The line between ambient water and chilled/cold

[Fasttrack]

Ok, this is my take.

 

A/C in a room, no problem at all. Some of us have to deal with 25-30deg room temps with 70% humidity for 90% of the year. So having an air conditioned room to the usual competition idle temp range of 20 degree should be acceptable. I have the same problems that Ozzie pointed out.

 

This, this on the other hand is not acceptable. This is a chiller (copied from a members FB page)

 

 

This is a so called top 10 enthusiast idea of "watercooling". I pointed this picture out to the mods back last year during and after the MSI Ambient comp (what a nightmare that was) to show doubt that this particular contestant was playing by the rules. Nothing happened, then this guy finishes third and is the recipient of a 6950X, along with the other prizes. Warning bells for all when he was running 1.7v+ on "ambient" should have been a dead give away. At the time, I had tried to be diplomatic as I was in-line to benefit from his removal. This is where everything that is that league is just a damn mess. People play the rules and do well, only to continually be beaten by those that can "mask" or "interpret" the rules for their own personal gain. Ask me, I still and always will call for a ban hammer after that.

 

Lets not even bring up the other that used an Ice Bucket, then, allowed after to continue and also win that and following competitions without anyone blinking an eye. How the hell do we know that all the temps weren't faked after that, or still to this day.

 

Other examples showing up that are unclear on the cooling are still here too. Not all by enthusiasts, but still, it's just deceiving about what the cooling actually is. Especially when you know these are high-heat benchmarks and in some there is ridiculous amounts of core voltage present. If they just said or showed the full loop, there would be no problem at all.

 

SergeyR`s Geekbench3 - Multi Core score: 23951 points with a Core i7 7700K - 1.7v on water, suuuuuuuuuuure

 

jpmboy`s Geekbench3 - Multi Core score: 24324 points with a Core i7 7700K - 1.44v for 5600, 7700K on water in Geek3....pffft

 

jpmboy`s XTU score: 1947 marks with a Core i7 7700K - Same guy as above, lottery was strong here

 

kimandsally`s HWBOT x265 Benchmark - 1080p score: 44.2 fps with a Core i7 7700K - IC Diamond for cool temps my ASS

 

Could just keep going.

 

I purposely stayed out of the competitions after the MSI Competition due to being able to pick the top guys even before it began. Not particularly helpful to encouraging competition when the winners can already be picked before it starts.

 

 

Now, rant out of the way. To answer your question Elkim

 

(1) agree, cooling a room because you are in a hot climate is ambient, nothing wrong with that unless you use a cold room lol

 

(2) using an air conditioner or other method to mechanically cool your radiator or exchanger is 100% a chiller

 

(3) Open window or really cold tap water, tough one there. I would say Ambient for this league as much as it sucks for us in warmer climates. But, the way I look at the enthusiast league these days, nothing in the rankings matters anyway.

 

 

 

Sorry if I took things off on a tangent mate. And sorry to the mods for bringing that very dark time in your lives back up.

 

Some of you may remember me from my old account ( George.kokovinis ).

Two main reasons that I deleted that account :

 

1) High profile Elite members using servers that clearly do not belong to then but to the companies they work ( sponsored ) for

2) A total mess in the enthusiast division, where a real dogfighting from my side against

all the "fog" surrounding the cooling methods, brought no results to the table.

 

My friend Scotty ( Mr.Scott ), my captain in Warp9 back then, has summed up wisely

all this mess :

 

DONT BOTHER.

There is absolutely no way to verify the thin lines between what is ambient and what not.

NONE at all.

As he wisely pointed out, it is down to conscience, which seems to be a stupidity, rather than

a virtue, when benching ( especially for prizes ).

 

I have personally lost 4 competitions against NVF2, because he was out of line, cheating like hell.

1.7Volts on chilled water ( or ambient - for Heaven's sake ).

I do not dare to apply 1.7Volts under Dice at -75c.

Did it once for SPI32m. Never again.

 

People, it is really a waste of time to bother with such discussions.

 

I will use, again, the wise words of Mr.Scott.

Two categories :

1) Pros

2) All the rest.

 

Pros ( by definition ) are in a class of their own. Sponsors, support, funds, LN2 of course and a lot more.

 

All the rest.

Use whatever cooling you want.

You have to prove nothing to no one.

Each cooling method has its physical limits.

 

Air, water, chilled water, SS, Dice, cascade, LN2.

 

The very restrictions of cooling by itself, will impose the desired limits.

No reason to pretend, no reason to lie.

 

 

Nothing will change in the general rankings.

Only subdivisions will not have the pleasure to say " look, I am first in enthusiast ".

 

Stay cool and enjoy benching, instead of trying to prove something different than the truth.

 

Just my 0.02c

[Elkim]

 

jpmboy`s XTU score: 1947 marks with a Core i7 7700K - Same guy as above, lottery was strong here

 

 

This one is ^^. I just put best CPU I binned from 30 pieces in socket. Chip did 5.2/4.5 1.285V R15 without delid on AiO.

 

I need 1.6V on weak phase change (-43°C) to pass XTU on 5510MHz and have 50°C in XTU load....

Edited March 29, 2017 by Elkim

[suzuki]

Jmpboy uses chiller,something similar to hailea ,he posted in his pictures on a sub,but he is in elite league,why do you bother with this ?

Btw,my cpu in xtu at 1.43v doesn't pass 65 degrees with 2 radiators in custom loop at 20 degrees ambient so his result is believable,although i cannot achieve his frequency but i have better temps than him on normal wc.

 

There are many methods to cheat in enthusiast ,you just have to have imagination. :

Single stage cooling a wb or a radiator from the loop;

radiator in a bucket or hose directly in a bucket of ice;

 

Specific coolant put in the freezer at -20 degrees combined with ice .

 

Dry ice with alcohol and hose directly over there or radiator inside this.

 

-20-30 degrees ambient cooling with radiator in novosibirsk,alaska or even Romania it is possible during winter at -20.

 

You can put the whole unit outside in the cold,mouse and keyboard witeless/bluetooth and no worries.

This league is the shitiest and will always be.

Best sollution is not to be bothered by it,keep on going and let them be sattisfied about the results they obtained,it's like a "normal" person competes with people with disabilities and wins the prize,kudos for his conscience.

 

 

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[Elkim]

why do you bother with this ?

 

So maybe submit the result correctly as chilled/cold not water (custom)? If everybody doing this as they should, apprentice would be much larger and people who should not compete in ambient competitions doesnt steal chance from guys who play fair.

[suzuki]

In what ambient competition he participated ?

 

 

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[Elkim]

That doesn't matter, those options are not there as a joke lol...

[suzuki]

You saw that he is in "elite" league,right ?

So if the contest it is prohibited to apprentice will be prohibited to him as well.

I dunno the guy,but at least he puts the chiller in pics not like others who actually are in enthusiast and don't give a flying fuck.

 

 

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[Elkim]

jpmboy`s XTU score: 1947 marks with a Core i7 7700K

 

Where do you see chiller? Yes, he is elite so in specific way it doesnt really matter but it doesnt mean, he doesnt need to tag his results as chilled/watter.

 

Problem is as you say in enthusiast league where is obviously normal to run any kind of water chilling and act like its ambient water.

[jpmboy]

This one is ^^. I just put best CPU I binned from 30 pieces in socket. Chip did 5.2/4.5 1.285V R15 without delid on AiO.

 

I need 1.6V on phase change (-43°C) to pass XTU on 5510MHz and have 72°C in XTU load....

 

This is probably the only place folks living in tropical or warm climates can complain about something like weather and not get laughed at. Lol, advantage folks living in the cold north. No wonder our Canadian friends do so well.

 

Regarding my Xtu sub. What's the problem here? You can see the peak temperature on that delid cpu in the xtu screen shot. Look at some of my other subs with that cpu. It does 5.6 at under 1.5v. Not a golden cpu... platinum! Yeah, no binning. Bought retail from microcenter. Yes, i use aquarium chillers and a koolance exc800. Lowest coolant temp possible is around 10C...a warm day in some locations for ambient benching.

 

the class or league divisions may benefit from a rethinking... but not because a player can't manage their climate. About a futile as complaining that people are using cryogenics.

 

Water or chilled water, you cannot get even close to temps that affect the electrical properties of these components in the way cryogenics do. And unless your rig is going into orbit, can't do that any other way.

Jpm

[Elkim]

I don't have problems with climate, its spring here and temps are low, my SS is weak and I had Inferno plugged on. I also have 2x MORA 3 PRO with Mayhems XT1 on my terrace so water is very chilled during winter. Ok, maybe you have platinum CPU but your sub is tagged as water (custom), thats not what is OK, since you asked. Not that it changes anything in your case.

 

But enthusiast league is same of wrong submitting and that is wrong because alot of enthusiast league members should not be there, they should be in apprentice. That is the point.

[jpmboy]

That's a bot management call. I for one, never really understood the apprentice league, but that's irrelevant. :-)

 

Regarding the cpu... "every once in a while, a blind squirrel finds a nut."

Edited March 29, 2017 by jpmboy

[Splave]

hey jpmboy, do you use liquid metal ?

 

Liquid metal with some aquarium chillers is totally possible to get those results imo.

[Elkim]

Doesnt get it worse thermal transfer under certain temp? Grizzly says +10°C is max, so in IDLE the TIM layer might go south, at least thats why I never used it with chilled water.

[Splave]

I use conductonaut with single stage works great -48c or so

[Elkim]

Damn...ok I have to try then...

[jpmboy]

hey jpmboy, do you use liquid metal ?

 

Liquid metal with some aquarium chillers is totally possible to get those results imo.

 

Yes, clp under the hood (it's what i had available). Even just running off 1 360 rad, it is actually hard to get temps above 70c (+45 over coolant) running 1.375v for 5.4/5.0 as my 24/7 ... main thing was getting a handle on PLL and standby (sustain) voltage levels. This brought operating temps down by a bunch.

[suzuki]

Jmp,can you put a print with voltage settings from mocf ?

Trying to push mine from 5.4@1.31v up but seems i need a lot of voltage after this point.

 

CLP - works ok at -30 .

 

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Edited March 29, 2017 by suzuki

[jpmboy]

Sure, but the apex is hoked up atm. I probably have a few somewhere... not at home right now.

[Splave]

I had never tried LM before. Use on die and on ihs at stock normal water was like 4.5ghz r15 35c load lol

 

Didnt realize how amazing it was.

[websmile]

#ambientsplave incoming

[KaRtA]

Karta, fact that i have some stuff at home, doesnt mean that I have to using it. Here you can see 1.6 - 1,68 AVX 7700k load without throtling on 16C room ambient

 

Come on......I saw your facebook back at the time, you had been using it. Why post stuff like that and back track now. Sorry, but your subs have been dodgy as for a long time, and that A/C chiller you have setup explains a lot. Also noticed you removed a lot, is that because your conscience kicked in an got you to remove any evidence of your methods.....

 

Reminds me a lot of Raules009 and his Ice Buckets. Every time one got reported, he just kept removing them to stay in enthusiast. If you think you are as good as you are, why the hell would you want to stay in this league.

 

I have no problem with that video you sent. That's ambient cooling for sure. If you can explain the extra 8 degree drop on your 5.4ghz run, I'd love to hear it.

 

 

@jpmboy are your runs done with pure ambient, or are you using a chiller. The confusion comes by people using a chiller (or similar to the photo I shares) but still calling it custom water. This is the main reason there is problems.

 

I look at the rankings for something to aim for, but when the cooling method isn't filled correctly, its infuriating.

[jpmboy]

some with a chiller, some without in summer and winter. In either case the coolant is not colder than what a good winter day can do (and that's ambient) ;-)

(and I'm not affecting your league rankings)

aquarium chiller and a Koolance.

[KaRtA]

some with a chiller, some without in summer and winter. In either case the coolant is not colder than what a good winter day can do (and that's ambient) ;-)

(and I'm not affecting your league rankings)

aquarium chiller and a Koolance.

 

I appreciate it doesn't affect the league. It's just the matter of clarifying the actual cooling method and that the submission is correct. If you labelled as chiller, there's no problem.

 

Thanks for sharing your setup.

[ozzie]

as far as im concerned the problem lies with BOT and their caterogisation of the term in which the cooling is cooling, called, used etc, take custom for example, to me that means anything that isnt standard and is modified from the standard, take a car for eg, if its a custom car, that means it can be anything from the standard design, and i take that meaning for water cooling the same, BOT has made a rod for its own back in this catergory / terminology, what ever you want to call it

[jpmboy]

Jmp,can you put a print with voltage settings from mocf ?

Trying to push mine from 5.4@1.31v up but seems i need a lot of voltage after this point.

 

CLP - works ok at -30 .

 

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Hey Suzuki, I have these pics from a short use of the mocf earlier this evening. Apex is back on the bench (again :-/).

 

ran another XTU - chilled again.