in the whole thing So lets do it right

Edited April 21, 2016 by Elkim

[Alex@ro]

I was thinking today of what Einstein said that doind repeated stuff same time (e.g binning cpu's ) and expecting different results(e.g find a golden cpu) is madness. I could not help but think that is so damn right regarding overclocking too,more now than ever . As i said i binned over 50 cpu's to find my golden one and i am not in the position to do that comfortably,e.g get 2 pieces,sell fast,get other,etc,lot of effort,some money wasted,time ,etc.

 

Sadly i look now and see that even if i score good i can't beat the nr1 since i did not find the platinum chip,gold is not enough

 

So,today i've reached the conclusion that all this effort i did and will do some time from now on is just to feed my passion and i see no profit in long run , only some partial cover of losses and anyone who believes top guys make great money on this is wrong . Those being said i think this has to be viewed solely as a hobby such as collecting stamps rather than trying to be a pro and hoping to get money out of it==>this won't happen,and pro's in this area do not make big bucks like other activities ...

 

To add something to the topic,keep it as simple as it can be done,more simple==>more guys will do it==>more audience==>more money invested in competitions(probably) .

[funsoul]

Why would people in the 'ranked' league not be entitled to get TopX WRP? Doesn't seem to make any sense to remove the goal of being able to get a world record submission for anyone other than pros.

[techjesse]

This is a sport not an hobby

 

Sport: An activity involving skill that is governed by a set of rules or customs and often undertaken competitively.

[zeropluszero]

wrong.

This is a hobby, not a sport.

[techjesse]

wrong.

This is a hobby, not a sport.

 

WRONG, When people see it as a Sport than it will gain much more attention than ever before.

 

This is a sport not an hobby

 

Sport: An activity involving skill that is governed by a set of rules or customs and often undertaken competitively.

[Mr.Scott]

WRONG, When people see it as a Sport than it will gain much more attention than ever before.

 

No......... it won't.

Because it will NEVER be seen as a sport.

The peak for attention has already passed.

There is no real need for overclocking any more. Hardware is plenty fast for anything now. You forget, or never really knew why people overclocked to start with.

People overclock now because they did before or because they're interested as an electronics experiment or hobby.

Gamers don't even overclock any more because their bunnyextraction is fast enough now. Faster than the eye can see and the mind can comprehend. There is no need for it now.

How do you promote something that there is no need for and that less than 1% actually participate in as a "sport"?

Edited April 21, 2016 by Mr.Scott

[Guest george.kokovinis]

No......... it won't.

Because it will NEVER be seen as a sport.

The peak for attention has already passed.

There is no real need for overclocking any more. Hardware is plenty fast for anything now. You forget, or never really knew why people overclocked to start with.

People overclock now because they did before or because they're interested as an electronics experiment or hobby.

Gamers don't even overclock any more because their bunnyextraction is fast enough now. Faster than the eye can see and the mind can comprehend. There is no need for it now.

How do you promote something that there is no need for and that less than 1% actually participate in as a "sport"?

 

Very well said Captain

[techjesse]

Your Opinion is much different than most I talk with, competitive benchmarking (someday) will become an great Olympic Sport. All the schools across this nation (USA) will have class's on the "How To" and an Olympic Sport will be formed. Technological Science demand's it.

[Guest george.kokovinis]

Well...

 

With all respect, technological science demands about 1 million things to be solved, before turning an eye to a meaningless hobby.

It is more important to turn other less meaningless hobbies into sport and attract social attention, than this one.

 

But of course everyone is entitled to his opinion, however rational or irrational it may be.

[Mr.Scott]

Your Opinion is much different than most I talk with, competitive benchmarking (someday) will become an great Olympic Sport. All the schools across this nation (USA) will have class's on the "How To" and an Olympic Sport will be formed. Technological Science demand's it.

You are misguided. Technological Science is concentrating on robotics. Every Uni worth anything now has a competitive robotics team. Is that a "sport"? No.

Will it ever be? Probably not.

How about RC racing? Those guys spend countless dollars on hardware and tweaking for their competitive meets, and there is skill involved. Is that a "sport"? No. Competitive hobby maybe.....just like overclocking.

[speed.fastest]

Maybe to make it simple, dont make a competition with cooling limiter, but clock limiting is good idea, just make it sure the competition is for non pro or pro allowed. For league, for me Elite, Extreme (Sub Ambient & Zero Cooling) & Enthusiast League (Stock, Air, Water, Custom Water) is enough, don't need to make new league. This is make people to do their best, because too long in Enthusiast League in HWBot is not a good idea, this is the place that extreme is common & normal. But that just my two cents.

[funsoul]

No comment on the sport vs hobby thing but not sure that peak attention has passed.

 

Am currently looking at applying overclocking to computing-centric activities in financial services (for example, algorithmic and arbitrage trading). A few percent increase in performance can lead to relatively significant economic gains. In general, I think that overclocking in the high-performance computing space is still fairly early days (after a number of starts and stops over the past few years).

 

At least I hope so anyway! Would be nice to combine my 'hobby/sport/timesink' and my profession.

[der8auer]

No......... it won't.

Because it will NEVER be seen as a sport.

The peak for attention has already passed.

There is no real need for overclocking any more. Hardware is plenty fast for anything now. You forget, or never really knew why people overclocked to start with.

People overclock now because they did before or because they're interested as an electronics experiment or hobby.

Gamers don't even overclock any more because their bunnyextraction is fast enough now. Faster than the eye can see and the mind can comprehend. There is no need for it now.

How do you promote something that there is no need for and that less than 1% actually participate in as a "sport"?

 

Just want to talk more about the "no need for OC anymore".

 

Working at Caseking we have a lot of customers asking for OC. The funny thing is that they always just ask for CPU OC. Nobody cares about GPU Overclocking. Which is funny considering that 99% of the games today are GPU limited.

It's even more funny when you take a look at the current hwbot situation. We know that the focus over the years went from multi GPU full-out to single GPU, to 2D. Kind of the opposite what you need for gaming.

[Splave]

I still like to think of OC as helping to push main stream computing higher. Do you know when we were at intel and we played with their CPUs and found the best clockers that they had they scanned them into the computer and went back and looked at what attributes allowed them to be better overclockers. I like to think that that has helped push clock frequencies in the main stream but maybe im wrong.

 

Anyways label it what you like. Arguments can go either way, its as much of a sport as gaming is Id say but its just harder to get to the top here with ln2 and sample accessibility. Its a mental sport not a physical one.

[Elkim]

Just want to talk more about the "no need for OC anymore".

 

Working at Caseking we have a lot of customers asking for OC. The funny thing is that they always just ask for CPU OC. Nobody cares about GPU Overclocking. Which is funny considering that 99% of the games today are GPU limited.

It's even more funny when you take a look at the current hwbot situation. We know that the focus over the years went from multi GPU full-out to single GPU, to 2D. Kind of the opposite what you need for gaming.

 

Actually, I think that OC can be sold. Also overclocker himself. Its just matter of how can you sell it, how can you sell yourself, bit of marketings skills and open-minded thinking. Lol, everything can be sold and may have use on the market, even the world's biggest bullshits. Why not OC? I'll be the freelance overclocker one day, thats what I have in my mind, and I kinda believe in that

[newlife]

I was unaware joking wasn't allowed on hwbot

 

I liked how hwbot was with rev 4 when i first started benching, now it just seems to be getting overly complicated trying to do the impossible and keep everyone happy