Opinion needed: Ideas for next HWBOT revision

[Christian Ney]

OP updated.

 

Poll will be reset soon.

[KaRtA]

I might be looking at all of this wrong, but here is my thoughts.

 

Is there really a problem with the leagues. I think it's pretty fine how it is for main rankings, and make sense for how they are structured.

 

A lot of this is coming from the ambient competitions yeah? So, having Proposal 3 for the competition side could be a reasonable alternative, but not sure how you figure the <3 into it. ie, is it based on how you finish in a series? or is it in each competition/round? Just asking so there is more all round thought to the implications.

 

HWmonitor showing temps, clocks and utilization and run in conjunction with the benchmarks could be the best option for monitoring. All for the love of all that is overclocking, full rig pics, not socket close-ups.

 

For those in hotter climates, a chiller or Ice-Bucket are necessary to get temps to compete, and shouldn't limit competitors in no-clock-limit stages for these. Hope this makes sense, trying to say that if there is clock limits, cooling is not an issue, but where there is no-clock limit, then competitors should be able to cool to the minimum temp allowed by whatever means available to them. I have to have my aircon blowing directly at my radiator to get down my ambient to 20 (usually 30°c for 8-9 months of the year), without this, I could not get near the others without a very good binned CPU.

 

I think as long as there is a way to keep competition fair in the ambient league (extreme/elite/pro are fine), the overall league setup and rankings is a non-issue as it works how it is.

[Elkim]

If I understood the idea the right way, I like it. I assembled together over the time very good two loops with two MORAs 4x180mm and I run them outside on the terrace. These days I'am about to enter extreme league but I would like to compete with water, because sometimes water OC may come easier where voltmods are needed and my external-watercooled-plug n play workbench is more easy to work with then with LN2.

 

As for water (non)chilled issue, its hard to determine what should be the cross-temp because me, personally, I can set the temp at some range so I can make it into the templimit. Also, we just can't force all water users to use water sensor. I suggest to keep chilled water in ordinary water unless someone comes with some brilliant idea.

 

So my proposal is that even elite/extreme members could compete but there should be temps/picture verification of cooling method. Most of us are adding a piece of paper with name/date when we are selling a piece of HW, so I guess it shouldn't be a problem to add it to photo of hardware

[Splave]

We need simple simple simple, the harder things are getting to understand the more new guys just move along and decide not to participate.

 

IF you get samples and or have ES you are elite.

IF not you are not.

 

2 leagues cut and dry. Majors and Amateurs. Cooling can be cheated so is irrelevant. Even if a device is developed for telemetry and temperature I'll stick the probe under the south bridge and run my cpu on ln2 lol. Dont make a league for something that cannot be policed.

 

Back to new guys. So they come read the rules, you are an amateur unless you get hw samples and or choose to use ES or you just prefer to compete there if not you are amateur league.

 

Not if you use and air cooler and you are 2 months old and have ginger hair then you are in the ginger amateur air leauge.

[Elkim]

We need simple simple simple, the harder things are getting to understand the more new guys just move along and decide not to participate.

 

IF you get samples and or have ES you are elite.

IF not you are not.

 

2 leagues cut and dry. Majors and Amateurs. Cooling can be cheated so is irrelevant. Even if a device is developed for telemetry and temperature I'll stick the probe under the south bridge and run my cpu on ln2 lol. Dont make a league for something that cannot be policed.

 

Back to new guys. So they come read the rules, you are an amateur unless you get hw samples and or choose to use ES or you just prefer to compete there if not you are amateur league.

 

Not if you use and air cooler and you are 2 months old and have ginger hair then you are in the ginger amateur air leauge.

 

^^ what he said...

 

I tried to involve some new guys into this, but 9 of 10 gave up after few mins, cos its complicated, they said. Not they're stupid or lazy (maybe a little) but first come not-simple, first feel overwhelmed.

[Rasparthe]

I would also like to see something simple like this, maybe even with all global and hardware submission limits removed if it's used in conjuction with an official "ladder" or relegation system that begins at the start of the year and finishes at the end of the year. So every year crowns a winner. You end up with a persistent league to see your overall ranking but an official competition league for guys to move up and give motivation to keep pushing. It would also provide a very easy path for newcomers

 

Sent from my SM-N920W8 using Tapatalk

[Guest george.kokovinis]

We need simple simple simple, the harder things are getting to understand the more new guys just move along and decide not to participate.

 

IF you get samples and or have ES you are elite.

IF not you are not.

 

2 leagues cut and dry. Majors and Amateurs. Cooling can be cheated so is irrelevant. Even if a device is developed for telemetry and temperature I'll stick the probe under the south bridge and run my cpu on ln2 lol. Dont make a league for something that cannot be policed.

 

Back to new guys. So they come read the rules, you are an amateur unless you get hw samples and or choose to use ES or you just prefer to compete there if not you are amateur league.

 

Not if you use and air cooler and you are 2 months old and have ginger hair then you are in the ginger amateur air leauge.

 

 

What Allen said.

Listen to an experienced man.

I have said it 1000 times.

 

1) Keep it simple

2) No way to remotely verify cooling. None !

[willemc700]

I like hwbot the way it is now

 

Me 2.

It isnt that hard.

Running b-die on gigabyte is harder.

[Christian Ney]

I would also like to see something simple like this, maybe even with all global and hardware submission limits removed if it's used in conjunction with an official "ladder" or relegation system that begins at the start of the year and finishes at the end of the year. So every year crowns a winner. You end up with a persistent league to see your overall ranking but an official competition league for guys to move up and give motivation to keep pushing. It would also provide a very easy path for newcomers

 

Proposal #4 incoming

I would keep the limit tho.

And need to find a way to limit backups.

Edited April 20, 2016 by Christian Ney

[Rauf]

We need simple simple simple, the harder things are getting to understand the more new guys just move along and decide not to participate.

 

IF you get samples and or have ES you are elite.

IF not you are not.

 

2 leagues cut and dry. Majors and Amateurs. Cooling can be cheated so is irrelevant. Even if a device is developed for telemetry and temperature I'll stick the probe under the south bridge and run my cpu on ln2 lol. Dont make a league for something that cannot be policed.

 

Back to new guys. So they come read the rules, you are an amateur unless you get hw samples and or choose to use ES or you just prefer to compete there if not you are amateur league.

 

Not if you use and air cooler and you are 2 months old and have ginger hair then you are in the ginger amateur air leauge.

I agree.

 

Also, if we are moving hwbot more in the direction of competitions and a sport, it seems very odd to limit the popular ambient competitions to 4th league. Why would anyone want to leave that league? I'm sure some extremes would make sure they would be in that league as well to win some comps. And what do the vendors say when we are limiting the possible number of contestants in their comps?

[websmile]

Don´t get this wrong, Tobias, after recent development we want to make sure that exactly this does not! happen. We see people with pro level binning and hardware at enthusiast league that dominate the ambient competition. This is not what we want, so if you win or do good at a certain amount of el comps, we consider this to be a pro effort and automatically upgrade those members or block them from ambient competitions which were once made for hobby league and now are the source of income for people who obviously make easy life by avoiding upleveling and grab all el comp prices - might be formulated a bit harsh, but this is feedback I received by a lot of enthusiasts after last years competition facit

[Guest george.kokovinis]

Don´t get this wrong, Tobias, after recent development we want to make sure that exactly this does not! happen. We see people with pro level binning and hardware at enthusiast league that dominate the ambient competition. This is not what we want, so if you win or do good at a certain amount of el comps, we consider this to be a pro effort and automatically upgrade those members or block them from ambient competitions which were once made for hobby league and now are the source of income for people who obviously make easy life by avoiding upleveling and grab all el comp prices - might be formulated a bit harsh, but this is feedback I received by a lot of enthusiasts after last years competition facit

 

 

Michael,

 

You know very well, as Chris and Pieter does, that the main issue with the enthusiast league, is a minority of less than 5% that does not have honesty and ethics.

 

Let me state upfront, that I will respect whatever decision is taken.

Here in my country we have a saying :

" When someone can't beat the horse then he beats its tail "

 

The technical inability to monitor the cooling methods, creates the need

of restructuring the leagues.

 

I can't see anything wrong with binning processors or whatever in the enthusiast league.

Does enthusiast mean amateur or hobby ?

Enthusiast used to be a definition of a league where the members could use air and water.

Not by the quantity of available hardware and certainly not by the level of knowledge, expertise and skills.

 

Let's define professional.

Professional by money earned or professional in the way benching is approached.

 

I personally consider myself very professional in the attitude I approach benching, but I do not chase money, sponsorships or whatever else.

 

Flip the coin.

Dancop ( an example ) is a professional by the meaning of earning money.

Yes, he has the knowledge, the skills, the passion, but it is clear he does it

for financial reasons.

 

So, two sides of the same coin.

He is in Elite League first, I am first in Enthusiast league.

Is he more professional than me ?

I do not know. maybe and then maybe not.

 

 

So, any excuse that binning defines the level is unsubstantiated.

 

Facts regarding competitions in the ambient league.

There is a single person that has won 90%+ of all ambient competitions in the last two years.

Cool.

Is he the best ambient overclocker ?

Of course he is not.

He is 220+ points behind me in the enthusiast league and he is ranked 5 or something.

 

What does this tell us ?

HE IS the pro, by the money definition.

He is here and lives here only to steal in an expert way, under covered, all

the prizes in the ambient competitions.

 

All in all.

Do whatever you like.

Allen does not care, Tobias does not care and even I do not care.

 

But think of the youngsters.

The more confusing, the more deterring.

 

George over and out, as we said in the army:)

[der8auer]

We need simple simple simple, the harder things are getting to understand the more new guys just move along and decide not to participate.

 

IF you get samples and or have ES you are elite.

IF not you are not.

 

2 leagues cut and dry. Majors and Amateurs. Cooling can be cheated so is irrelevant. Even if a device is developed for telemetry and temperature I'll stick the probe under the south bridge and run my cpu on ln2 lol. Dont make a league for something that cannot be policed.

 

Back to new guys. So they come read the rules, you are an amateur unless you get hw samples and or choose to use ES or you just prefer to compete there if not you are amateur league.

 

Not if you use and air cooler and you are 2 months old and have ginger hair then you are in the ginger amateur air leauge.

 

^^^^^^

this plus:

 

Move away from the "ego sport". Everything at HWBOT is focused on individuals. Team doesn't matter whatsoever. Put the focus back on teams, too (new Team Ranking).

 

Almost nobody starts LN2 as an individual. You need guys who back you up and show you how to do it. That's what a team is for.

[Guest george.kokovinis]

^^^^^^

this plus:

 

Move away from the "ego sport". Everything at HWBOT is focused on individuals. Team doesn't matter whatsoever. Put the focus back on teams, too (new Team Ranking).

 

Almost nobody starts LN2 as an individual. You need guys who back you up and show you how to do it. That's what a team is for.

 

^^^^^^^^^^^^

Correct.

But there is a small problem here.

I can't buy retail LN2 where I live Roman.

My next best option, coming up by the way, is DICE.

 

Now, where should I belong ?

And what chances do I have to compete LN2 guys ? ZERO

[websmile]

When me and others fought for EL competitions, and also that prices were provided, we all did not intend this to be a source of income for people at pro level. This is all I say about this, it was meant to give more thrill and small reward for good benchers who decided to stay at above zero cooling. Enthusiast is leaue for hobby, you can take a hobby serious, but when you earn money by this, after a certain level it is professional. In the end, it is also a question of relation, if someone wins 90% of all el comps, why should be let him keep on doing so when he obviously is that good that he should compete at a pro or elite level? You cannot have same rewards at "formula hobby or three" than you get at Formula 1...

[Guest george.kokovinis]

When me and others fought for EL competitions, and also that prices were provided, we all did not intend this to be a source of income for people at pro level. This is all I say about this, it was meant to give more thrill and small reward for good benchers who decided to stay at above zero cooling. Enthusiast is leaue for hobby, you can take a hobby serious, but when you earn money by this, after a certain level it is professional. In the end, it is also a question of relation, if someone wins 90% of all el comps, why should be let him keep on doing so when he obviously is that good that he should compete at a pro or elite level? You cannot have same rewards at "formula hobby or three" than you get at Formula 1...

 

I fully agree with this specific point.

I am aware of the huge efforts done towards that direction.

 

Now, let's concentrate on the bigger picture:)

[websmile]

At both proposals we discuss, this is the bigger picture... ranking is determined by points and/or comp success at #2 respectively by choice of Pro, ranked or unranked league which also has a competition limit in it at #3 - cooling is irrelevant for both proposals apart from maybe comps when no fixed clock limit is applied for competitions

Edited April 20, 2016 by websmile
specification

[zeropluszero]

Good Idea, Splave for president.

 

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Competitions though, how does that work?

Say we do 2 Leagues, Essentially, its Sponsored Vs Non-Sponsored.

Where do we draw a line between someone not getting sponsored gear, but has the means to bin 100 chips?

That person wins most times.

 

I've received samples, and will happily move to "majors" league if it goes that way.

Edited April 20, 2016 by zeropluszero

[websmile]

Good Idea, Splave for president.

 

----------------------------------

Competitions though, how does that work?

Say we do 2 Leagues, Essentially, its Sponsored Vs Non-Sponsored.

Where do we draw a line between someone not getting sponsored gear, but has the means to bin 100 chips?

That person wins most times.

I've received samples, and will happily move to "majors" league if it goes that way.

 

Based on the proposal Christian made, you are limitted to three top 3 places at enthusiast competitions, afterwards you have to participate in what we call nowadays extreme/elite/all out competitions. If I understood this correctly, your 100 chip man will have to play with the big boys after that, pro binning, high success=pro competitions

 

P.S I really want to thank all that give feedback here, we need this to see what you like, if our ideas are welcome and make sense. No need to agree with what I say for example, or the propsals made, if you have different ideas, these are welcome

Edited April 20, 2016 by websmile

[Elkim]

Dancop ( an example ) is a professional by the meaning of earning money.

Yes, he has the knowledge, the skills, the passion, but it is clear he does it

for financial reasons.

 

 

George, how did you determined, that Dancop does benching for the money? Maybe you know him better then I do, but I don't think he is benching for earning. As far as I know, he has his daily job, he has family.

 

Lets do some logic. First off all, binning is no serious business unless you have the perfect way to get rid of the rejects.

Second, you need a big chunk of money to do binning for earning the money. And binning takes time, alot of it. I did the math man...

Third, we all know this hobby is expensive as f*ck, and if there is a little bit way to make some revenue of the money we are all putting in this godloving hobby, we all should and will do it.

 

The better example is Roman, but I don't think, that the fact he is making money is the main thing. He is just that good, that he managed to turn his hobby to also earning the money for the living. Also, I don't know him that good either, so I can't say really.

 

As for the issue of binning itself. Yes, there are two sides of the coin. But mainly, I think its matter of approach. I'am not that rich neither I don't have budget for binning right now, nor alot of guys have. When I'am trying to involve some guys into this, they said, that it doesn't make sense because you actually can't compete guys with LN2 and few 1/200 binned chips and they give up before start. But hey, lets these PRO OC guys speaking. Roman, Daniel, Allen, Michael, Hazzan and all the others. When they started with XOC or just OC itself, had they ever thinking about binning? I guess no, its all part of the progress and evolve as overclocker himself.

 

So yes, the competetion itself may seems to be a little unfair but I think, it isn't. This is just how world works in all ways.

 

This whole thing is appears to be so complicated but it isn't really. I would do it as Splave said. You wan't to submit samples? Then enter Elite.

 

Simple, simple, simple...

[brice28]

In the end, it is also a question of relation, if someone wins 90% of all el comps, why should be let him keep on doing so when he obviously is that good that he should compete at a pro or elite level? You cannot have same rewards at "formula hobby or three" than you get at Formula 1...

 

First : Why he can't ? Just beause other complain ?

 

Second : Why he must move to compete in higher league if he don't have weapons for fight them ?

 

It's like someone wins too much Formule 3K so league automaticaly move him in F1 league but he still only have F3K car .....

 

Acces to hardware it's a important point, but Cooling still a importante part of the OC world.

 

 

Honnestly this new type of "Rules" it's to focus on one or two people.

 

You can also create same for "Pro" if it's always same guys win but it'll never happend thankfully for us

 

My 2cents.

[websmile]

Because these are enthusiast competitions - you drive f3, you do not get higher payment than f1 driver.. I think this is quite simple. At Pro league no need for limitation. You simply forget that Enthusiast league is by definition a hobby league, and we don´t focus on people but on the system. Why should someone provide 5K worth prices a year to guys who don´t fight at highest level, look at pro comps and you see 99% of those get a lot less but have higher cost because of LN2 and fight against better benchers. You want to make a highest level approach, compete against the best with best possible cooling.

I start to think that it was a mistake to create competitions with prices for the hobby league, we cannot fully verify cooling and we lowered motivation to level up. Seems it is time to return to the lucky draw system for this, this would solve this problem

[Guest george.kokovinis]

Because these are enthusiast competitions - you drive f3, you do not get higher payment than f1 driver.. I think this is quite simple. At Pro league no need for limitation. You simply forget that Enthusiast league is by definition a hobby league, and we don´t focus on people but on the system. Why should someone provide 5K worth prices a year to guys who don´t fight at highest level, look at pro comps and you see 99% of those get a lot less but have higher cost because of LN2 and fight against better benchers. You want to make a highest level approach, compete against the best with best possible cooling.

I start to think that it was a mistake to create competitions with prices for the hobby league, we cannot fully verify cooling and we lowered motivation to level up. Seems it is time to return to the lucky draw system for this, this would solve this problem

 

AMEN !!!:celebration:

[Elkim]

@websmile

 

I still think that piece of paper added to photo as verification is kinda bulletproof. We all have smartphones with camera, we all have piece of paper and pen.

 

If its still enought, just add some "captcha" RNG number in the point of submitting the score which is valid for 5 mins and "data" has to match the submit. Thoughts?

[GeorgeStorm]

Couldn't you just change the ratio of the prizes available in the enthusiast vs pro/extreme/whatever competitions? So there's still something on the line for the enthusiast competitions but nothing in comparison to the big boys?

 

I do agree with others who say that trying to limit leagues based on cooling is entirely honesty based and just so open to abuse.