The line between ambient water and chilled/cold

[suzuki]

@KaRtA - when that one was submitted it wasn't even decided to be an aprentice league nor the "chilled" option.

There we're many users with pics of ice buckets and still in enthusiast so this one was my pride as i won a 4820k with that sub .

Anyway ,i disabled it will keep just the memory of it .

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[KaRtA]

@KaRtA - when that one was submitted it wasn't even decided to be an aprentice league nor the "chilled" option.

There we're many users with pics of ice buckets and still in enthusiast so this one was my pride as i won a 4820k with that sub .

Anyway ,i disabled it will keep just the memory of it .

 

There was so many running ice bucket at that time. You did nothing wrong with it. Was all pre apprentice league so no problem.

[speed.fastest]

I vote to remove enthusiast league, but keep rookie & novices. BTW i dont see the point for using Ice/some weird exotic cooling. Just go to DICE/LN2 is easier than managing ice, or just go with Phase Changer. I dont see the point Enthusiast League.

[knopflerbruce]

My 2 cents on this as of tonight: the point in having the enthusiast league is to keep the cost down for the OC'er. At least that's what iit seems from the explanations here: Overclocking, overclocking, and much more! Like overclocking.

 

Perhaps one wants to remove the skill barrier that comes when you need to start insulating as well, that seems a part of it based on the Enthusiast league description. In the end it doesn't seem to be about operating temperature itself, but the ambient temperature. This is the only line in the rules about this: "Enthusiast: ambient cooling, registered >1y".

 

"Ambient" simply means the temperature of the surroundings, so if you put your rig outside in Sibiria at winter time, ambient will be awesome - comparable to something between single stage and dry ice. That's just how it is. You can't have a set of rules where you can run your AC unit full force in the summertime in Australia, but someone living in Eastern Europe can't even open the wndow at night (skill level and cost = 0, AC units are expensive). With this in mind I'd be surprised if hooking your water block up to the water supply or putting some ice collected outsde on top of your radiator are things that are not meant for a league like this, either - whether or not it can be called "ambient" (answer: no). Both cooling methods are almost free and require very little skill to set up, so it makes no sense to compare good use of ones surroundings to phase change units and such.

[henkenator68NL]

some with a chiller, some without in summer and winter. In either case the coolant is not colder than what a good winter day can do (and that's ambient) ;-)

(and I'm not affecting your league rankings)

aquarium chiller and a Koolance.

Ñ

 

The fact that even while running a chiller, jpmboy has taken no condensation measures at all. This can only be done when his chilled water temps are above the dewpoint. Where the dewpoint is a mathematical function of ambient temperature and rellative humidity at a given time.

 

The dewpoint is NOT a fixed value, the ambient temp and the relative humidity changes even over a couple of hours. When running super chilled water below the dewpoint, I always calculate the dewpoint once every 2 hours or so.

 

Immediately if you get below the dewpoint, some serious actions have to be taken: prepping the motherboard, cpu socket and or gpu's identical to ln2 prepping: vasi, plasti spray, eraser electrical tape and last but not least any part from the cooling loop that is exposed to ambient temps will condensate like crazy: everything has to be packed In armaflex and completely sealed of or water will be pooring over your pressious hardware prior to it making its final sudden shutdown resulting in a pile of dead junk.

 

I run a Haileah 1500watt chiller, 1 noisy MF, I have put insulated copper pipping fixed from the wall where my bench desk resides. Al the way through my kitchen, through a wall into another room.. THe chiller is sitting there (silence I Cill you) placed the chiller about 25 meter from my desk, so about so a loop jength 50-60 meter back and forth. Needs 2 strongest Koolance PMP500 pumps to get a flow that sits in 300-400 liters per hour, pressure is 0,7-0,8 bar

 

Mine drops to 4 `C, so on average that is an immediate bonus from 14 to 24 `C on the water temp. On top of that when de system is stressed the water temps rises only by a fractions simply because the chiller is way fast in resupply of freshly chilled water.

CPU cores idle at 8`C. Depending on test and how hard it's pushed underload max around 85 sofar.

But GPU .... They loveeeee the cold imagine core at 11`C and vrms 17-19 `C . Max under load 35`c!! And they love that

 

Plenty performance.

 

 

--

Henkenator68NL

Edited April 2, 2017 by henkenator68NL
Added some temp info

[henkenator68NL]

I think this is an irrelevant discussion because enthusiast league as a whole is broken. Some of the reasons why it is broken:

- It is pay to win: Buy server hw or 4-way titans with 6950X and collect WR points.

- HW-points are broken: You can get your hw-points very high with locked skylakes and probably upcoming locked kabys etc. It is impossible to get 50-pointers on ambient cooling in "proper" categories.

Etc etc

 

- The whole cooling issue: What is - And finally, find a way to better differentiate globals and hw-points for enthusiast league. The difference between top enthusiast score and 20th place is like 3-5 points...

 

Rauf those are some solid pointers, can't find anything wrong with those suggestions.. So

+1

Dude

Takk se Mukke

[Antinomy]

You are an Apprentice.

You are deliberately chilling water.

Just to clarify - is my bathroom valve illegal?

 

P.S. if yes, tell me to what temperature should I heat the water before cooling the CPU.

 

Edited April 3, 2017 by Antinomy

[aussie-revhead]

Ñ

 

The fact that even while running a chiller, jpmboy has taken no condensation measures at all. This can only be done when his chilled water temps are above the dewpoint. Where the dewpoint is a mathematical function of ambient temperature and rellative humidity at a given time.

 

The dewpoint is NOT a fixed value, the ambient temp and the relative humidity changes even over a couple of hours. When running super chilled water below the dewpoint, I always calculate the dewpoint once every 2 hours or so.

 

Immediately if you get below the dewpoint, some serious actions have to be taken: prepping the motherboard, cpu socket and or gpu's identical to ln2 prepping: vasi, plasti spray, eraser electrical tape and last but not least any part from the cooling loop that is exposed to ambient temps will condensate like crazy: everything has to be packed In armaflex and completely sealed of or water will be pooring over your pressious hardware prior to it making its final sudden shutdown resulting in a pile of dead junk.

 

I run a Haileah 1500watt chiller, 1 noisy MF, I have put insulated copper pipping fixed from the wall where my bench desk resides. Al the way through my kitchen, through a wall into another room.. THe chiller is sitting there (silence I Cill you) placed the chiller about 25 meter from my desk, so about so a loop jength 50-60 meter back and forth. Needs 2 strongest Koolance PMP500 pumps to get a flow that sits in 300-400 liters per hour, pressure is 0,7-0,8 bar

 

Mine drops to 4 `C, so on average that is an immediate bonus from 14 to 24 `C on the water temp. On top of that when de system is stressed the water temps rises only by a fractions simply because the chiller is way fast in resupply of freshly chilled water.

CPU cores idle at 8`C. Depending on test and how hard it's pushed underload max around 85 sofar.

But GPU .... They loveeeee the cold imagine core at 11`C and vrms 17-19 `C . Max under load 35`c!! And they love that

 

Plenty performance.

 

 

--

Henkenator68NL

 

Hey mate, I was wondering this myself, its usually pretty warm down here and I was looking at cooling my coolant not to "chill" or run sub zero, but to keep the loaded temp of my cpu down as far as possible without insulating. If I really wanted cold I would buy a single stage, I like the easy and flexibility (to change hardware often) that I get with water cooling.

 

I have a spate UT60 120mm rad, what if I added this to the loop and dropped it in icy water as mentioned a few pages back? Will the little rad help?

 

I was looking at Haileah chillers but I hate noise and I cant run it outside, so Im glad you told me. I used to have a little Vapochill and it was so quiet I didnt even think it was working, can this be adapted to a heat exchanger? Or too small to make a difference (cooling a 5960x)?

 

:ws:

Edited April 3, 2017 by aussie-revhead

[newlife]

On dew point I love were I live as we often get it below zero which is great for sub zero cooling

[speed.fastest]

So Enthusiast League is dew point League? Here dew point like 22-25 Celcius. I think it doesnt matter, Enthusiast will just go colder, merge it with Apprentice League.

[Elkim]

Enough wil dew point lol When I run my external loop in winter, I get water on loop almost instantly, all I need to do is open my terrace door for a minute and its nice and dry. Strong fans will fix the condenz.

[Mr.Scott]

Just to clarify - is my bathroom valve illegal?

 

P.S. if yes, tell me to what temperature should I heat the water before cooling the CPU.

 

You are fine because you're not intentionally chilling it.

It's not about temp, it's about method.

[Antinomy]

You are fine because you're not intentionally chilling it. It's not about temp, it's about method.

I do understand. But I've seen it's not the only opinion over here. With suggestions around 10-12 degrees been as a baseline.

 

In America you chill water. In Soviet Russia the water chills you.

[aussie-revhead]

Are you running tap water through your loop? Where does it go after it leaves the loop? What is your ambient temp with 4c water temp?

 

[Antinomy]

1. Yep

2. To the sink

3. Indoors or outdoors?

[Elkim]

You are fine because you're not intentionally chilling it.

It's not about temp, it's about method.

 

Check the submitting page, its chilled/cold, so yes, he doesnt chilling it, his water is just cold = Apprentice.

[Mr.Scott]

Check the submitting page, its chilled/cold, so yes, he doesnt chilling it, his water is just cold = Apprentice.

That I do not agree with. He didn't do anything artificially to make it that temp, and he's benching indoors in a 'habitable' temp.

Edited April 4, 2017 by Mr.Scott

[Elkim]

That I do not agree with. He didn't do anything artificially to make it that temp, and he's benching indoors in a 'habitable' temp.

 

So what is cold water? Or is it supposed to mean like chilled and cold are same thing? Artificiall or not, its not competeable when it comes to competitions or rankings...

 

Guys who play chillers in enthusiast will switch to tap water and problem solved? I dont think so

[Mr.Scott]

That's exactly why this is a difficult subject and leagues should be merged.

[Fasttrack]

-20c in Siberia ( with open windows ) is ambient.

+40 in Africa is ambient.

 

Should we ask people living in Arctic regions to raise the temperature to +20 and the people living in extremely hot climates, to install an air-conditioning unit, right above the PC, to reduce temperature to +20 ?

 

Kind of looking at the glass and wondering if it is half full or half empty.

 

Too much anxiety for a non-solvable ( technically speaking ) issue.

 

Even after 2000 posts in this thread, we will be at the same point - 0.

[knopflerbruce]

I can't see why tap water is not OK. Everyone has it (at least in the overclocking scene), and it's even easier to use than regular water cooling setups, which are allowed.

 

Mother nature isn't a "chiller".

[Elkim]

Because for cold water there is a category while submitting. Is tap water cold? Yes its is. Its just cold water. Whole reason to that is competeability of the whole thing. And main problem is that "ambient" is just wrong word for our problem, we should stop calling it that and replace it with something else.

 

Ambient in our case is everything but inconstant and its very foldable.

 

The whole point of the league is to get the people fair chances, I see ambient as something that I live in, I sleep in, I bunny in, I eat it, just a surroundings that is comfortable to man. So yeas if somebody lives in hell, he get AC so he can live better and cool down surrounding area to 20°C. Staying 24/7/365 under 18°C isnt normal and thats not "our ambient".

 

Ambient watercooling in our case is temp of waterloop which you can sustain by surrounding air temp in which you live in.

 

I don't know folks, but it makes perfect sense to me how enthusiast league is set and how it is ment but there is just much much much headroom bend it.

 

That is just way I see it. Remove ambient, it doesnt make sense in our case. Lets just do watercooling and dont give a bunny if its cooled by Nachtfalke'ss chiller to -50°C or mountain spring 4°C water or whatever lol

[Fasttrack]

Friends, I trust Scotty.

Why ?

For a zillion reasons.

 

We ( almost all of us ), say the same thing with small deviations.

 

The enthusiast league must go down.

End. Stopped.

The word " ambient " is, by nature, so vague, that the rules imposed in the enthusiast league, are ( and can be ), so bended, that someone either laughs or raises an eyebrow ( to say the least ).

 

If what Scotty has been saying for years ( one league for Pros and one for the rest ), is not achievable, at least lets merge everything that has to do with water -

AIO, water, custom water, chilled/cold and whatever else exists.

 

Either if a chiller takes water to -30 or the Siberian nature, we will not have to wonder each time, who cheats and who does not.

 

Just my 0.02c

[websmile]

I entered hwbot when something like an enthusiast league didn´t exist. Everyone was responsible for his results, they did depend on cooling of course, and up to a certain amount on skills. Now at enthusiast league they mainly depend on how you bend the rules... this problem is not solvable, and for everyone we catch at chilling ten new guys start to do the same. It is tiresome to fight windmills, and this is main reason why I don´t contribute to this thread, it is something you cannot solve at an online league. Imho even the NSA would fail at making this work^^

[Fasttrack]

I entered hwbot when something like an enthusiast league didn´t exist. Everyone was responsible for his results, they did depend on cooling of course, and up to a certain amount on skills. Now at enthusiast league they mainly depend on how you bend the rules... this problem is not solvable, and for everyone we catch at chilling ten new guys start to do the same. It is tiresome to fight windmills, and this is main reason why I don´t contribute to this thread, it is something you cannot solve at an online league. Imho even the NSA would fail at making this work^^

 

Thank you Michael for this down to earth approach.

An extremely valuable opinion, to which ALL must give extra weight.

 

Based on this approach, only one thing remains to be done.

Reshuffle the deck.

We can't do that.

The owners/administrators of this site, must sit down and think how to reconstruct the leagues, in order to avoid any further " misunderstandings ".