this SHARING has to stop!!

[Massman]

tiborrr

i agree!

by the time i have access to the latest gear, they(the top benchers) have next gen gear. so all we get is to see their scores and try to play catch-up w/ last gen gear.

 

We could overcome this problem by creating different categories (something I picked up from Fubarswe) or leagues: the amateur league and the professional league. The amateur league would only have those who don't recieve any hardware at all, the professional league would consist of all benchers who do get hardware. We'd have to rely on honesty, but it's somewhat manageable.

 

I have no idea how long it's going to take to be able to code this feature, though, so don't quote me on this one.

[tiborrr]

We could overcome this problem by creating different categories (something I picked up from Fubarswe) or leagues: the amateur league and the professional league. The amateur league would only have those who don't recieve any hardware at all, the professional league would consist of all benchers who do get hardware. We'd have to rely on honesty, but it's somewhat manageable.

 

I have no idea how long it's going to take to be able to code this feature, though, so don't quote me on this one.

This is actually a very good idea, but to implement it is a whole another story. How would you separate from pros and amateurs as myself? I am affraid there are too many dishonest people around here, but still their percentage is faily small, so i'd say go for it.

Edited August 27, 2008 by tiborrr

[TaPaKaH]

Taking pictures of actual hardware doesn't solve the problem fully, as it only proves THE POSSIBILITY, not THE FACT that the results were done using different hardware.

I think we will be getting such hardware sharing reports for on and on until hardware and software developers don't find a way to ID a cards' S/N in a screenshot.

Until that happens - question: shared or not shared hardware will rely only on participants' honesty...

 

(not pointing at anyone's scores by saying this ... simply showing that rules are imperfect ATM)

 

 

Massman, I suggested that division ages ago, but the prob is that, again, we don't know who to specify as a "professional" overclocker as most people (including me) have no sponsorships ... they borrow hardware from their workplaces / friends ... how do you consider them: pro/non-pro ?

Edited August 27, 2008 by TaPaKaH

[maverik-sg1]

@mickeymouse:

This commercialization & globalization of OC scene ruined it all for us. We can't do anything but to piss in the wind. You simply can't compete with someone that has / or is provided with five highest-end handpicked graphics card, five top chips, five top clocking boards, etc, etc...

 

I'll stop when they cancel the 3M2k1SE support on ORB. This day isn't too far, believe me.

 

 

I could not agree more - even though my best benching days are behind me, the commercialisation of the scene is a real spoiler - imho such events should not be entered into HWBOT, merely placed in a chamionship league table all of it's own.

 

We cant disregard the scores achieved, but do these events with cherry picked products really have to be entered with the rest of us 'regular' guys? Do such score's really need to be here at all? Surely all these marketing bods at these big companies can create tehir own league table of sponsored events - or maybe there is a commercial opportunity for HWBOT to create one for them, leaving the 'hobbiests' a place to compete fair and square?

[Massman]

This is actually a very good idea, but to implement it is a whole another story. How would you separate from pros and amateurs as myself? I am affraid there are too many dishonest people around here, but still their percentage is faily small, so i'd say go for it.

 

Pro league = people who get hardware to bench with for free. So: people who work for manufacturers, who have acces to hardware in shops, who get review samples ... all those who get hardware on a regular basis (be it once a week/month/year). The pro-league will be quite filled, I think

 

Maybe a solution is to keep one league, but give these 'pro' benchers a special status, so that people who look at the ranking know that these people get hardware.

[Massman]

ago, but the prob is that, again, we don't know who to specify as a "professional" overclocker as most people (including me) have no sponsorships ... they borrow hardware from their workplaces / friends ... how do you consider them: pro/non-pro ?

 

I'd consider you pro. You have acces to free hardware to bench with, hence the reason why you can test all these cpu's and motherboards.

 

I could not agree more - even though my best benching days are behind me, the commercialisation of the scene is a real spoiler - imho such events should not be entered into HWBOT, merely placed in a chamionship league table all of it's own.

 

We cant disregard the scores achieved, but do these events with cherry picked products really have to be entered with the rest of us 'regular' guys? Do such score's really need to be here at all? Surely all these marketing bods at these big companies can create tehir own league table of sponsored events - or maybe there is a commercial opportunity for HWBOT to create one for them, leaving the 'hobbiests' a place to compete fair and square?

 

The international events are GREAT for the overclocking community, but a little shit for those who only bench as a hobby. I don't know about you, but I really like to see the massive scores people submit after they return from OC events. I know I have my place in the overclocking league and I know that it will be very difficult to hit top20, let alone top10. But that doesn't make me like benching less; I still like to occasionally bench extreme with friends. For instance, since I returned from MSI Amsterdam, I have planned to bench with Blind_ripper multiple times next month. I don't know where it will put me in the ranking (hoping for top30 of course), but if I beat someone who has acces to more hardware than me, I'll be friggin happy about it . When I tested my first E8500 ES (loaned from a shop), I got some very nice results, which I considered to be crazy at that time. Here's an article about the scores, you cannot believe how happy I was .

 

I completely understand, however, your point. As a matter of fact, I will try to come up with a system that makes HWBot more interesting for both hobbiest, for whom I have the utmost respect, and the pro-bencher, for whom I have a lot of respect as well. Don't expect it to show up really soon, because it takes time to work it out and takes time to discuss within the crew and to discuss with the coder as well. It all takes a lot of time, spare time really .

[BenchBros]

I ask me if it is sharing if some other guys bench on the same event with nearly the same hardware?

 

that suxx! I was on GC, I talked to NoName and Joe, and I see the CPUs, the Graphix Cards, the Memory...

NoName is so long in the business and I think it is not necessary for him to do such "illegal" things.

[BenchBros]

Many people dont tell us, that they get hardwarer for free.... so you create a new problem.... then the recriminations goes in another direction, but the problem ist the same.

 

i would say: thats life!

 

Then other benchers say, this guy earns more money than me... he i able to buy more hardware... he is in another categroy. So you have to build many new leagues... one for each bencher and so every bencher is the first in his own category.

 

this borderline makes absolutely no sense... if i have no sponsor, i have to deal with this fact... maybe work hard to get one, or not. but to say, this guy have tonns of hardware and he is in another league, this is absurd.

 

Every bencher have the chance to make some nice results, to write a lot of mails and maybe he will get a sponsor. thats a long way.... initiative is the keyword!!!

 

To blame somebody for sponsors is the bright grudge... dont cry, go for more and search for your own sponsors.

 

grudge is the highest acceptance you can give!!!!

 

PS: sorry for my bad english....

[maverik-sg1]

Thanks massman - I totally appreciate your point of view in both repsects and share simlar views on bioth aspects of the evolution of pro-benching versus commited hobbiest.

 

I am sure that these guys would/do still bench if not for these events - which is why I think Event league tables would be a great idea.... also think of the commercial benefits for HWBOT by doing them

 

This way, we can all aspire to be as good as the pro's and compare our results to theirs, without actually seeing them in the same league which can be all too deflating.

[a1098113]

@massman

good idea to separate the professionals and the amateurs. Its not fair to place sponsored, competitive clockers in the same league as the self sponsored overclocker. This would give "young" overclockers to bench harder and not be put down by the edge the pro clockers have, which is quite obvious

 

Another point of view is, i feel its not necessary to be accepting scores from events as those events are invitationals and also the hardware given are either gems or second best. Invitationals, competitions and sponsored events should not be given points.

[tiborrr]

@Benchbros: Perhaps in Germany with 80mio+ population - yes, but not in most of the countries, especially those that were treated as eastern block not so many years ago.

 

But i get your point - it's almost impossible to differ betwen pros and amateurs since people won't tell if they got their HW for free.

 

Best solution in my opinion would be that one could enabled option "SPONSORED/PRO OVERCLOCKER" by will in the hwbot settings which would result in a small icon next to the nickname. This way it would be easiest for both parties to differ between both pros and amateurs.

 

System wouldn't be perfect as all people lie (Gregory House ), but it would be better than nothing.

 

Greets,

N.

[fuzz3l]

Many people dont tell us, that they get hardwarer for free.... so you create a new problem.... then the recriminations goes in another direction, but the problem ist the same.

 

i would say: thats life!

 

Then other benchers say, this guy earns more money than me... he i able to buy more hardware... he is in another categroy. So you have to build many new leagues... one for each bencher and so every bencher is the first in his own category.

 

this borderline makes absolutely no sense... if i have no sponsor, i have to deal with this fact... maybe work hard to get one, or not. but to say, this guy have tonns of hardware and he is in another league, this is absurd.

 

Every bencher have the chance to make some nice results, to write a lot of mails and maybe he will get a sponsor. thats a long way.... initiative is the keyword!!!

 

To blame somebody for sponsors is the bright grudge... dont cry, go for more and search for your own sponsors.

 

grudge is the highest acceptance you can give!!!!

 

PS: sorry for my bad english....

 

*agree*

 

The "sponserd" benchers, are not born with their sponsors they have benched a lot, and worked hard to get this sponsership.

 

Everyone can get a sponsor, you just need to work hard.

Thats life

Edited August 27, 2008 by Kovsk

[knopflerbruce]

The results from these events can't be "forbidden" - as I think someone here suggested. HWBot would lose something important if people would have to go elsewhere to find the top scores. And I also think that the teams deserve the points they get when members bench together.

 

If the definition of a pro bencher is a bencher who either borrow or is given HW, we have a problem. A friend of mine gave me a 2gb kit of DDR memory, and another friend gave me an old turion CPU. Does this make me a pro bencher?? And if you get 1 piece of HW for free once, does that make you a pro bencher for life?

 

A solution to the last problem may be to have some check box in the submit screen where you check the box if you used sponsored HW;) If a sponsored bencher uses only stuff he bought himself, he's just a regular bencher.

[joe_cool]

In my eyes is this a absolute worthless discuss.

There is no way to proof all the things for anyone, you always have to trust what the guys tell you.

And what will you make if some really rich people find a new hobby like this, they will be able to buy and pretest 50 cpu's, 20 gpu's etc. ?

Will you call it a unfair competition again ?

Is F1 or any other motorsport unfair ?

Is it unfair when everybody use all his possibilities ?

 

Do you really think it would be a big problem for Michael or me to make the same or better scores at home ?

What will you do if one of us post his results one or two weeks later ?

Can you proof who made the scores, where are made the scores ?

 

Michael has already decided to leave the competition here.

In the moment i'm thinking about the same.......

 

 

_

[SoF]

well mickeymouse I hope you are happy with your 2nd place now.........

I always respected you with your pots and DICE knowledge and everything but what you have done here with this topic is incredible...

[Freakezoit]

MM's inquiry about the validity of the scores was valid, the same hardware tested at same speeds at the same event without any extra details who the hardware belonged to. If no_name choses to quit HWbot that is his choice, if info was provided from the start none of this would not have transpired.

 

lol Give it up Jmke you understand nothing .

[fuzz3l]

Sorry jmke thats not ok. There is NO ruel that says you need to discribe were and what hardware you are benching, and no ruel to make pics of the hw.

But against there is no ruel, somebody posts "sharing", you look, see "same typ of hw, same clocks" and delet it. But never asked No_Name oder Joe for an discribition before.

When you are doing something like that you should not wonder if people like No_Name and Joe(don't know that he does) leave hwbot.

You really think there will be no problem when some of the top benchers of the world are not here? Team Japan isn't here... when some germans aren't here too, you will get a big problem, because you "Rekord Database" is not really completly.

[knopflerbruce]

The problem here is that alot of people don't think. On one hand you have the people who yell "SHARING SHARING!!" without even considering the possibilities of something NOT be sharing, and then often look like idiots after it turned out that everything was pretty much OK:mad: This causes alot of anger and problems (like users quitting HWBOT - the best benchers need to be here, or else this will turn into a database of mediocre overclocks:rolleyes: - not a WR database), which could be avoided if people wouldn't post topics with aggressive titles, as this one. If I was mickeymouse I'd just report the score the normal way, without making alot of noise. Perhaps write a PM to jmke as well, if necessary.

 

On the other hand, everyone who reads the rules and visit this forum knows very well about HW sharing being in the spotlight these days. It's obvious that when a few users use pretty much the same setups someone will wonder if it's sharing or not.

 

*sigh*

 

...I just hope this doesn't turn into some "sharing accusation revenge mania". Sometimes people act like little children, we all know that:rolleyes:

[Massman]

If I was mickeymouse I'd just report the score the normal way, without making alot of noise. Perhaps write a PM to jmke as well, if necessary.

 

MM has reported scores via the reporting utility, this thread is not some sort of instant rage.

[t0mz0r]

Before I go off on what could seem like a small rant, at least in the inital part, please understand this is written with a smile and meant to be taken positively

 

Tbh I think a lot of this "childishness" everyone refers to is really quite general for the overclocking scene. Yes, I'd consider it childish for those that report sharing whenever they feel they've seen sth that indicates sharing without giving it any further thoughts. On the other hand, I think its equally childish to simply quit HWbot when you bump into criticism. Its bound to happen when you're one of the top benchers in the world - no offence, Micha.

 

Couldn't we instead turn this whole sharing topic into sth constructive and kick off a discussion about how best to fight hardware sharing?

 

Just my two cents.

 

/t0m :celebration:

[Maxi]

Thanks xtom, I like your thinking :ws:

 

It would be great if it didn't have this problem and I think it's clear what HWBot rankings are all about - a fun a fair competition among friends. Unfortunately some people do not treat it that way. The one thing I find particularly troubling is when people use the excuse 'other teams are bending the rules' to justify their actions. Don't let other people decide how you will participate, don't let other people push you to abuse the rankings. Compete fairly and HWBot will do the rest.

[Predator]

what i would like it stops is the crossfire accusing enviroment lol

 

 

@ No_Name and joe_cool, please bros don't give up

 

 

We are not without blame though: HWBot needs to properly communicate through a clear guidelines and conduct/rules page what should be done in similar cases like this.

 

you're right man, it should exist an ultimate guideline with rules posted in front page so hopefully most of these situations might be sorted out for good

Edited August 28, 2008 by Predator

[tiborrr]

Before I go off on what could seem like a small rant, at least in the inital part, please understand this is written with a smile and meant to be taken positively

 

Tbh I think a lot of this "childishness" everyone refers to is really quite general for the overclocking scene. Yes, I'd consider it childish for those that report sharing whenever they feel they've seen sth that indicates sharing without giving it any further thoughts. On the other hand, I think its equally childish to simply quit HWbot when you bump into criticism. Its bound to happen when you're one of the top benchers in the world - no offence, Micha.

 

Couldn't we instead turn this whole sharing topic into sth constructive and kick off a discussion about how best to fight hardware sharing?

 

Just my two cents.

 

/t0m :celebration:

Couldn't agree more. Mickeymouse got up on the wrong foot the other morning when he posted the initial post (so do I, many times unfortunately for the Hwbot crew:p). It could be said differently, but to quit hwbot.org just because you didn't clarify yourself properly (you could have known what will happen, you're a smart guy) is plain childish. I understand your anger, but that was not the right choice, right?

 

How many times would i have to quit hwbot.org just because my score got deleted because i covered the resolution settings information with details window? It was my own damn fault. Re-bench and post, nothing else i could do. In your case it was easy, just edit the description text. You seem to choose the stubborn way

 

My 2 cents,

N.

[TheKarmakazi]

I was sad to see no_name quit the bot, hopefully he will come back. He is hands down one of the best benchers in the world. No_name you should not give in so easily! Im sure its annoying to be accused of these things, but you were the person who was innocent... just ignore these things and keep breaking WR's. It is understandable why someone could've thought you were sharing, no need to take it personal!

[Monstru]

not quite... I would send out loaners only. job done. don't be a hater; you seem to know how it works; goes both way; build trust first, go on from there...

 

You have a point there and I know that, but what is the use of sending real benching hardware back, when, in order to be able to overclock it right, you have do to all sorts of physical modifications to those components? If you mod and insulate the card...the company does not have much use for it, no?

 

ya we should not rely on common sense, fails too often

 

Unfortunately, as you can see from all these threads...it...does fail to often...

 

Taking pictures of actual hardware doesn't solve the problem fully, as it only proves THE POSSIBILITY, not THE FACT that the results were done using different hardware.

I think we will be getting such hardware sharing reports for on and on until hardware and software developers don't find a way to ID a cards' S/N in a screenshot.

Until that happens - question: shared or not shared hardware will rely only on participants' honesty...

 

(not pointing at anyone's scores by saying this ... simply showing that rules are imperfect ATM)

 

I totally agree with this...

 

In my eyes is this a absolute worthless discuss.

There is no way to proof all the things for anyone, you always have to trust what the guys tell you.

And what will you make if some really rich people find a new hobby like this, they will be able to buy and pretest 50 cpu's, 20 gpu's etc. ?

Will you call it a unfair competition again ?

Is F1 or any other motorsport unfair ?

Is it unfair when everybody use all his possibilities ?

 

Do you really think it would be a big problem for Michael or me to make the same or better scores at home ?

What will you do if one of us post his results one or two weeks later ?

Can you proof who made the scores, where are made the scores ?

 

Michael has already decided to leave the competition here.

In the moment i'm thinking about the same.......

 

Joe has a very strong point and I totally agree...

 

 

 

 

 

Monstru doesnt like me.. :-( :-)))))))

.., here it is..

I paid like 1000 euro for my cascade.., I did it with money I earned fixing broken computers.., (a lot of them...)

LN cost bout 30l/100euro.., that would bring me 300L LN and okay.., I can do a lot of benching with 300L.., but when last drop is gone.., what do I have then.., Nada...

 

Taking pride in my effort (only cascadebench).., well.., If You have a prob with that.., more the pitty... I would suggest a suitable "workout" for you to loosen up a bit.., but I guess I could get hammered for that.. :-)))

 

Mate...I couldn't care less what you do, we are living in a free world, you can bench LN2, cascade or whatever pleases you. What I do not like is hypocrisy and bragging about benching a cascade, like that does not cost money or does not give you low temps. It makes me laugh my ass off when I see a "poor" western European complaining about money...If the best you can do in a country like Germany to earn money is fix old computers...you have a problem my friend, bigger then the existence of sponsored guys in the overclocking scene