Adjustment for Global Points - Work in progress

[Guest george.kokovinis]

Out of curiosity, I had a look at the UAT ranking.

 

As I stand now, I am n.43 in the world, n.1 in enthusiast league and n.4 in Greece.

On the UAT server I am n.285 worldwide.

 

 

Ahahaha....

 

This is a joke of course.

 

If the whole thing moves towards that "understanding", the understanding

of competition points weighing a lot more, then say goodbye.

 

I have basted my as@ with numerous hardware to reach with immense

effort a point where no other enthusiast overclocker in the world has ever dreamed off, and all will be erased for ??????????????????

 

Maybe I am damn stupid and someone smarter can explain ( on mathematical grounds ) the reason.

Certainly opinions " We think so..." or "sounds better..." or anything subjective and non mathematical proven is not welcome.

[Leeghoofd]

Well in all respect George but being nr 43 in the world on water seems a bit off too?

 

Many seem to forget that a ranking is only very temporarily when benching the latest and greatest hardware. At a certain moment you are obliged to revert back to e.g. old school gear to grab points that will be stable. Indeed with the latest revisions you might be sort of forced to participate in competitions... However competition points are a way of boosting ya ranking, yet again for a defined period of time...

 

OC has always been this way. You want to keep ya ranking, you have to remain busy. From a certain point on, one has to start to focus on other hardware/compos... or just forget about ranking and have fun with the hardware you can get your hands on...

[Rauf]

Uat is of course not final revision. There are WR points everywhere, I doubt that will make it into the final version. Be patient.

[Guest george.kokovinis]

Well in all respect George but being nr 43 in the world on water seems a bit off too?

 

Many seem to forget that a ranking is only very temporarily when benching the latest and greatest hardware. At a certain moment you are obliged to revert back to e.g. old school gear to grab points that will be stable. Indeed with the latest revisions you might be sort of forced to participate in competitions... However competition points are a way of boosting ya ranking, yet again for a defined period of time...

 

OC has always been this way. You want to keep ya ranking, you have to remain busy. From a certain point on, one has to start to focus on other hardware/compos... or just forget about ranking and have fun with the hardware you can get your hands on...

 

 

Albrecht,

 

Do you by any coincidence remember -

" Shut up, seat in your da corner and bring me my milk and newspaper ".

 

I will say no more.

 

 

Dice for two months and then LN2.

And I will keep climbing the ladder, despite that this annoys a handful.

 

And no ranking is temporary if someone can afford the latest and greatest and has the knowledge to take advantage of it.

Knowledge, persistence, passion, time and very deep pockets.

And maybe someday it is a vendor's pockets.

 

Unless the ranking revisions are made to "tailor like a costume" some,

to raise the interests in competitions because vendors demand that ( I have discussed all these directly with Pieter and Chris - so no surprises here ) and who knows what else.

 

Time will show who has risen by coincidence and who not.

[Leeghoofd]

Plz first reply my question if you think your current world wide ranking is spot on? If you think it is than I suggest you to reflect again on my previous post.

 

Maybe a small recap:

 

Yep you invested a lot of money in it and if you keep up with them expenses you might be able to stabilize your ranking in the current revision. Good for you though this is what most people are having issues with, including yourself. Though you are not admitting it yet. Time will tell if you figure it out...

 

George I'm all in for a better OC environment but you seem to forget you are only looking it from your own perspective. A brief look at my own point of view and probably also the viewpoint of many others:

 

I drop down a few spots or such in the world ranking; fine, no problem.

Hardware ranking which has been my only interest I drop down over 20 spots iso being 11th or such. I'm not even anymore on the first page lol. But I can climb up that ladder again by focussing on specific hardware to bench. Not much difference from the current ranking to me, besides the initial shock when looking at the newly proposed rankings.

 

Man I and many others have benched so much hardware. From cheap stuff to some high end cards... It doesn't always need 1K cards to have fun nor to climb up the ladder... The game you are currently playing is to buy and use the easy and expensive stuff that brings the most points.

 

I only find it more than logic for those that use extreme cooling to be well in front of air or watercooled benchers in the world wide ranking. If you want to compete with everybody indeed you will have to use more exotic cooling.

 

 

The evolutions the bot is going through is usually due to numerous "complaints" and/or constructive inputs from the community. Though one can't satisfy all. As Rauf suggested there are still some bugs in the UAT, so why already be so negative.

 

Just reflect on what you are doing right now and think what you can or will achieve with it... Plz stop focussing on this vendor thing as it will turn you into a very frustrated person. Plus if you ever met me in person I'm all laughs and giggles and some sarcasm from time to time

 

I wish you all the best and happy benching

Edited April 30, 2016 by Leeghoofd

[Guest george.kokovinis]

You should start from your last sentence Albrecht.

I am no youngster. 57 years old, 25 years overclocking even my coffee

machine ( !!! ), when Hipro5 ( George ) fought with a Prometeia Mach II and I had a modded Vapochill XE II.

Volt mods back then were done with a pencil and if they did not succeed we chose a different pencil.

Prescotts were volt modded with a thin wire on pins 1-3-4 ( remember that ? ) to get them up to 1.65V.

 

Frustrated ?

Nope.

I am not frustrated by running a 3000 employees business for 30 years now.

I will certainly not be frustrated by benching.

 

Perfectionist ? YES.

I love doing the best with the best affordable.

Working 10-12 hours daily, leaves me some time for my hobby in the weekends.

No smartas* here.

I study 10 hours and I bench 1 hour.

 

Why ?

I love the hobby.

I do not have any internal need to prove anything to anyone.

 

Having finished Harvard University with PhD in Macro-economics, I most certainly am over the level of being desperate to find a field of recognition.

 

People from Belgium are infamous for their kindness, hospitality and willingness to help.

So it comes as a surprise this "peculiar sarcasm" of yours, which at times

is on the edge of being insulting.

 

Enough. Period.

I overlook the extended text of yours.

 

Some are true, and some are a mile far from what is happening behind the curtains.

 

Since I have no financial interest in this hobby, I do not care.

Others are here to make an income.

So be it.

 

At the end of the line, this site is a financial organization and its primary goals ( as in every business ) is profit.

 

THAT I can understand and respect.

[Massman]

Uat is of course not final revision. There are WR points everywhere, I doubt that will make it into the final version. Be patient.

 

Correct. I will address R7 progress in a longer post later this week. But in short: the current version on UAT was a test to see if our new algorithms have any major flaws. They were in fact a bit generous with point distribution, and the League algorithm was not updated to handle the point calculation appropriately.

 

I've already issued a v0.2 update internally to address most of the issues. This will reduce the points to a "normal level (Dancop ~ 3K points).

 

More info soon

[Massman]

Another update!

 

On the UAT test environment we now have a fully recalculated site with R7 in action. The site will be up like this for at least a week, so feel free to provide your feedback on the points and leagues. For now I want to keep the explanation short, but what mainly changed is:

• Use the "weight" parameter to significantly decrease the impact of XTU (compare XTU 4xCPU with FS 1xGPU)
  
• Reduced the minimum requirement for a benchmark ranking to hit the top points
  
• Global and Hardware Points are now based on percentage of the top score (compare FS 1xGPU #20 on UAT and PROD)
  

The key effect of this implementation is that the difference in points between submissions will be smaller than it is now. This is because the algorithm looks at the score and not the ranking. There is a small bonus for 1st to 5th place, though.

 

Any submission is rated on three parameters:

• Benchmark: (formerly WR points) how good is the score in relation to the best score in the benchmark
  
• Global: how good is the score in relation to the best score in the global ranking
  
• Hardware: how good is the score in relation to the best score in the hardware ranking

The calculation of the league points is slightly adjusted as well. It is: SUM (TOP15 MAX(WR;GL) + TOP20 (HW)), this to avoid scores getting both WR and GL points contributing to the League points.

 

In terms of feedback, what would be most useful is a review of the benchmark, global and hardware rankings as well as a review of the Leagues. Specifically comments on the point scaling would be much appreciated. Some people asked to have the maximum points revised to 100 instead of 150 - is this something most people support? What do you think about the XTU weight? Should a similar weight reduction be applied to other benchmarks as well?

 

We are currently looking into two more R7 "possible" features:

• System points: ranking based on CPU subfamily and GPU Model (ie. Core i3 Skylake + GTX 960)
  • This could address the problem that you need the most high-end CPU to be competitive in 3D benchmarks (see: i7 6950X)

  [*]Variable parameters for specific Leagues (ie. for Apprentice it's TOP10(GL)+TOP40(HW))

  • This could put the focus on HW points for beginning overclockers, putting emphasis on WR/GL for extreme and elite)

 

SOME SCREENSHOTS

 

Fire Strike 1xGPU UAT

 

 

Fire Strike 1xGPU PROD

 

 

League UAT

 

 

League PROD

 

[Noxinite]

Hardware points have bumped up significantly for low end GPUs (looking at R9 270X), so could definitely encourage more participants. And yes, Global points are too high as I'm sure 112th place shouldn't get 123pts (out of 150pts max?). http://uat.hwbot.org/submission/3133250 And 67pts for 329th? http://uat.hwbot.org/submission/3133246

 

Similar to what I said before: too many extra global points could make the hardware points seem less worth it and nullify your efforts to balance them and increase participation. Going from current to UAT my hardware points have almost x2, but my global points have increase x5.

 

But I'm not totally adverse to the new system as I move up in the TPP contribution. (Gone down in Leagues, but meh).

 

Also, I'm against specific variables for the different leagues. You shouldn't have to be in a set league to maximize your points - say you use LN2, but also chase HW pts you could lose out to a guy on chilled water who can have the double the number of Hardware subs counting to ranking.

 

Current:

 

UAT:

 

PS: Not sure how to resize images, so as not to fill the screen.

Edited May 11, 2016 by Noxinite

[aerotracks]

Couple notes based on quick glance on my uat profile, first regarding 2D

- hwbot prime = new xtu? (for example I get very high points from my more than mediocre 5960X sub http://uat.hwbot.org/submission/3068798_aerotracks_hwbot_prime_core_i7_5960x_9172.44_pps)

- Maxxmem read is becoming more important (64.5 points for 5 sec benchmark, more than twice as valuable as some 3d subs I worked pretty hard for http://uat.hwbot.org/submission/3123949_aerotracks_maxxmem_read_bandwidth_ddr3_sdram_34234_mbytesec.)

- Sandy Scores seem overvalued across the board, what was 3-5 points previously turned into 20-25 pointers

- I think we can all agree that XTU is grossly overvalued right now, but with new revision don't even bother installing it on your bench os, waste of time

 

3D:

Previously valuable subs with GTX 580, HD 5870, GTX 480 have been degraded to rubble. Just one example GTX 480 3d05 rank 17/413 results in 11.3 points (http://uat.hwbot.org/submission/3190281_aerotracks_3dmark05_geforce_gtx_480_62331_marks)

Seems like the first guy with a golden Skylake on LN2 will make everyone else's subs with that particular graphics card worthless, that's not great for folks from different leagues / without LN2.

[Guest george.kokovinis]

Revisions...revisions...

 

Meaning ? NONE

Motive ????

Target ????

 

People pay substantial amount of $$$ to create a portfolio of submissions to get them higher.

Picking the right hardware depends on the weight of each submission that is valid until a new revision takes things upside down.

 

Soon someone feels that his $$$ and immense effort spent for several submissions are downgraded to minimal value or even garbage.

 

I do not like being caught off guard and feel stupid, because some things

are not "convenient".

 

Effort and money investment needs a stable environment.

 

I Know that my opinion does not mean anything.

It never did.

What is to be done will be done, regardless of what we, the members say.

 

I see huge names quitting every day, the market place dead and the bot filled with rookies ( nothing against them ).

 

Active members : 800. Registered members 150.000.

 

Now that is what I call progress.

[GeorgeStorm]

Haven't really got back into it yet so my opinion shouldn't be worth a massive amount, but I noticed that my ranking in all of the leagues etc went down, but my points went up, so it makes me think you may be diluting what a point is actually worth as more people just have more points?

 

Haven't done any proper looking into it but that was my first instinct when I saw the page.

[der8auer]

rev8 will be just +200 points for everyone

 

 

j/k. I like rev7 so far.

[Rauf]

Great work @Massman Thank you for a more comprehensive update.

I have looked at it and I like it But have some comments of course:

 

XTU

It should not be artificially nerfed. It gives half of the points to other benchmarks now… I don’t understand why you don’t put a limit on the number of submissions that gives the benchmark more points. Like points increase until X submissions. After that max points will stay the same. Treat all benchmarks the same. If you do manual nerf you will always have to balance the nerfing with constant adjustments.

 

Point scaling

Too little scaling for top spots. Also too little going down to top 20 and below. On my UAT profile my second place in 2core Geekbench don’t even make it onto my top 15 submissions point wise. It gets beaten a fifth place 6700K Wprime 32M for example. Also going from a 20:th place to a sixth place will get you less than 10 points in general.

My proposal is 75 points is the maximum “base†points (we’re talking globals now). These base points will be the ones affected by how many submission a benchmark has. Nr1 score will be base result and get 75 points if the benchmark is popular. All other scores get a percentage of the base score, just like the current uat server. However the top score also gets a 100% bonus for being nr1 = 75+(75x1.0) = 150 points. Each following scores get a 25% decrease in the bonus points. So +75% for being nr2, +56.3% for being nr3, +42,2% for nr4 etc.

 

Example (not accounting for scaling of the base points):

1 150,0

2 131,3

3 117,2

4 106,6

5 98,7

6 92,8

7 88,3

8 85,0

9 82,5

10 80,6

 

Another problem is that unpopular categories gets too high points now. For example 4xgpu 3dmark05 gets 133 points vs 31 in the current ranking. You need to work on the way the number of submissions affects the points.

 

System points

Hard to see how it would work? So each GPU would have rankings for 2C/4C/6C/8C/10C cpus? That’s a lot of rankings. I don’t see any of those rankings being popular enough to give meaningful points. I would go with three special categories which would be:

- Low end GPU with NON-High End Desktop CPUs (no X99)

- Mid end GPU with NON-High End Desktop CPUs

- High end GPU with NON-High End Desktop CPUs

 

That way these special categories can hold through new HW releases, new HW just gets added into the correct category.

 

HW points

Seems spot on to me. Will make newer hw more popular while still giving higher points to popular hw.

 

Bugs

In user profile the sum of WR+GL of a submission counts towards your top 15 scores listed in your points, but when the actual points for the ranking is calculated on one of WR or GL counts. This could mean a score will be among your top 15, but not counted in your league points, or points will be counted wrong depending on how it is set up.

 

Globals are given to all benchmarks right now. Geekbench single core and maxx mem read etc.

 

What’s up with catzilla 720p. Gives 265 points

[Rauf]

Revisions...revisions...

 

Meaning ? NONE

Motive ????

Target ????

 

People pay substantial amount of $$$ to create a portfolio of submissions to get them higher.

Picking the right hardware depends on the weight of each submission that is valid until a new revision takes things upside down.

 

Soon someone feels that his $$$ and immense effort spent for several submissions are downgraded to minimal value or even garbage.

 

I do not like being caught off guard and feel stupid, because some things

are not "convenient".

 

Effort and money investment needs a stable environment.

 

I Know that my opinion does not mean anything.

It never did.

What is to be done will be done, regardless of what we, the members say.

 

I see huge names quitting every day, the market place dead and the bot filled with rookies ( nothing against them ).

 

Active members : 800. Registered members 150.000.

 

Now that is what I call progress.

So basically all change is bad, if it means george's ranking is lower?

 

Effort and money will never be stable. What do you think will happen to your points after computex this year? It is a constant chase if you are benching for globals. If the rankinbgs can change for the better isn't that good regardless of how your current situation is?

[Guest george.kokovinis]

 

What’s up with catzilla 720p. Gives 265 points

 

 

Because it is the most difficult ( and bugged ) bench. Ahahaha:D

[Guest george.kokovinis]

So basically all change is bad, if it means george's ranking is lower?

 

Effort and money will never be stable. What do you think will happen to your points after computex this year? It is a constant chase if you are benching for globals. If the rankinbgs can change for the better isn't that good regardless of how your current situation is?

 

 

Do you truly believe I care a bit ?

Because if you do, you are making a big mistake.

 

Or am I entitled to agree ?

Not so polite to criticize me.

I never addressed anybody specifically.

 

And if you can't truly understand why all this is happening, then you should

look at the forest and not the tree.

 

 

Respect to all, but this is not North Korea.

[der8auer]

Why do you complain if you don't care? Doesn't make sense

[Rasparthe]

You know who doesn't care? All the people who don't bother to comment.

 

Sent from my SM-N920W8 using Tapatalk

[Guest george.kokovinis]

Why do you complain if you don't care? Doesn't make sense

 

I did not expect you Roman to say that.

Where did you see or read any complaint.

 

Did I say I do not like this or that or whatever ?

I just stated, as many many others have done up to now, that I would prefer things to stay as they are.

 

But, as I said, decisions are far and above me and the vast majority of

members.

 

You know what folks ?

I leave you alone to do whatever you wish.

Never participate again in the forums and never state an opinion.

 

The biggest proof that things are adjusted to serve the top, not the mob.

 

Adios:ws:

[Guest george.kokovinis]

You know who doesn't care? All the people who don't bother to comment.

 

Sent from my SM-N920W8 using Tapatalk

 

 

That is 99.9% of the members.

Cool.

99.9% of the members do not care.

 

Carry on.

[Rasparthe]

Maybe you and everyone else has different views on what complaints are, reread your first comment on the UAT. You don't see any complaints? Everyone would like to see your opinions just don't claim you don't care. If you take the time to post, you care.

 

Sent from my SM-N920W8 using Tapatalk

[havli]

I don't know... the point distribution looks very weird to me. For example:

http://uat.hwbot.org/submission/3097787_alpi_gpupi_for_cpu___1b_pentium_4_641_55min_17sec_747ms/

http://uat.hwbot.org/submission/2901026_genieben_gpupi_for_cpu___1b_mobile_celeron_925_57min_54sec_404ms/

 

3% difference in score - the first score gets 11 global points, the second one = 0.

 

Or this guy's profile - 137 global points, 720th place in extreme

http://hwbot.org/user/jakubtomek007/#Points

on UAT = 962 global points, 307th place

http://uat.hwbot.org/user/jakubtomek007/#Points

 

It seems 6700k and LN2 is all you need to gain all global points (15 scores) for league rank.

[Leeghoofd]

If only the UAT server would work

[Alan_Alberino]

UAT server is down since at least one and a half day, please check what's happening so we can see the new changes...