der8auer Posted October 2, 2015 Posted October 2, 2015 So we're currently working on a new Team Ranking to improve your HWBOT-Experience. I will just quote myself from an internal discussion: If I compare the currente extreme oc scene to the scene 5-6 years ago I can see one main difference. I started 2007/2008 and back then the new PC Games Hardware Team recruited me. The goal was to push the team into the Top 100 of the team league. We acted as a team and benched for the team. Everyone tried to help the teammates, wrote articles and tweaking-guides. Compared to HardwareLuxx and Awardfabrik we were a fairly small and new team but still we had a chance because we benched every single piece of hardware we could find and we were much more motivated and active.Back in these days each single point counted to the team total so every single result helped the team. Even if it was a random run with a mobile core 2 duo. So we tried to motivate and recruit as much as possible to push our team. With revision 4 we changed the team-ranking mainly because of hardware sharing. It was the right decision to change the team-ranking, however it demotivated a lot of guys in our team. The average overclocker couldn't help us anymore so we also kinda stopped recruiting everyone. From my point of view the team ist the most important part to bring new people to the hobby and also keep the the motivation up for long-term members. Without my team I would probably not be here now. From 2007 to 2015 we mainly changed HWBot from a team-based sport to an individual sport. I like almost all changes we did over the past years but we completely moved away from the team-focus. Today there is absolutely 0 point to bench for the team. The team-ranking is so bad that nobody even considers to bench for it. There is also no point to start a new team. Conclusion: Focus on teams My idea was to go away from a pure hw/global-point based ranking to a competitive ranking. Short explanation: - The final team-ranking is based on the team-ranking in each benchmark - Benchmark rankings are an average of the top 20 results with 20 unique pieces of hardware (the final amount can still be discussed ofc ) Example: SuperPi32m Team A 1. User#1 - 6min 0s with 4770K 2. User#2 - 5min 30s with 4790K 3. User#3 - 5min 40s with 4690K ... .. . Team average: 7min 10s SuperPi32m Team B 1. User#1 - 6min 10s with 4770K 2. User#2 - 5min 40s with 4790K 3. User#3 - 7min 0s with 4690K ... .. . Team average: 9min 20s Team Ranking SuperPi32m: 1. Team A 7min 10s (50 Points) 2. Team B 9min 20s (40 Points) 3. Team C 10min 0s (35 Points) ... .. . Total Team Ranking (based on the Team Ranking of the individual Benchmarks) 1. Team B 450 Points 2. Team A 420 Points 3. Team X 80 Points 4. Team C 35 Points ... .. . I first wanted to see top 20 scores using 20 unique hardware and 20 unique users. However, you can just create a new user in the end to fool the system so it's easier for us to allow everyone to submit as much as they want. From my point of view this ranking is much more competitive and will need more teamwork than before Massman is currently working on an example based on few benchmarks to show you how it would look like. This is just a draft. Nothing is set in stone yet. I'd like to hear your opinions and ideas about this. Quote
ObscureParadox Posted October 2, 2015 Posted October 2, 2015 Not going to lie, didn't understand this at all but if run on the test server I'm sure I might understand it better. But using top 20 scores, does this mean that smaller teams like classicplatforms are now going to suffer compared to the giants like OCN? Also using an average you could be in a small team where 8 Pack submits a WR score for 3D11 for example and most of the other users are only able to run on 5870s so then we get a lower overall average right? If this is correct then for me it only really seems to encourage those who have the wallets to spend on as many newer pieces of kit as possible so people like CP are really going to struggle again here. I mean forgive me if I'm wrong but this formula seems to only cater for newer hardware and leaves older hardware in the dust a bit? Quote
der8auer Posted October 2, 2015 Author Posted October 2, 2015 It's quite hard to explain - I have to admit that. Take a look at the example above. 20 scores are necessary to have a full average score. You need 20 different pieces of hardware to have the full average score. So: 6700K 6600K 4770K 4790K 3770K 4820K 5930K 5960X 3570K 2600K 2500K 980X E8600 ....and so on until you have 20 scores with different CPUs. The real amount is not set in stone like I said and could also be adjusted to e. g. 10. However, the more scores are required, the more legacy hardware is necassary which will keep the game interesting. Also You will notice that expensive hardware will only help a little bit. For the SuperPi32m ranking maybe 50% can be done with recent hardware of the last 3 years. Everything else needs older components which are quite cheap. The slow scores will have a huge influence in the average so the legacy and cheap hardware will become much more important than it is at the moment (which will be interesting for e. g. classicplattforms). The team size doesn't matter at all. You can be first in the ranking no matter if 5 people are in the team or 500. All you need is a lot of good scores with a lot of different (and also old) hardware. Quote
GENiEBEN Posted October 2, 2015 Posted October 2, 2015 Uhm I think cheap means something else to you, you just listed top-tier cpus from each generation. Hoping it looks better in practice than on paper. Quote
Mr.Scott Posted October 2, 2015 Posted October 2, 2015 Subbed. Based on the limited info here, need to see an example please. Thanks for thinking of us Lewis. Quote
saint19 Posted October 2, 2015 Posted October 2, 2015 Like @ObscureParadox says, that model seems more a "wallet" model that anything else...what with the people that only buy 1 CPU per generation? Like me... Quote
Johan45 Posted October 2, 2015 Posted October 2, 2015 Couldn't this possibly encourage more HW sharing to keep the top scores very close? Quote
Mr.Scott Posted October 2, 2015 Posted October 2, 2015 Couldn't this possibly encourage more HW sharing to keep the top scores very close? Absolutely. Quote
nickolp1974 Posted October 2, 2015 Posted October 2, 2015 Is it me? Or would this not alienate people below extreme league status? Because if an average score is taken then why would you want people with lesser cooling solutions in your "team", wouldn't this kinda do the exact opposite of what we all want to achieve and thats to welcome new and up-coming people to the sport/hobby, without them it will die a quick death. I personally feel the current system is fine with a good balance that suits all from the rookies to the classic benchers to the pro's but i'll keep an eye on this thread as its got my interest. Quote
JunkDogg Posted October 2, 2015 Posted October 2, 2015 Why fuck with something that isn't broken? Quote
der8auer Posted October 2, 2015 Author Posted October 2, 2015 Couldn't this possibly encourage more HW sharing to keep the top scores very close? No. You can only submit once with one piece of hardware. E. g. 6700K can only be once in the SuperPi ranking. No Hardware sharing possible. I think we need to wait for Massman to post the example. I think it's easy to misunderstand the idea. Why bunny with something that isn't broken? The team ranking is absolutely fked. There is no activity/competition whatsoever. Quote
TerraRaptor Posted October 2, 2015 Posted October 2, 2015 Don't see any sense in this - imho balance is here already. We have teamcups already and they are not that popular. Quote
xxbassplayerxx Posted October 2, 2015 Posted October 2, 2015 (edited) The team ranking is absolutely fked. There is no activity/competition whatsoever. Not sure that's totally true... we've been pushing hard for 5th place for the past few months... We keep getting closer and then OCF puts up big scores and runs away lol. Edited October 2, 2015 by xxbassplayerxx Quote
Splave Posted October 2, 2015 Posted October 2, 2015 cool idea, can it be the same user? I hope or small teams have no chance 1 Quote
Johan45 Posted October 2, 2015 Posted October 2, 2015 I gues I misunderstood. I thought it would be top 20 per bench/HW so the top 20 scores on my team from members who ran 6700k and the average of those 20 scores. Then top 20 for 4790k etc.. Quote
Mr.Scott Posted October 2, 2015 Posted October 2, 2015 The team ranking is absolutely fked. There is no activity/competition whatsoever. In the top 3 places maybe, but from 4th on down there are changes every week. Quote
Rasparthe Posted October 2, 2015 Posted October 2, 2015 The team ranking is absolutely fked. There is no activity/competition whatsoever. What? When did this happen? I'm sure there are teams that don't have any activity or competition but that isn't true for every team. I'm fairly certain CP is very active within the team points, and OCN definitely runs competitions directly designed to boost Team Points. http://www.overclock.net/t/1556193/2015-hwbot-team-points-challenge Hardware points are very lean to come by, but Team Points at least can make up for it when benching less popular/cheaper hardware. Those points are great entry level ways for overclockers to get involved. By limiting the amount you can contribute you may run into the same type of wall that new overclockers run into now with the hardware points. They bench every last inch of their new, shiny rig, and then are unable to gain any further points. Adding more points will require a large increase in investment (2nd GPU, etc). Team points are one way they can use any old equipment they scrounge up on the cheap to contribute and feel like they are adding something to their scores. For some, Team Points are all they care about, since they are unwilling or unable to make the massive investments required to move into top spots in the leagues. I also would like to see some examples since I may be misunderstanding how it works, but it looks like a large focus (again) on newest/greatest hardware. Quote
Mr.Scott Posted October 2, 2015 Posted October 2, 2015 I also would like to see some examples since I may be misunderstanding how it works, but it looks like a large focus (again) on newest/greatest hardware. Exactly my thoughts. :celebration: Quote
der8auer Posted October 2, 2015 Author Posted October 2, 2015 What? When did this happen? I'm sure there are teams that don't have any activity or competition but that isn't true for every team. I'm fairly certain CP is very active within the team points, and OCN definitely runs competitions directly designed to boost Team Points. http://www.overclock.net/t/1556193/2015-hwbot-team-points-challenge Hardware points are very lean to come by, but Team Points at least can make up for it when benching less popular/cheaper hardware. Those points are great entry level ways for overclockers to get involved. By limiting the amount you can contribute you may run into the same type of wall that new overclockers run into now with the hardware points. They bench every last inch of their new, shiny rig, and then are unable to gain any further points. Adding more points will require a large increase in investment (2nd GPU, etc). Team points are one way they can use any old equipment they scrounge up on the cheap to contribute and feel like they are adding something to their scores. For some, Team Points are all they care about, since they are unwilling or unable to make the massive investments required to move into top spots in the leagues. I also would like to see some examples since I may be misunderstanding how it works, but it looks like a large focus (again) on newest/greatest hardware. I really love that there are still teams going for CP. 6-7 years ago that's all people were aiming for. But how many "teams" do really care about their ranking nowadays? 5-10 out of 100? I think that's mainly because the team-ranking is dominated by the fact that you need a large quantity of results and not quality. I honestly respect what you guy are doing and how much work you put into this. I would just love to see more competition and activity in there. But yeah - let's wait for Massman. Quote
Mr.Scott Posted October 2, 2015 Posted October 2, 2015 But how many "teams" do really care about their ranking nowadays? 5-10 out of 100?I think that's mainly because the team-ranking is dominated by the fact that you need a large quantity of results and not quality. I honestly respect what you guy are doing and how much work you put into this. I would just love to see more competition and activity in there. But yeah - let's wait for Massman. This is pretty funny considering that all of last month's discussions were aimed at promoting the TEAM concept because it was lost. Now .....of course, comes the backhand. Honest to god, if all you want to promote is current high end hardware on ln2 then just tell us. Just stop the dickin around. Quote
der8auer Posted October 2, 2015 Author Posted October 2, 2015 Which discussion? lol no need to freak out. I don't want to promote anything. It's an idea and I wanted to hear opinions about it... Quote
Mr.Scott Posted October 2, 2015 Posted October 2, 2015 Sorry. I'll back off until I see the example. I don't have a good feeling about it though. FWIW, you were just the staff member that delivered the message. I wasn't singling you out. It's not a personal thing. Quote
der8auer Posted October 2, 2015 Author Posted October 2, 2015 Okay all cool. Will also wait for the details now. Quote
JunkDogg Posted October 3, 2015 Posted October 3, 2015 The team ranking is absolutely fked. There is no activity/competition whatsoever. Is it the ranking that's fked? Or just some teams participation and the way they go engaging their team members. You don't have to change team rankings, if someone doesn't like thier team and it's participation go find other members that are the same and create a team or join a team that is more focused on team events. I honestly do not believe a team with 20 people who bench the latest and greatest all the time are better than a team that can bench everything(new and old) consistently. Anyway, I'll wait until and example is shown. I have a gut feeling this is going to really mess up the team rankings, which in turn will have a worse effect than what you are trying to do here. *This is not directed at you Rom, to HWBOT in general mate* Quote
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