Is Enthusiast League still any fun?

[ADVenturePO]

Hi OCers! 
@Massman @Leeghoofd @_mat_ @der8auer @NATA 58 @avalanche @ksateaaa23 @Mat_Agnesi

I'm an overclocker for a few years now. I worked my way up with hard and long work-just like almost anyone here on top positions.
But now I'm facing .. we Enthusiasts are facing very depriving situation: GAP.
The points are distributed in such a horrible way that Enthusiast overclocking is slowly making no sense at all.

Today I've made a lot of scores and submissions with 3970X Threadripper, despite 3 days of testing, regulating and getting such awesome results for a real life usage like rendering,
Those are scores at almost highest possible levels for LC cooling, and yed despite getting extreeme results brings dissapointment.
 

I literally will get no point for results here. 
Two days ago I had beaten almost every score for 3960x - and this points will vanish to almost none right after someone will take LN2 or LH and just try to make some scores. 
Using the gap between  Extreme and Enthusiast scores which are using totally different cooling systems is a bit of stupidity.
And now we are facing a total cut of from points - the more cores and lower lithography  the bigger gap between  Extreme an Enthusiasts.

As Roman showed - almost the same voltage and only difference in temperature - totally different silicone die behavior. 
I have a few friends who thought they will have fun - because they know a lot about OC and they're having fun with it ... they came to HWBOT,
got some nice scores... in the meaning of Enthusiast results but not points. And that was the end of them scoring on HWBOT.

So, to boost up competition on a realistic level there should be division of scores. Full division so even on a chart of the CPU there would be colums
"Benchmark Name" / WR / WR Enthusiast / Country Record / Country Enthusiast / Team Record / Personal Record.

Same in Hall of Fame and Rankings. 

There is a voltage wall and temperature wall for Enthusiasts and no experience can do anything about it.

Right now HWBOT is being more and more like a marketing tube which is of course totally misleading for unknowing buyers.
The portals are screaming about new records... and many of my clients are asking will I make a 5GHz+ TR3 AMD for them. 

The smaller lithography the bigger the gap between Extreme and Enthusiast will be.
Especially when some scores are sponsored and they are being counted for the gap with Enthusiasts overclocking. 

I can just hope You will take some actions as this two types of overclocking should be divided. 

Cheers 

Peter
 

 

[Mr.Scott]

Yes, let us muddy the waters even more by dividing up leagues even further when we can't even positively prove the temp or type of cooling used as it is now.

Want to see better score and stats?  Up your game.

There should be only 2 leagues, 

Pro/sponsored

and everybody else.

Cooling method is irrelevant until it can be proven positively that your method is actually used in your subs.

[yosarianilives]

I think this is a common thread type, when people start hwbot they become discouraged because their ambient results can't compete with ln2. However the longer you sit at ambient you realize how stupid that ranking is as not everyone in it is really ambient so you switch over to the mindset that Mr Scott has here which is there should be sponsored rankings and not sponsored rankings as that's what really divides results at the top, not cooling. 

[Leeghoofd]

Ow and who's exactly sponsored according you guys? The Top 10 of Elite ? Some others are reviewers, that just post scores with ES samples. So that changes nearly nothing. if we put these peeps in a seperate class. If there are sponsored OCers in enthusiast than these should be honest and move themsleves to Elite

Thing is we hope to make a big announcement soon about the future HWBot and some stuff will be altered and more important fixed

One of my working points witll be providing points to everybody iso doing a cutoff at a certain percentage, but its too early days.... till then we have to sit and wait the outcome of current discussions....

Edited December 22, 2019 by Leeghoofd

[ADVenturePO]

4 hours ago, Mr.Scott said:

Yes, let us muddy the waters even more by dividing up leagues even further when we can't even positively prove the temp or type of cooling used as it is now.

Want to see better score and stats?  Up your game.

There should be only 2 leagues, 

Pro/sponsored

and everybody else.

Cooling method is irrelevant until it can be proven positively that your method is actually used in your subs.

No. I totally disagree. There is and will be a huge gap between cooling type. 
And also there is a question of utility of LN2 and LHe and other extreme cooling. 
This type of OC is an art for art. Nothing else. 
Enthusiast overclocking is a fun for much wider audience and for much more people.
You have 4 000 people in Extreme, Elite and Apprentice. 
24 000 in Enthusiast and they're going away due to the fact that fun has been lost.

You want more proof than pics and benchmate? Demand short video for even only one of records - that the machine is working on such cooling and that proves that the rest is true.
For over 3 years I'm adding pictures, and holding videos for 2 weeks to a month when doing Challenger. Videos can be uploaded on YT. You can demand link to this video for every Enthusiast benchmark score. 

Dear Mr. Scott,  don't let paranoia that everybody wants to cheat kill the fun of overclocking. 
Because for now I think it does. 

 And remind me: whats the difference between a guy who has it's own garage and OCes with LN2 for years and sponsored guy OCing for few? They're scores might be similar and result never achievable by standard LC / Air cooling. 
I don't see any point in that only two leagues. Pointless and without any logic purpose. 

Prove me wrong.  

[Mr.Scott]

1 hour ago, Leeghoofd said:

Ow and who's exactly sponsored according you guys? The Top 10 of Elite ? Some others are reviewers, that just post scores with ES samples. So that changes nearly nothing. if we put these peeps in a seperate class. If there are sponsored OCers in enthusiast than these should be honest and move themsleves to Elite

 

LOL

C'mon Alby, people are not even honest enough to declare the cooling that they're actually using, and you expect them to move themselves to the proper league?

 

[I.nfraR.ed]

Not to be the bad guy, and I could possibly be wrong, so excuse me if so.

But, did you buy 9900K, 3900X, 3960X, 3970X, boards for them and many more Xeon CPUs or do you just use your clients' machines before they take them?

Or you bin expensive CPUs to fulfill your clients' needs? 

Quote

So now I'm also selling Workstations as AD Venture. My clients are mainly Visualization Artists working in 3ds MAX and using CPU/GPU rendering engines.
I've also created few WS for scientific purposes - this explains KriegMath Benchmarks at WR..

How is this exactly fair to other Enthusiast or even Extreme overclockers who buy their hardware on retail prices from the stores?

Excuse me if my assumptions is wrong, but everyone visiting your profile can come to the same conclusion.

[Mr.Scott]

4 minutes ago, ADVenturePO said:

Dear Mr. Scott,  don't let paranoia that everybody wants to cheat kill the fun of overclocking. 
Because for now I think it does. 

 

You misunderstand. It's not everybody that cheats, but everybody suffers because of their actions.

It only takes one or two cheaters to ruin it for everybody. That's already a proven fact here for almost a decade.

[Mr.Scott]

5 minutes ago, I.nfraR.ed said:

Not to be the bad guy, and I could possibly be wrong, so excuse me if so.

But, did you buy 9900K, 3900X, 3960X, 3970X, boards for them and many more Xeon CPUs or do you just use your clients' machines before they take them?

Or you bin expensive CPUs to fulfill your clients' needs? 

How is this exactly fair to other Enthusiast or even Extreme overclockers who buy their hardware on retail prices from the stores?

Excuse me if my assumptions is wrong, but everyone visiting your profile can come to the same conclusion.

I see........

That is as close to sponsored without being sponsored as you can get. Another loophole that needs attention.

I'd love to bench on somebody else's dime.

[Mythical tech]

8 minutes ago, Mr.Scott said:

I see........

That is as close to sponsored without being sponsored as you can get. Another loophole that needs attention.

I'd love to bench on somebody else's dime.

That is why I do not use the oc clubs hardware even though I am technically the person who is in control of what happens with it I didn't pay for it and I don't own it I don't feel comfortable submitting results with  a 9900k and have 4 kits of bdie to bin when I didn't work to get that hardware. @ADVenturePOHere is what a lot of people told me when I first started. Don't get burned out by chasing points. I didn't get how I could get burned out doing something I love but during this country cup I understand how it happens. Between finals and work I was already tired and then when I was benching for 7x spi 32m I was having nothing but problems with getting the memory to work properly and I spent 48 straight hours trying to get it to work. I pushed myself to get a score and wasn't doing it for my own enjoyment and that is the first time I wanted to just give up and not keep benching. I have overclocked every system I can get my hands on I got my first real opportunity when I was in high school and the workstation had a 3770k and a stock Intel cooler I spent a semester tweaking the memory and cpu, I had just as much fun on an Intel stock cooler as I do with my cascade. If you can afford to overclock you can afford to go subzero and get more points. I built my first chiller for free out of parts that were free off Craigslist and it got below - 30c at 800 watt power draw. A lot of platforms don't scale below that and if all you care about is points then you can do a lot with a chiller. The rankings mean nothing beyond acting as something to motivate you to keep pushing yourself to improve. OC is something you should do for your own fun not for meaningless number next to your online name to less than a few thousand people most of which you will never meet. 

 

 

[yosarianilives]

Turns out elite league is not just for people with sponsored results, I've submitted sponsored scores and was told by mod staff not to move to elite. Elite is for people with close ties to industry, otherwise I'd be elite league already. Currently I just mark my subs on sponsored hardware as sponsored and I've been told that's all I should do. 

If that's the case then benching clients hw is not a loophole to avoid elite, however those subs should be marked as sponsored which will not put you in elite league. Basically elite league is only for current gen es and if hardware makers are sending you hardware. 

[Leeghoofd]

So define a close tie to the industry... Which mods are you referring to ?

Edited December 22, 2019 by Leeghoofd

[ADVenturePO]

9 hours ago, Mr.Scott said:

I see........

That is as close to sponsored without being sponsored as you can get. Another loophole that needs attention.

I'd love to bench on somebody else's dime.

Oh no my friends  I do have income from Workstations, and in fact I do own this whole bunch of hardware.
From Xeons V1 2690 to 2699 v4 
i9-7980XE , i9-9900K, 3800x,  over 50 CPU for LGA 775/771 
Whole bunch of Gene. OC Formula, APEX and Deluxe  and now I bought 3960x and 3970x with MSI Pro 10G and Zenith Extreme II   .

How the hell did you think I made every Challanger in 3 days? 

You're jealous? Your problem.

Sponsored? Ho ho ho. NO.

Sponsored is when someone is coming to ya and says I'll give you this and this for free and just make the score, or someone is coming and saying : I'll pay 5000USD, compensate costs od LN2/LHe just do a nice score for me so the portals could write about.

 

[ADVenturePO]

And as for @Mythical tech . Thank You for you whole say, but mind that 99% on this planet will not use any cascade, not to mention LN2/LHe.
I don't really give any care about LN2 scores. Art for Art. Might be useful when AI will overtake and send dies into space.  
Right now it's just pure fun. 
 

Edited December 22, 2019 by ADVenturePO

[ADVenturePO]

9 hours ago, I.nfraR.ed said:

Not to be the bad guy, and I could possibly be wrong, so excuse me if so.

But, did you buy 9900K, 3900X, 3960X, 3970X, boards for them and many more Xeon CPUs or do you just use your clients' machines before they take them?

Or you bin expensive CPUs to fulfill your clients' needs? 

Quote

So now I'm also selling Workstations as AD Venture. My clients are mainly Visualization Artists working in 3ds MAX and using CPU/GPU rendering engines.
I've also created few WS for scientific purposes - this explains KriegMath Benchmarks at WR..

How is this exactly fair to other Enthusiast or even Extreme overclockers who buy their hardware on retail prices from the stores?

Excuse me if my assumptions is wrong, but everyone visiting your profile can come to the same conclusion.

Oh no. I do buy my stuff on retail prices at stores. It's just that I can keep a lot of it. Yes some times after a year or two I'm selling this stuff.
No. My clients cant have Sport Overclocking WS - why ? Because it's not always stable. You know what is the difference between Sport OC and 24h/7 OC? 300-400MHz.
Usually 150mV and about 30 deg. C. 
My clients are getting from 15-35% faster machines but they're not getting the same as I've scored on HWBOT - it's even in my offer

How is it fair? Well I could get better car... but my passion is OC so I'm investing in hardware. That's what Enthusiast do.
Invested in products,  made my own cooling, bought a lot of bench tables.
Like automobile enthusiasts - they buy cars and stuff.
Is your "Enthusiast guy" is a guy with one rig, one CPU at the time, one GPU... than I'm sorry, I don;t know this guy

  

Edited December 22, 2019 by ADVenturePO

[Mythical tech]

2 minutes ago, ADVenturePO said:

And as for @Mythical tech . Thank You for you whole say, but mind that 99% on this plane will not use any cascade, not to mention LN2/LHe.
I don't really give any care about LN2 scores. Art for Art. Might be useful when AI will overtake and send dies into space.  
Right now it's just pure fun. 
 

It should always be done for fun and if someone is offering you money or other compensation for it even better but the leagues are almost always going to feel unfair if separated by cooling methods. If someone is on air and can't afford a high end water cooling setup or they live in Australia where is is 40c out when it is - 5c for me that is a huge difference between the two even though it is both ambient cooling. If someone in Australia is using a fishtank chiller they are going to feel like it is unfair that even if it is the same temperature as it is for me during the winter that they are put against people using dice. In the extreme league I am put against people using liquid nitrogen which is 90c colder than my cascade. My solution is to bench devil's and 775 because its cold bug is usually very close to that of my cascade. If you are on water look at the database and find something worth points using water or air. Hd 4350 the top scores are all on ambient cooling and is worth over 30 points. Or 2500k, 2600k, 2700k are worth lots of points and have a high cold bug. It is about what you are willing to learn for points and if you want to get points put in the work if not then just do it for fun and don't worry about the leagues. 

[ADVenturePO]

Exactly  Thank You very much @Mythical tech  for this.
That's what is going on: we, Enthusiasts are mostly using hardware that is not taken by Extreme. We have to choose carefully - if Extreme can do it, we f*cked. What's a fun in that?
It's not normal overclocking - you take a hardware and squeeze  most of it. It's "choosing hardware that is not interesting for Elite/Extreme/Apprentice. 
That's not competition  
That's not free and delightful overclocking for points and this is not any direct competition.
Oh yes. Forgot: "THE ONLY WAY TO OC IS LN2 OR LHe" and everybody else are just scavengers

Nice. But i have noted that those LN2 machines can run 30min-1h and they have to taken care of... well mine can run for weeks,  months years...
99% of people who want's a nice PC would think like to know the real score. Real achievable score that they can achieve when investing in cooling, not the 30 min short run project score. 


 

[Mr.Scott]

1 minute ago, ADVenturePO said:

Nice. But i have noted that those LN2 machines can run 30min-1h and they have to taken care of... well mine can run for weeks,  months years...
99% of people who want's a nice PC would think like to know the real score. Real achievable score that they can achieve when investing in cooling, not the 30 min short run project score. 


 

So now you're saying that everybody should only bench 24/7 stable machines?

LOL. You're looking for personal utopia. You're not speaking for Enthusiasts at all.

[Mythical tech]

3 minutes ago, ADVenturePO said:

Exactly  Thank You very much @Mythical tech  for this.
That's what is going on: we, Enthusiasts are mostly using hardware that is not taken by Extreme. We have to choose carefully - if Extreme can do it, we f*cked. What's a fun in that?
It's not normal overclocking - you take a hardware and squeeze  most of it. It's "choosing hardware that is not interesting for Elite/Extreme/Apprentice. 
That's not competition  
That's not free and delightful overclocking for points and this is not any direct competition.
Oh yes. Forgot: "THE ONLY WAY TO OC IS LN2 OR LHe" and everybody else are just scavengers

Nice. But i have noted that those LN2 machines can run 30min-1h and they have to taken care of... well mine can run for weeks,  months years...
99% of people who want's a nice PC would think like to know the real score. Real achievable score that they can achieve when investing in cooling, not the 30 min short run project score. 


 

You can run ln2 24/7 if you are willing to pay the expenses. I think ldl cooling did a ln2 loop that could be run 24/7

[Mythical tech]

1 minute ago, Mr.Scott said:

So now you're saying that everybody should only bench 24/7 stable machines?

LOL. You're looking for personal utopia. You're not speaking for Enthusiasts at all.

Every one is so worried about everyone else and don't just enjoy the hobby. It is like someone who is into cycling complaining that they have to get an expensive bike to compete in Tour d France 

[ADVenturePO]

9 hours ago, Mr.Scott said:

You misunderstand. It's not everybody that cheats, but everybody suffers because of their actions.

It only takes one or two cheaters to ruin it for everybody. That's already a proven fact here for almost a decade.

Oh no @Mr.Scott I think you misunderstand. The best Enthusiasts here can prove their full clarity by all means. If it will be demanded we'll do it. 
We don't give a dime about people who cheats. We will eventually find them and bring them to justice. We want our own competition. The security demands might be higher.
We want our fun and competitive spirit of overclocking back. 
I'd love to get few of my colleagues into competition,   but seeing the scores... I wouldn't give a duck too. 

Be the best of Enthusiast with a CPU benchmark! Get those 2 points... Wow. Really? I'm so thrilled. Wohhoooa. 2 points. You're so kind!

Oh. Yes, my young padawan, wisely must you choose hardware for benchmarks. As no points you can get if Extreme can OC it. 

Oh. Come on. Don't bullshit me you don;t know what I'm saying. 
   

 

[ADVenturePO]

7 hours ago, Mr.Scott said:

So now you're saying that everybody should only bench 24/7 stable machines?

LOL. You're looking for personal utopia. You're not speaking for Enthusiasts at all.

No man, you're still out of my thought. Enthusiast League should use cooling (as we do) for 24/7 usage. 

Edited December 23, 2019 by ADVenturePO

[ADVenturePO]

7 hours ago, Mythical tech said:

You can run ln2 24/7 if you are willing to pay the expenses. I think ldl cooling did a ln2 loop that could be run 24/7

OMG. Yes - for 120K USD yes and this is neither standard, nor LC no AIR. 

[Mr.Scott]

I 

1 minute ago, ADVenturePO said:

Oh no @Mr.Scott I think you misunderstand. The best Enthusiasts here can prove their full clarity by all means. If it will be demanded we'll do it. 
We don't give a dime about people who cheats. We will eventually find them and bring them to justice. We want our own competition. The security demands might be higher.
We want our fun and competitive spirit of overclocking back. 
I'd love to get few of my colleagues into competition,   but seeing the scores... I wouldn't give a duck too. 

Be the best of Enthusiast with a CPU benchmark! Get those 2 points... Wow. Really? I'm so thrilled. Wohhoooa. 2 points. You're so kind!

Oh. Yes, my young padawan, wisely must you choose hardware for benchmarks. As no points you can get if Extreme can OC it. 

Oh. Come on. Don't bullshit me you don;t know what I'm saying. 
   

 

I gave up taking you seriously a couple posts ago.

Have a spectacular evening.

[ADVenturePO]

@Mr.Scott Have you ever heard about sarcasm? Go Google or Wiki. Please.