HWBOT Rev.4 - The Plan.

[TheKarmakazi]

Where does this quest for levelling the field end? First it was money (multiple GPU setups less attractive). Now its the size of the teams that come into play. Whats next? Put a max on the time each member can spend to produce results?

 

^ This. The playing field will never be level and 100% fair. Thats the way of the world. Any attempt to completely equalize everyone is a idealist fantasy. If you dont have the $$$ to compete at the top, you can grind older hardware.

 

If this team points rule goes through as is, I will continue to bench and grind. I just will not be posting anything in here about it... In fact, I would lose interest in logging in at all. Your hearts are in the right place in terms of attempting to stop cheating, but your heads are up your asses.

 

+1 if this revision goes through with only "best" submission per category per team, I will continue benching but you wont find me on hwbot anymore.

 

Not to sure you would want that to happen

 

I know the guys at OCA very well. Even though you later post that your comment was not aimed at them, it clearly was. Otherwise why would they not "want that to happen." They spend tons of hard earned dough on this hobby and dont deserve crap from some troll like you. I really admired the ethical path you took regarding samples and not competing with them, but I just lost my respect for you from this and your subsequent posts.

 

Bill, for the love of all things overclocking please stop hyping up whatever dirt you have and just spill it. First you claim you were waiting on hosting. Did you know Blogger and Wordpress offer free hosting? I just spent 30 seconds registering http://benchzowner.blogspot.com/ for you and another 10 minutes populating it with creative content I feel is similar to what you'll be posting. Feel free to contact me for the login credentials.

 

This is hilarious, thanx for giving this depressing discussion a little brevity.

 

Can you add an extra feature that allows us to download all our screen shots and images to make the transition to a new benching site easier?

 

If their was another benching site, maybe hwbot would take the opinion of the community more seriously...

 

Would you really like to pay for the use of this site? If that is the case, we should consider that as a one option.

 

The idea have been opposite from the beginning. Users should not be the ones who pay the costs of running this site. And there is 26 000 + users and maybe 1000 would pay and rest would not. People like it, when you get it free. No matter what it is..

 

So..there is a problem but it might not be easy to solve without manufacturers as a sponsors.

 

I have supported this site with 10 euros per year since I joined. I have no problems paying for a service I use regularly which bring me fun and competition. And Im sure many more people feel the same.

Edited September 20, 2010 by TheKarmakazi

[zoro]

Sponsorship is a reality nowdays. It keeps the internet "free" with the drawback of advertisement. But it's fine by me.

i really don't like for this site to lost it's "free" sense

the side team ranking with HM is great idea!

[Evocarlos]

my feelings can be denoted by my avatar

[OptyTrooper]

Valid points Kenny and bazx.

 

 

 

I need to reply to this.

 

Rev4 is end product of our constand development. I feel bad to watch when some people think that Pieter is just greedy and alone behind all these changes. It is not like that at all.

 

Manufacturers should take part in to funding this site, cause they use this site for their marketing anyway. If we let them do that without any fee, we would be just bunch of fools.

 

I am tightly connected to HWbot and I have large part on this new revision. The UFL is made to make community happy. I personally have been feeling a bit bad sometimes, when you push your hardware to limit, someone hit it down with some comment about ES samples etc. It is not any less valuable result, if it is done with some non retail parts, but of course it will annoy some users.

 

So, there is a solution for this and it is UFL. There all manufacturer puppets can figth between each other and they does not mess the XOL league at all. That way normal users does not have to directly compete with Hicookie or Nickshih, but they can compete in their own league. In every league the level of support and hardware should be quite equal.

 

We can never find 100% balance in to these, but we need to have some faith.

 

All these changes are end results of very long conversations and development. These all are made to change this hobby in to right direction and I really think this is the step, which is needed.

 

Please, no more personal attacks to Massman, cause he is indeed working for this site, but he is not behind all "evil" If you guys can do correct critisism and ideas, we can take them in to account. If this conversations turns to be BS all the time, no ideas can be takend from it.

 

So, think before you post and try to see larger picture!

 

Thanks!

 

My comment was in no way a "personal" attack against Massman. I am simply calling a spade a spade. If the manufacturers are allowed undue influence upon the direction of the ranking and point system then I'd gladly pay a fee to offset said influence. Notice I said if. I am accusing no one. Massman already addressed me about that much earlier in the thread and I retracted my comment and even apologized for inferring different. I don't come here to complain I come here to bench keep that in mind. Unlike some others benching is a large part of my life just like anyone else who is dedicated to the sport of their choosing I am passionate about it and I don't like the direction my sport is going with this rev. so I am making my voice heard. I'm also egotistical so I will continue to bench b/c I am just that damn good and as I accumulate more hardware and knowledge continue racking up points regardless. This site was built in a very large part on the backs of little guys who bench hand me downs and rummage sale finds and you, Massman and everyone else on the staff would do well to remember such. If the current rev. goes through as is I predict the death of HWBOT as a legitimate platform for competitive benching within a year. I don't think anyone users, staff or manufacturers want that. Perhaps you should let the sponsors see the countless legitimate objections to this move and say "The majority of our members are not so happy about this maybe we need to go back to the drawing board because if your looking for fresh blood any time soon this move will kill that".

Edited September 20, 2010 by OptyTrooper

[bazx]

Valid points Kenny and bazx.

 

 

 

I need to reply to this.

 

Rev4 is end product of our constand development. I feel bad to watch when some people think that Pieter is just greedy and alone behind all these changes. It is not like that at all.

 

Manufacturers should take part in to funding this site, cause they use this site for their marketing anyway. If we let them do that without any fee, we would be just bunch of fools.

 

I am tightly connected to HWbot and I have large part on this new revision. The UFL is made to make community happy. I personally have been feeling a bit bad sometimes, when you push your hardware to limit, someone hit it down with some comment about ES samples etc. It is not any less valuable result, if it is done with some non retail parts, but of course it will annoy some users.

 

So, there is a solution for this and it is UFL. There all manufacturer puppets can figth between each other and they does not mess the XOL league at all. That way normal users does not have to directly compete with Hicookie or Nickshih, but they can compete in their own league. In every league the level of support and hardware should be quite equal.

 

We can never find 100% balance in to these, but we need to have some faith.

 

All these changes are end results of very long conversations and development. These all are made to change this hobby in to right direction and I really think this is the step, which is needed.

 

Please, no more personal attacks to Massman, cause he is indeed working for this site, but he is not behind all "evil" If you guys can do correct critisism and ideas, we can take them in to account. If this conversations turns to be BS all the time, no ideas can be takend from it.

 

So, think before you post and try to see larger picture!

 

Thanks!

 

i would like to invite you to a meeting @benchtec to explain to the team that they have nothing to fear form rev 4

 

This would go a long way to helping my team understand your plans

 

i understand it will take some of your time so i would be very grateful if you could attend

 

if you pm me a day this week or next that you will be free to answer question i will setup a forum notify the team that you are coming to explain rev 4 and how it will benefit them

Because as this stands now they do not understand at all the need for this change

[Guest TheMadDutchDude]

I've been reading through the recent posts...

 

I'd happily pay to use the service. £10 a year? £20 a year? You've got my support without a question asked. However, I'd like Rev.3 to stay!

 

i would like to invite you to a meeting @benchtec to explain to the team that they have nothing to fear form rev 4

 

This would go a long way to helping my team understand your plans

 

i understand it will take some of your time so i would be very grateful if you could attend

 

if you pm me a day this week or next that you will be free to answer question i will setup a forum notify the team that you are coming to explain rev 4 and how it will benefit them

Because as this stands now they do not understand at all the need for this change

 

Thank-you Baz. If you're holding a get together I'd like to be there! It isn't clear to me at all.

[SF3D]

I find it this way. Team is as strong as it's best players. So, in this new plan only the best scores will get points and rest will go to user account only. This way only the teams with strong players will be on top. I find this fair solution, cause you can find strong players from every country.

 

I think UFL users should affect Team rankings, so the playground is quite fair.

 

I don't like the current situation where you can push with the mass. If some team have some good setup, it can be "sold" around and team will earn huge amount of points. That is irritating our users and leading in to constant reports about hardware sharing.

 

So, I still think the new version of team rankings is good. Now the good teams can show their talent and the teams with mass power will not be on the top. It was the same with hardware points before. When it was not limited in overclockers league, some user with 2000 hardware points were in the lead without any overclocking involved.

 

I hope you can rethink this, so I don't have to fly in to UK. I don't mean, that I wouldn't like to come haha!

[Guest TheMadDutchDude]

I find it this way. Team is as strong as it's best players. So, in this new plan only the best scores will get points and rest will go to user account only. This way only the teams with strong players will be on top. I find this fair solution, cause you can find strong players from every country.

 

I think UFL users should affect Team rankings, so the playground is quite fair.

 

I don't like the current situation where you can push with the mass. If some team have some good setup, it can be "sold" around and team will earn huge amount of points. That is irritating our users and leading in to constant reports about hardware sharing.

 

So, I still think the new version of team rankings is good. Now the good teams can show their talent and the teams with mass power will not be on the top. It was the same with hardware points before. When it was not limited in overclockers league, some user with 2000 hardware points were in the lead without any overclocking involved.

 

I hope you can rethink this, so I don't have to fly in to UK. I don't mean, that I wouldn't like to come haha!

 

I am only 17, I find it hard enough to get the money for the parts to be able to help out my team. I am currently sitting here with a few CPU's and my benching rig. Now, if I were to use dry ice which costs me £50 for two days "entertainment", it is all wasted as I am essentially competing against no-one else but myself for scores and points. My team won't benefit from my sessions as I can't afford to bin 50 intel celeron CPU's to find ONE CPU which will do the CPU-Z world record just so that I can obtain some points for my team.

 

I feel this is wrong. In a big way. I am all for competing etc. however, if it means I am competing against myself, why bother?

 

Okay, here is my argument. I'm sure many others will agree.

 

So you're saying only the big boys in the team get to contribute towards the teams score? Plain wrong. It's a team effort. Not a 5 man army of who can afford/bench the most gear!

[Gomeler]

Big flaw for Rev 4..

 

PURE breaks up into 10 separate teams of 2, plans accordingly and keeps all other teams out of the top 10. You've been warned

Edited September 20, 2010 by Gomeler
misplaced comma. gtfo excessive commas!

[Guest TheMadDutchDude]

Big flaw for Rev 4..

 

PURE breaks up into 10 separate teams of 2, plans accordingly and keeps all other teams out of the top 10. You've been warned

 

Good thinking. Never thought of this!

 

Rev.4 just spells FAIL all over for me.

[El Gappo]

My views don't represent BT in anyway and I'm moody bitch but... TBH what is getting on my nerves is all this drama over es cpu's and sponsored overclockers, not being able to compete etc, so you go and make a new league.. Un-needed but fair enough. Then you go and only award team points to those people....

 

Is there a reason for teams to pursue new members/benchers after this? Or trying to eek out points on a single stage? Sure doesn't look like it...

 

I think you need to build on this revision rather than demolish it, it's working well, add new features, leagues and achievements etc etc etc Just don't change the way everyone benches again.

 

All I see is pure on top again and not a hope in hell of any non manufactured team getting close.

________

HOMEMADE VAPORIZER

Edited May 13, 2011 by El Gappo

[bazx]

I find it this way. Team is as strong as it's best players. So, in this new plan only the best scores will get points and rest will go to user account only. This way only the teams with strong players will be on top. I find this fair solution, cause you can find strong players from every country.

 

I think UFL users should affect Team rankings, so the playground is quite fair.

 

I don't like the current situation where you can push with the mass. If some team have some good setup, it can be "sold" around and team will earn huge amount of points. That is irritating our users and leading in to constant reports about hardware sharing.

 

So, I still think the new version of team rankings is good. Now the good teams can show their talent and the teams with mass power will not be on the top. It was the same with hardware points before. When it was not limited in overclockers league, some user with 2000 hardware points were in the lead without any overclocking involved.

 

I hope you can rethink this, so I don't have to fly in to UK. I don't mean, that I wouldn't like to come haha!

 

 

lol you dont need to come to the UK just the benchtec forum

 

it will be good for you to see all the benchers there that have worked so hard as a team

being told that they are no longer needed

[Barisan]

as u all can see from title, this is my oppinion about Rev. 4 of HWBOT. I am just, in new revision known, EL overclocker. The most of the proposals int this revision are in basic not bad, but between the lines is visible who conduct the tempo in new orchestra. I am a bit upset ant do not want to discuss wery long, it is too much points to be embedded

 

To create a UFL is perfect for MFC and people supported or paid from, and to use HWBOT as marketing platform.

 

XOL - Who dares winns, also nice place for MFC to show additional presence and for chosen one to be glorious. Here comes one who is sponsored, born with crown or spmply with fat wallet. This league is also holy cow of HWBOT.

 

EL - this point of plan is the most discriminating chapter of Rev. 4 for allmoust all members of HWBOT. In this league have to be all OC-er which are not chosen to be in UFL or in XOL and they are used as balance waste. The members of EL are due to new regulations excluded from all and punished for beeing here. They are limited to ambient cooling, on average frequencies of used HW and loosing points for smooth transition. I see only - Forbiden, forbiden, forbiden. This league is caponized and reserved for balance waste. Be honest, and tell me what should be overclocked there? Dishwasher?

 

Sorry for distinct cynicism, but to publish something like this is more as unapologetic. Transparency and clearnes are desired (even dictated), justice as well, and more competition between teams too, but they way (undemocratic, exclusive single oriented) u want to reach this is defenetely wrong. As alredy mentioned in one of the post in the last days, the price of developing and evolution is high, but some stupid antique civilisation wrote "Vox populi, vox Dei". Maybe u should hear on.

 

Thank u for the time spend reading.

 

Have a nice day

[SF3D]

bazx- I have seen how your team works. I give credit from it to your team members.

 

Barisan- Nothing is forcing you to stay in ambient cooling. If you use other methods, you can go to XOL and have fun like so far. We are not going to choose people or try to force them to be in some league. Manufacturers are asked to focus on UFL. They should not mess up the XOL. User reports will come to us really fast, if something suspicious appears.

 

So, there is not that much change in the end. Basically we give everyone a better chance to show their abilities. If you are using aircooled setups it is impossible to compete against dry ice or ln2. Now you can compete with other users with same cooling methods.

 

Actually revision3 was huge change for HWbot. WR points and single GPU weighting made dramatic changes. This seems to be a bit more dramatic, but not too much in my opinion.

[OptyTrooper]

I keep reading posts where this rev. 4 is referred too in the present tense by staff. We might as well come to terms with the fact that this has already been decided by the powers that be and give our fingers and minds a rest. I have a new NF4 Ultra-D to go play with so enjoy pissing in the wind lads and lassies I have better things too do.

[TaPaKaH]

...already updated my excels for rev4

[SF3D]

I keep reading posts where this rev. 4 is referred too in the present tense by staff. We might as well come to terms with the fact that this has already been decided by the powers that be and give our fingers and minds a rest. I have a new NF4 Ultra-D to go play with so enjoy pissing in the wind lads and lassies I have better things too do.

 

Nothing have been written in to stone yet.

 

That was the reason Massman put this up. We would like to hear opinions about Rev.4.

Too bad, that there is only certain groups giving input. If all people would share ideas now, it would be a lot easier too see flaws.

[chew*]

[quote=TheKarmakazi;71606I know the guys at OCA very well. Even though you later post that your comment was not aimed at them, it clearly was. Otherwise why would they not "want that to happen." They spend tons of hard earned dough on this hobby and dont deserve crap from some troll like you. I really admired the ethical path you took regarding samples and not competing with them, but I just lost my respect for you from this and your subsequent posts.

 

Forget the OCA guys lets not point at anyone in particular.......

 

Lets look at the facts however.

 

How many Private team sections are you aware of karma?

 

How many do you have acess to?

 

Do you honestly think that if there was sharing going on people would broadcast it on open forums or tell an outsider?

 

Do you honestly think that if they were doing it they would not have some bogus receipts to cover there ass and say they bought it used?

 

Do you honestly think I would post that i'm aware of sharing going on with out having preety damn good proof?

 

Do you honestly think the source wants to be public?

 

Not sure without any of the acess pointed out above you are able to make claims about any team including XS playing this game clean.

 

You can lose all the respect for me you want, no skin off my back, on the same token I thought you were a preety smart guy and could pick up on the obvious.

 

All the above complications are just a heap of freaking work for the mods.........only to on a technicality becasue they can't prove a receipt is bogus to not do anything about it......

 

That said they are fixing loopsholes being exploited.

Edited September 20, 2010 by chew*

[Barisan]

@SF3D

if I decide to use SS, DICE or LN2 for cooling method, so far I understud, I am loosing my points from EL. Correct if I expressed me wrong, but this is ...

[sacha35]

So if I have this right, the top overclockers from each team will represent their team, is this right?

 

If it is then we only need to look at the overclocker's leader board and pick the top teams from this, which it would not be as it is the individual not a team effort.

 

As for hardware, sharing why not implement hardware numbers from the parts used this would then show that every bencher has the hardware and it is not being borrowed. Again, it would not stop top parts being shared but think it would be a good direction to start with.

 

The use of ES parts, this is a big problem, you can ban the use of ES parts is one solution, but for some reason there are even results shown at HWBOT with 2.4ES Gulftowns that are not available to anyone other than Manufactures.

 

How is it that HWBOT is indorsing the use of these CPU's when they do not represent anything you can buy?

 

Sorry people but this looks like a big fail for the Bot as most overclockers around the globe will not bother anymore, only the top people from the overclocking league will represent their team.

 

If HWBOT implement this new REV4 why don't they just pick the teams from the league of overclockers they have now.

[bazx]

with rev 4

 

 

 

to be at the top of the team league now you only need 5 members

 

say fully supported by gigabyte with endless hardware maybe have some guys that work there for good measure just to make sure you get the full wax

 

and that's it, gigabyte are the top of the team league

 

and not to forget that gigabyte get to rule the single ranking as they do now by paying one of there employees to bench all day

 

 

 

and gigabyte are your main sponsor

[Leeghoofd]

You are looking at it only from your perspective, which is understandable... But try a bit more open view of things...

 

For the hardware c'mon... think BT got most manufacturers covered Getting freebies ain't easy, let alone a dozen of GPU's, motherboards... I think the teams that have access to that are really limited, if not individuals only...

 

Numbers, serials, receipts even videos ain't gonna cut it... you know that too. It has been tried in the passed and it failed...

 

What are some of the goals of this rev ? To put a damper on hardware sharing. To give teams with lesser members also a chance to strive for top 10-20.

 

My questions to you :

 

How do you want to achieve it ?

How to make OCing more attractive

How to improve this REV without tearing it down without even thinking about it... ?

Edited September 20, 2010 by Leeghoofd

[bazx]

once the penny drops with the other teams in the top ten now

 

that they will be gone after rev 4

 

we might see some progress in this thread

[Hyperhorn]

@Hwbot staff: I´m pretty sure you´re rolling your eyes about some comments here, but no matter how annoying it seems, please keep in mind that if people are fighting for something it also means they appreciate or even love it.

@Folks: Fighting in a metaphorical sense is ok, fighting in the strict sense of the word not.

 

@Hwbot staff (again): If you say hardware sharing is a major problem, do you mean the amount of reported scores due to hardware sharing claims is borderline (not able to check quantity-wise) or do you mean the cases where you removed scores because of hardware sharing are way too much (for a healthy competition) or do you mean that the results YOU think are based on hardware sharing, but can´t prove it are spreaded too much?

 

A thing I´m really confused about: Why do you try to make something like hardware sharing which is hard to control non-beneficial, if you try to found a new league which is based so much on trust only? I see a major problem regarding non-aircooled setups, but pics including aircooling only and downclocking for screenshots. In the past I heard from staff members, that own cooling categories/leagues will not be succesful, because you can´t control it. I can also remember you refused the idea of a lowclock/fixed-clock competition category/league, because down-clocking is so easy. (reminder: Super Pi 32M @ H55 mini-itx - allegations were there, just a few weeks ago) While I´m a big fan of fixed-clock competitions I think you had a valid point here. Ok, I know maybe we shouldn´t care about it because it is the beginner`s league, but I have a feeling that just because of this reason (WR scores are watched by thousands, 38th best score in a hardware category obviously by a few - and those might not have the experience to detect weird things) it will be less controllable. ...and if somebody deserves a by-the-book-competition then who else, but the beginners? Also what do you think about stricter punishments for UFL (and/or XOL) members?

 

Quote of an older text I wrote about it, but never recieved feedback (Notice "Pros" means UFL (and/or XOL) members now):

Given the new circumstances around Futuremark´s Lords of Overclocking competition I´ve asked myself if it could be a good idea to tighten the punishment for the pro members compared to the rest of the users if they perform a massive irregularity. I´m not saying a bigger punishment is a better solution in relation to the kind/time period of punishment, but I have a feeling that we should discharge those in their duties, who consider themselves "pros". If you´re at that stage you should know how to act professionally not only with your OC setups, but also with your responsibility to the guys who may be looking up to you and trust you. I know that some of the newcomers can´t estimate what they´re doing by moving some pixels on a screenshot or sharing results, that it can break friendships and dissapoint many people, so I wouldn´t extend the ban period for those. But if you´re a pro you usually follow what´s going on in the OC scene, who did this and that, why person X is banned and you might even know many guys from live events, hardware expos and so on - plus you´re usually using subzero cooling and expirienced enough to be able to win well-known competitions to get prizes and so on. Let´s say basically you know what you are doing, if you violate the rules. People on this level try to get review samples, exclusive connections to a manufacturer or even a job based on their ability to push a system to its limit. If you´re violating the rules on this level it will have effects in the real life of yourself or other people, even if it may not be obvious on the first (or even second) look.

 

I mean the reason why hardware sharing is so attractive nowadays is connected to the rev. 3 scaling based on popularity. As you know I never declared against rev. 3 (but tried to give some input about fine-tuning and issues which might happen, sadly I did not have the problem hardware sharing in mind back then) and I will not do about rev. 4 either, but closing loopholes on one side, but create new ones on the other is a great danger if it might be necessary to push rev. 5 forward to close new (old) loopholes.

[K404]

To be disapassionate... who cares if a team only has a few members? Thats their problem. Recruit people..... everyone starts off small.

 

No-ones gonna change the layout of the Premiership so that... hmmmm..... Macclesfield Town can compete with Man United on a more level standing

Edited September 20, 2010 by K404