Do you deserve those points ???

[TASOS]

I'm talking to all of YOU out there.

 

 

The privileged site owner , the reviewer , the lucky lab tester , the manufacturer employee , the heavily sponsored.

All you , that are happy to get once,twice,ten,twenty times a year ... every year , your brand new shinny (just released hardware) , that demolishes competition.

 

 

Do you understand , that benching special hardware , inside a manufacturer's lab , under ideal conditions , is not fair to everybody ?

 

 

Do you acknowledge , what an advantage there is , to submit results with a just (paper launched) high-end product and gain points for that ?

 

 

Do you understand , that besides your rankings as individuals , you are heavily altering the Glogal Team Power Points ... and hardware also ?

 

 

You know you can disable points for your submissions.

Dont you ?

 

I dont even bother to open a discussion about wether that specific hardware is considered RETAIL or not.

 

Does your team , deserve those points , just because you had the opportunity to bench that special hardware ?

 

Dont get me wrong , here.

I'm not talking about , the place you take at the board.

You may well deserve that 1st , 2nd ... whatever place.

No problem with that.

 

The main issue here is , about Team Rankings.

 

 

Come on now.

There has to be a solution.

 

Massman ???

 

Those 20-30 "special users" can have a league of their own.

I thought they had (to be honest)

 

Why do they have to mess with us ?

Us , regular everyday people , trying to enjoy our hobby ?

 

Looking forward for some answers.

Ethics and honesty , people.

[Guest TheMadDutchDude]

Isn't this exactly what the Elite league is for?

[K404]

That's only for the individual.

 

I still consider this scenario/problem to be more of an issue in an individual ranking, than team ranking.... I imagine this problem will never go away. There will always be people with better access and the perks that come with it....and that will always have an effect on a leaderboard. ANY leaderboard.

 

 

 

(this is completely separate to who "deserves" to have access... I am not talking about the action, only the consequence.)

 

(and no, I do not have any ideas for a solution. Hell.... not enough people consider it a problem in the first place)

[dx4picco]

if they are working with brands that's because they desserve it

and so team

[skulstation]

elite or no elite,if a store or manufactur gave you the opportunity to test high-end or other product's. for me no problem if he/she use it for points.

i am a normal self paying " non sponser " ocer. and i had the opportunity to test a gtx strix 960 , thx to tones. it was my dissision not to bench this gpu for points on stock speed

Edited March 19, 2015 by skulstation

[Leeghoofd]

No matter how you setup the ranking, he with the most money wins in the end... Now here is why I ended up in the Elite ranking, not because of my skills but because I have acess to some ( read not all) gear via manufacturers, the website or the Tones shop...

 

I see no reason to disable my points, not for me nor for my team... It is a privilege to get some freebies and this took in my case years of networking and efforts to get here...Dran I even talk to Stavros

 

The reward is that I can get some stuff for free... It might be considered as an unfair advantage, but that is the way it goes.

 

To sum it up: it is sadly all part of the game... love it or hate it...

 

ps:

 

Kenny for president!!

Edited March 19, 2015 by Leeghoofd

[TASOS]

Isn't this exactly what the Elite league is for?

 

Yes , that's it.

And i have no problem with that.

 

Glad to see them compete with each other , in their own league.

 

But , when they belong to a team.

Why does , that special hardware , have to alter the Team rankings and league ? through the global team power points and global team hardware points ?

[Leeghoofd]

Define special hardware ? Titan-X will cause a stirr right now, but once the cards hit the retail shelves many OCers will post scores and break your previously set on LN2 scores on air...

 

That's how it goes man... OC in its purest form... nothing lasts forever...

[der8auer]

Q: Do you deserve those points ???

A: Yes (general pov)

 

Usually all the guys who recieve "special hardware" did something to recieve the card. Could be a review or just the status of an elite overclocker.

However, you don't become an elite overclocker over night. You have to spend a huge amount of time and money to get there.

 

About the team-ranking we're already working on a cool solution (should have been online months ago - blame Massman )

[Massman]

Does your team , deserve those points , just because you had the opportunity to bench that special hardware ?

 

Massman ???

 

(below is is my PERSONAL opinion)

 

One word: absolutely.

 

Teams are composed of a wide range of overclockers, going from the extreme LN2 guys to enthusiasts and rookies. Not everyone has access to the same equipment, the same tools, or the same amount of time, but everyone competes within their own ability.

 

That someone doesn't have access to a certain type of hardware, because it's rare, unavailable, or expensive, is not a reason to say the points are not deserved.

[ObscureParadox_3XS]

The problem you seem to have more than anything is with the team rankings being affected by the looks of things and this is probably the area it's affected the least.

 

Don't forgot that you can get a vast amount of team power points from a plethora of different hardware.

 

Take classicplatforms for example, they bench next to no new hardware and don't have anybody with sponsors on their team, yet with some hard work and dedication the team of 16 people have managed to get to 5th place in the rankings by benching mainly older hardware.

Edited March 20, 2015 by ObscureParadox

[TASOS]

(below is is my PERSONAL opinion)

 

One word: absolutely.

 

Teams are composed of a wide range of overclockers, going from the extreme LN2 guys to enthusiasts and rookies. Not everyone has access to the same equipment, the same tools, or the same amount of time, but everyone competes within their own ability.

 

That someone doesn't have access to a certain type of hardware, because it's rare, unavailable, or expensive, is not a reason to say the points are not deserved.

 

Sorry , but

You are turning ordinary people away , from this sport.

(I still call it a hobby).

 

My opinion is to find a solution , that the team rankings are less affected , by these kind of submissions.

 

Elite users have their own league ... and it was made that way , for a reason.

[der8auer]

So you Want to punish the elites because they worked harder and invested more time?

[ObscureParadox_3XS]

So you Want to punish the elites because they worked harder and invested more time?

 

This is effectively the same impression that I'm getting too.

 

I think there are far too many jealous people doing this.

[TASOS]

So you Want to punish the elites because they worked harder and invested more time?

 

Is that the conclusion , you came up with , after reading what i wrote ?

That i want the elite users to get punished ?

[ObscureParadox_3XS]

Is that the conclusion , you came up with , after reading what i wrote ?

That i want the elite users to get punished ?

 

Well effectively if you want the elite users to get less out of their results then effectively you are going to be punishing them.

 

Like I said in a previous post, the impact that elite users have on team rankings is very small in my opinion. Anyone can get a lot of team power points by benching a lot of 775 CPUs for example. You can get them for less than a pound a CPU here in the UK now so you can't really say that you can't afford to keep up with the elite in terms of TPP. I mean most of the elite don't have the sort of time to go benching much older hardware compare to the enthusiasts anyway.

[Bones]

Sorry , but

You are turning ordinary people away , from this sport.

(I still call it a hobby).

 

My opinion is to find a solution , that the team rankings are less affected , by these kind of submissions.

 

Elite users have their own league ... and it was made that way , for a reason.

 

I can understand your thoughts/concerns over this subject.

Those of us that don't have access to the "Good" stuff being made to go up against those that do is unfair from several points, yet to say they don't deserve what they've earned isn't fair either.

 

The pieces of hardware they used didn't tweak themselves - They had to do it, set it up and all - That does take experience and the simple know how to do it at all. Those same guys could do very well without these cherry-picked examples too.

 

Related to teams, my team as mentioned has no sponsored members or even any Elite classed benchers yet we've worked our way into the top 5. We bench any and everything we can get our grubby paws on for good reason and it does pay off.

 

While I do feel your pain in having to go up against those guys at the same time I feel privileged to be able to and even on occasion beat one or two of them.

I can say if I had the same or close to the access they have I could do much better than I do now and even be a real PITA in the rankings for many here but I don't, my results from for example the 5 GHz 32M Super PI comp is an example that I could. However with my recent health issues and the lack of funds due to the bills associated with these current issues I'm not able to spend the money on stuff like many here can.

Time would be another restraint with having to deal with all of this and hold a job too, it's a real struggle at times to simply hold a job with all this going on yet I do and I still find time somewhere to do a few runs.

That's how it's been for me and why I haven't been so active as of late yet I still continue on.

 

Each person's situation is unique and does have an effect yet we all knew going in it was like this and that's just how it is. You'll never have a system that's 100% "Right" so just manage the best you can - It's what I have to do.

Edited March 21, 2015 by Bones

[newlife]

Why do people care so much about points and you know like not caring about having fun and enjoying benching which should be the main concern.

 

If all you care about is you should give up benching because you're quickly going to find you don't enjoy it.

[nickolp1974]

Why do people care so much about points and you know like not caring about having fun and enjoying benching which should be the main concern.

 

If all you care about is you should give up benching because you're quickly going to find you don't enjoy it.

 

People care about points because there benchers, having a database of submissions give a reference point on which to improve, it wouldn't be much of a hobby/sport if there wasn't anything to compare against. We are all competitive with some more than others and i care about points and i love my hobby i'd do it every minute of the day if i could and the "Elites" out there just make me want to get better and learn as much as i can and hopefully one day i can compete with them. I'd certainly never want to punish the "Elites" just because they get hardware handed to them, like has been said before they have earned it and deserve everything. We have an Elite member in our team and although now not an active points scorer the knowledge to be shared is awesome and is one of the most helpful guys i know.

[TASOS]

I can understand your thoughts/concerns over this subject.

Those of us that don't have access to the "Good" stuff being made to go up against those that do is unfair from several points, yet to say they don't deserve what they've earned isn't fair either.

 

The pieces of hardware they used didn't tweak themselves - They had to do it, set it up and all - That does take experience and the simple know how to do it at all. Those same guys could do very well without these cherry-picked examples too.

 

Related to teams, my team as mentioned has no sponsored members or even any Elite classed benchers yet we've worked our way into the top 5. We bench any and everything we can get our grubby paws on for good reason and it does pay off.

 

While I do feel your pain in having to go up against those guys at the same time I feel privileged to be able to and even on occasion beat one or two of them.

I can say if I had the same or close to the access they have I could do much better than I do now and even be a real PITA in the rankings for many here but I don't, my results from for example the 5 GHz 32M Super PI comp is an example that I could. However with my recent health issues and the lack of funds due to the bills associated with these current issues I'm not able to spend the money on stuff like many here can.

Time would be another restraint with having to deal with all of this and hold a job too, it's a real struggle at times to simply hold a job with all this going on yet I do and I still find time somewhere to do a few runs.

That's how it's been for me and why I haven't been so active as of late yet I still continue on.

 

Each person's situation is unique and does have an effect yet we all knew going in it was like this and that's just how it is. You'll never have a system that's 100% "Right" so just manage the best you can - It's what I have to do.

 

 

I must say , that i agree with most things you wrote.

 

I personally dont care about points.

I'd love to see them vanish , tomorrow if possible.

 

I'm in to overclocking too many years and i know how "the system" works.

I know how the system worked , even before the HWBOT existance.

 

I lived the era of the glorious overclocking forums.

That says it all !!!

 

The reason i opened this thread , has nothing to do , with my personal ranking or whatever.

I mainly did it , cause some members of my team (new members , with current gen systems , even high-end) are complaining about the ranking systems as it stands now.

Cause it very easily degrades the points earned.

They are discouraged by the real fact , that an everyday high-end system , (that costs a lot of money) benchmarks to receive 1.5 points , cause it's in the same boat with the "special" hardware.

 

"Do it for the Team" ... i tell them.

 

But , even that ranking system is affected , by these "special" submissions.

 

So , where does this situation lead ?

They stop benching , cause they dont see their reward.

 

"Why bother" ? ... they tell me.

I see them publish their results in the local forums and they stop uploading them to HWBOT anymore.

 

And i cant do anything , to motivate them.

 

"Look tasos" they tell me.

"The current gen Titan card , was paper launched yesterday ... and we already have tehth's of results already at HWBOT counting as retail parts"

 

That's just one of the examples.

 

 

 

The elite member , is what the title says.

No arguments.

 

The Elite , has his own league , has his own ranking , and for his hard-tough effort he is awarded with top ranking and hardware points and global points.

 

So

Why shouldnt there be an option for these "special" submissions only , to not participate in the Team hardware and global points ?

 

This way , we can still offer the motivation of the Team contribution , to the everyday regular users.

 

What is wrong with that ?

 

 

I believe my point of view is very clear and there is no room for misinterpretation or getting wrong ideas (especially for the Elites) as written by some earlier (about punishment).

 

Thank you all , for reading this.

[Antinomy]

Such discussions have already taken place with introduction of rev. 3. We have globals points and hardware points.

Global points are meant to be like this and always were. You should remember how ORB Hall of Fame looked like back then. Every time a new CPU hit the market it was guys like FUGGER, Shamino and others who ripped the rankings. They runned Vapochill/LN2 cooled chips like the newly announced Thoroughbred-B, P4 3.0, P4 XE, AMD Hammer, FX-55/57 and so on. I'm sure you didn't see "new members , with current gen systems , even high-end" in ORB's top10. Because it was about lots of tweaking, h/w modifications, cooling and ... top grade just released hardware.

 

This is what global rankings are about - a point-rewarded representation of ORB HoF.

 

OTOH we have hardware points. Yet again, it does rely on having the top CPU for high-end GPU benching (look at 12 just for example with his nice Haswell-E results). But low-end GPUs and 2D CPUs rely mostly on your skills and cooling.

 

Globals are easy come easy go points. You have to work really hard to stay high in the rankings. What I see is members are more complaining about "why do I have high-end hardware and can't have many points easily?". Go get some obscure or rare hardware, bench it and you'll have easy points, but a few. Work hard and you'll have global points with your hardware but they'll last till the next release. It's how it always have worked.

 

Obscure or old school categories don't rely on having "special hardware" and this is the way I always point to such members. No easy points on HWBot

 

As for those who got the hardware from a store or for a review - they'll have their points for say a week and will be moved out by the Pros who have skills and equipment for modding, cooling and running it in their high-end test bed. History will cycle here.

[TASOS]

As i said earlier to bones , when i quoted him , i agree with most things you wrote also.

 

But ...

 

As a team captain , i had to fulfill the request of my team members , to make this current issue public , so that hwbot staff can consider (again).

 

I opened this thread and i believe it's noted by the staff.

 

My job ends here.

I'm not the one that takes decisions.

 

Case closed.

[rtsurfer]

I only quoted the parts I have something to say about.

 

They are discouraged by the real fact , that an everyday high-end system , (that costs a lot of money) benchmarks to receive 1.5 points , cause it's in the same boat with the "special" hardware.

 

This is not true, if you are good enough then you can get decent points with the current gen systems.

 

Does the 4790K look like a part that belongs in an "everyday high-end system".

Look how many points I got for my submission a few days back

 

http://hwbot.org/submission/2797450_rtsurfer_xtu_core_i7_4790k_1278_marks

 

There is nothing "special" about this setup whatsoever, it done with an H100i. The CPU is bought in retail & not binned by anyone special except me. (Picked the best out of 2, guess I got lucky). And I spent my time hunting down double-sided Samsung, but everyone who is actually serious about Overclocking knows that you need either PSC or Samsung to get good result with DDR3. These are regularly sold on hwbot or other enthusiast forums. Personally I'm myself pretty pissed at the current DDR3 scenerio.

 

 

"Look tasos" they tell me.

"The current gen Titan card , was paper launched yesterday ... and we already have tehth's of results already at HWBOT counting as retail parts"

 

That's just one of the examples.

 

While this clarifications only apply to this specific scenario, I'll still put it out there.

 

Except matose & rsnubje all other TitanX results are from 'retail' parts. A lot of OCN people bought TitanX's on launch day with one day shipping. Those are the results that have been on the Frontpage from the past days.

 

So this example is flawed.

 

Bottom line its possible to be competitive in your own league & receive points if you are good at it.