HWBOT Team Cup 2017 Discussion

[Guest]

I actually hoped to win the thermal paste ...... ran out with no shops nearby to replenish

 

Good concept Paco. Punished if not posting scores up.

[Noxinite]

Do like that Broadwell for that iGpu.

Wanted a HD4850 myself for one of the benchmarks to do.

 

Planning of the x4 stages was clever for this comp as no x1 individual may have

all the varied parts to do x6 benchmarks in each.

____

 

Discussions with a mate here ..... the enthusiast gets over run with the LN2 scores.

We know this happens & grin & bear it .... he made an interesting point.

 

What if the individual x3 submitted scores for each benchmark were from x1 member of each division.

 

Paused for a moment " thought it's a nightmare & it cannot work "

 

x1 Enthusiast

x1 Apprentice

x1 Elite/ extreme

 

Each does his thing. What ever hardware he has. ie. 8800gt 8800gts512 8800gtx 3Dmarks

I know it's an insane mix up, least experienced perhaps guy on a better part, then

a expert experienced guy on a lesser scoring part.

_________

 

Haha crazy good concept. Evens the playing field OR not

 

No. Maybe if they were just cooling categories, but not by league. I'll happily run ambient instead of phase, dice or LN2. But restricting by league is silly as extreme can obviously still run ambient.

[yosarianilives]

Lets say team A missed the first 2 weeks, you never know what other team(s) may miss any of the future weeks. So it would be a huge mistake to step out after the first missed 2 weeks. A team leading the whole comp can miss the final 2 weeks then BOOM a change of the guard takes place

;)Thats where the undisclosed prize(s) comes into play (if any). No one knows if its $1000 worth of hw or $10 tube of thermal paste. Just like lotto gotta be init to win it... Till the end

But again, its just an idea...

 

I was more saying that if you've missed 6 weeks and you're already 8 weeks in then you'll have a very hard time competing with a team that's 8 for 8. One way around this would be to have each stage worth more points the later in the comp it is. So for example the 2 stages from the 1st 2 weeks may be worth 50 points each, but then the 2 stages from weeks 7 and 8 would be worth 100 points each. So that it hurts to miss stages early but there's still a chance for a comeback if your team was DOA initially. Kinda like how the final jeopardy can reverse the placing as long as you at least stay remotely close. This would still discourage sandbags as long as the final 2 stages were enough points to reverse the placing while not being enough so as to not require early subs assuming we had a case like this time where OCN held a pretty significant lead until the last few days. But I do really like your idea Mr. Paco as it would add an interesting twist to the competition and encourage "sportsmanlike conduct".

[Guest]

Still not there yet on this idea. The extreme guy will still " mostly I'm guessing " use extreme cooling to maximise points from clocks.

Apprentice fits in the middle of this somewhere, but it's still advanced cooling of some sorts.

Then the enthusiast has his match up to the other enthusiasts on other teams, this may be a interesting dual. Different gpu's an example.

But it's still a correct league vs league match. The variable is the hardware each member could own.

 

Edit. As the Paco team A vs team B example.

 

x3 subs. Say 3D05 8800 series

Enthusiast.

A. Has gtx does 20K score B. Has gts512 does 21K score ...... all stock

 

Apprentice.

A. Has gts512 does 23K with better cooling. B. Has Ultra but scores only 19K

 

Extreme.

A. Has Ultra does air cooling 20K. B Has gtx does LN2 smack out the big 25K

___________

 

It's a mix of parts / skills / effort. But in the end it makes for some very tough fought benchmarking.

Edited October 2, 2017 by Guest

[mr.paco]

I was more saying that if you've missed 6 weeks and you're already 8 weeks in then you'll have a very hard time competing with a team that's 8 for 8. One way around this would be to have each stage worth more points the later in the comp it is. So for example the 2 stages from the 1st 2 weeks may be worth 50 points each, but then the 2 stages from weeks 7 and 8 would be worth 100 points each. So that it hurts to miss stages early but there's still a chance for a comeback if your team was DOA initially. Kinda like how the final jeopardy can reverse the placing as long as you at least stay remotely close. This would still discourage sandbags as long as the final 2 stages were enough points to reverse the placing while not being enough so as to not require early subs assuming we had a case like this time where OCN held a pretty significant lead until the last few days. But I do really like your idea Mr. Paco as it would add an interesting twist to the competition and encourage "sportsmanlike conduct".

Ah yes, I see what you mean. Liking the point spread idea.

As said nothing will please everyone. But with a twist n mix-up every so often should help some how.

[Bones]

While I wholeheartedly agree that there are issues with sandbagging, you also have to be careful to not penalize people who are scrounging for points at the last minute. My most enjoyable benching session of the comp was probably the RX580 score that I posted about 5hrs before the end of the comp. That wasn't sandbagging, that was scrounging for a few points on a 580 that I expected to have coldslow...until it didn't. I got that score ~20min before I posted it, and if people want to be crazy enough to wait until the last minute to bench, so be it. As yos said, we were both benching up until the very end of the comp(though yos cut it closer than I did).

 

I don't think stages that are each a week long will be very effective, especially if the hardware isn't announced beforehand. A lot of people on /r/overclocking don't have a ton of hardware(myself included), and it took us a while to track down some of the more esoteric stuff for this comp. There are also a lot of weeks where people simply might not be able to find the time to bench.

 

I do however like the idea of a comp background/CPU-Z version that changes every week or two. That would prevent the majority of sandbagging, and should be much easier to implement from a software perspective. While some of the other ideas in this thread are interesting, I just don't see them happening due to the massive software changes they would require. If a team wants to adopt the strategy of benching everything during the last week, and they manage to win, I'll be damn impressed, as I expect most others would be.

 

You do make a good point in that many just don't have a large assortment of hardware BUT do remember also this is for the teams, not the individual and it should never be up to a single person to come up with it all on their own.

 

Again, you won't find that "Perfect" solution we'd all like to have and no matter what's brought to the table someone will have a problem with it for whatever reasons since no one's situation is like any other.

 

However it's like that in any other sport you can name too, this is why I'm saying we do need to make the effort or it's not gonna happen. Name any sport you want and I can promise you things won't be equal for all as individuals related to the same concerns being voiced here, it's a "Here it is, these are the rules.... Take it or leave it" kind of deal. Those guys know going in what's up and have to adjust.

 

However.....

Our situation is different in that we're already here, things have been going on with teams and such already established and the situation would change, not that other sports haven't changed as time has passed because they have.

 

Change is inevitable and even neccesary for it to continue or you could one day call it all the Dodo bot.

 

This has been kicked around for so long yet nothing ever seems to materialize so on it goes....

I don't have any real say over what's done or how it will be, all I can do is to suggest what could be like the rest of you. However since the discussion is happening in the first place that is a step in the right direction. :banana:

 

BTW do realize unlike it is in other "Sports" we actually get to voice our opinions about HOW things are done, if it were most anything else we'd be told we can either squeal and/or deal or just get the hell out.

If the guys here at the bot were to do that one day it woudn't suprise me so much and yes, it could happen that way too but I don't see the guys here wanting it to be like that all.

[Guest]

Discussion at least for the most part is healthy. How can we move forward?

 

See the enthusiast league is bulging with near on 90 thousand. That's a lot of computers to race.

Untapped resources there in abundance.

_____

 

We can find a way ... some good ideas here for a future comp ... perhaps a small tweak can gain uniformity

[yosarianilives]

Yeah, would definitely be nice to have more incentive for those on "weaker" cooling to join in comps. When I was on ambient I would participate in comps, especially team comps, but I had no hope of competing with LN2. So it would definitely help to bring more engagement from those on ambient cooling if they could still remain competitive in ln2 dominated comps.

[mickulty]

Heres a possible twist for future comp.

An example; 24 sub-stages in 12 weeks (3months).

Announce that at the end of every week 2 undisclosed stage(s) will end .

Prizes: Undisclosed till the end

 

That would be completely insane but very fun!

[Guest]

Yeah, would definitely be nice to have more incentive for those on "weaker" cooling to join in comps. When I was on ambient I would participate in comps, especially team comps, but I had no hope of competing with LN2. So it would definitely help to bring more engagement from those on ambient cooling if they could still remain competitive in ln2 dominated comps.

 

I get there is division somewhat between leagues, even a rivalry. But my friend is onto something. Call him the mad scientist affectionately hehe

 

You have other leagues also. Overclocking, overclocking, and much more! Like overclocking.

Novice & rookie

 

There's many a comp comes around for these guys too... but lets face it. We are still a whole bunch of guys interested in computers.

We are not so different. Same like on similar hardware too sometimes.

 

So a comp to include them too. x5 individual leagues submit x5 scores in a benchmark. Imagine that.

Keen mind racing for gold encouraged by the other members.

Ha don't be fooled .... seen some of these scores put up by these newcomers. Some stand outs & they can kick serious butt like many in here.

 

That's the comp of the future. Not knowing who has what hardware......

But a united front to put forward the best efforts.

[mr.paco]

That would be completely insane but very fun!

 

It could be altered in different ways. Say instead of first 2 weeks say wait 30days for first stage to end and then every 2 wks after that. Or something like that.

[yosarianilives]

It could be altered in different ways. Say instead of first 2 weeks say wait 30days for first stage to end and then every 2 wks after that. Or something like that.

 

That'd be good, so then you wouldn't have the initial rush and the potential "luck of the draw" of who managed to pick the right stage. Because I know that just benching stock it can be hard to get a score in every stage within 2 weeks, especially for ones for the older hw when combined with "younger" teams such as r/overclocking where we had to try to find good 939 and 478 boards because we didn't already have them as well as learning to OC them. I know I had to learn 1155 OC at about 3 am cst before the comp ended at 7 am!

[Leeghoofd]

first thing we need to adress is the availability of the hardware list, preferably at least 2-3 weeks before compo starts. So competitors can search fleabay and co to get the required hardware.

 

How did you guys like it this year? less exotic requirements fopr motherboards, CPUs and co. Even some stages could be perfectly done on just water/chilled cooling setups

[mr.paco]

first thing we need to adress is the availability of the hardware list, preferably at least 2-3 weeks before compo starts. So competitors can search fleabay and co to get the required hardware.

 

How did you guys like it this year? less exotic requirements fopr motherboards, CPUs and co. Even some stages could be perfectly done on just water/chilled cooling setups

 

Definitely on the first part.

 

Personally I liked this year cause it forced me to up my game delving into DDR4 supported platforms.

[yosarianilives]

first thing we need to adress is the availability of the hardware list, preferably at least 2-3 weeks before compo starts. So competitors can search fleabay and co to get the required hardware.

 

How did you guys like it this year? less exotic requirements fopr motherboards, CPUs and co. Even some stages could be perfectly done on just water/chilled cooling setups

 

It would definitely help if we had time to get all of the hw needed before the comp, especially if we tried to have certain stages end early. Most of the "exotic" cpus were not required but certainly helped. Ie. my 5775c was spitting out some nice scores for it's clockspeed, but if you got enough ghz on a 4690k you could make up for lack of that rare cpu. Similarly with the 6900k that no one wanted to buy for gpupi 100m, our 6900k on water was keeping up with 5820k on ln2 with significantly more clockspeed. Polaris ended up being a tough stage for many people if they didn't already have cards, as most people aren't willing to spend the money that polaris is now with mining. And of course there was the challenge of finding working 939 and 468 boards that were good for OC. But overall I felt like there was a nice spread of hw and at least for my team we got to learn a lot of platforms that we wouldn't've otherwise touched. I know I had fun on my 5960x that came in the last week, and I never thought previously that I would ever buy x99 especially after ryzen came out.

[yosarianilives]

Personally I liked this year cause it forced me to up my game delving into DDR4 supported platforms.

 

I noticed that you had only a few subs on your 1700x, did you buy it a few days before comp end to bench?

[GRIFF]

@Leeghoofd

Dear Alby,

I admit that I went too far with definitions and comments, most of them have been written when I was enraged. I apologize for the this.

I'm sorry for the things I've said, that are offensive and not pleasant to hear for people and team that has always respected our team and our members, and has always helped us.

I would have blamed everyone who whould have been in your place, so I want to say sorry again and say that is not personal.

The fact that others have shared my vision confirms the bad image that, maybe it's not perceived from the inside.

Again, the question is not personal with you and your team.

I want to apologize to everyone who has taken it as personal injury and to you, Alby.

 

PS:To avoid similar discussion, I propose to open a thread for each benchmark, in order to perfect its rules, and to collect feedback and suggestions about it from the ones who want to improve our hobby.

Edited October 2, 2017 by GRIFF

[mr.paco]

I noticed that you had only a few subs on your 1700x, did you buy it a few days before comp end to bench?

 

Yes.

[yosarianilives]

Yes.

 

If you ever want some tips for OC on it one 1700x to another I'd love to help you out. Especially in gpupi 1B, that's my bench for ryzen. I managed to get mine to 4.19 ghz, although at a slightly crazy 1.6v, on some really good watercooling.

[mr.paco]

If you ever want some tips for OC on it one 1700x to another I'd love to help you out. Especially in gpupi 1B, that's my bench for ryzen. I managed to get mine to 4.19 ghz, although at a slightly crazy 1.6v, on some really good watercooling.

 

Definitely appreciated Thank you :ws:

[TAGG]

I had HW for every misc Stage, good HW even, then i killed 2 Rampage 4 Extreme(one was half dead allready to be fair...), a GTX 480 and a 5GHz air 3930K in one session...

Because of this i kinda lost the motivation to compete in this competiton, surely will be back for the next one though

 

On the sandbagging argument: I personally submit all my scores once I bench them, because I'd probbably forget to submit the scores... plus it takes my internet about 4-5 minutes to upload a 2MB Image However sandbagging never made me less motivated to compete, usually I will try to get the best out of my HW without any competition...

[Dead Things]

When I first heard of the "each stage has one sub per league" idea, I immediately thought to myself, well that doesn't work for the smaller teams who may not have people in certain leagues. Hardware Canucks, for example, has no extreme benchers, and some of the big teams have no enthusiast/novice/rookie benchers. But I though on it some more, and I think this idea aligns perfectly with the whole purpose of the Team Cup. If your team is lacking in extreme benchers, then the Team Cup will encourage you to buy a pot and source some LN2 - mission accomplished. If your team is lacking in enthusiast benchers, then the Team Cup will encourage you to recruit members who are new to OC - mission accomplished. Even though it would technically hurt my own team, the more I think about this idea, the more I like it.

[mickulty]

When I first heard of the "each stage has one sub per league" idea, I immediately thought to myself, well that doesn't work for the smaller teams who may not have people in certain leagues. Hardware Canucks, for example, has no extreme benchers, and some of the big teams have no enthusiast/novice/rookie benchers. But I though on it some more, and I think this idea aligns perfectly with the whole purpose of the Team Cup. If your team is lacking in extreme benchers, then the Team Cup will encourage you to buy a pot and source some LN2 - mission accomplished. If your team is lacking in enthusiast benchers, then the Team Cup will encourage you to recruit members who are new to OC - mission accomplished. Even though it would technically hurt my own team, the more I think about this idea, the more I like it.

 

I'd be interested to hear some opinions on this? I totally agree in my experience but being associated with reddit kinda helps with recruiting...

[Guest]

first thing we need to adress is the availability of the hardware list, preferably at least 2-3 weeks before compo starts. So competitors can search fleabay and co to get the required hardware.

 

How did you guys like it this year? less exotic requirements fopr motherboards, CPUs and co. Even some stages could be perfectly done on just water/chilled cooling setups

 

There was good variation of parts needed to compete. I had to scramble early buying parts from USA & UK .... so expensive to ship as well.

Australia is a tiny market, to find good hardware quickly is difficult.

 

Liked the comp just fine. Fun to race the Haswell & Kabylake machines

Although towards end of comp ...... had little to do as other team members had better subbed scores than I could do

 

@Leeghoofd

Dear Alby,

I admit that I went too far with definitions and comments, most of them have been written when I was enraged. I apologize for the this.

I'm sorry for the things I've said, that are offensive and not pleasant to hear for people and team that has always respected our team and our members, and has always helped us.

I would have blamed everyone who whould have been in your place, so I want to say sorry again and say that is not personal.

The fact that others have shared my vision confirms the bad image that, maybe it's not perceived from the inside.

Again, the question is not personal with you and your team.

I want to apologize to everyone who has taken it as personal injury and to you, Alby.

 

PS:To avoid similar discussion, I propose to open a thread for each benchmark, in order to perfect its rules, and to collect feedback and suggestions about it from the ones who want to improve our hobby.

 

Takes a real man to admit when he was wrong. Respect to you brother

Plus I do know angry writing myself & can/ does go to far sometimes

 

On the sandbagging argument: I personally submit all my scores once I bench them, because I'd probbably forget to submit the scores... plus it takes my internet about 4-5 minutes to upload a 2MB Image However sandbagging never made me less motivated to compete, usually I will try to get the best out of my HW without any competition...

 

^ This ^ We all knew sadbags would rain in. But we still benched the crap out of the parts we had on hand.

An enjoyable comp .... ha till you try submit scores to an overloaded server. That was a painfull part for many members here

[Dead Things]

Are the Team Cup results final and official yet, or still waiting?