unityofsaints Posted January 14, 2019 Share Posted January 14, 2019 (edited) Can we deduce from the hwbot.org going down that the changes are going live as outlined in this thread? Edited January 14, 2019 by unityofsaints Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crew Leeghoofd Posted January 15, 2019 Crew Share Posted January 15, 2019 Any chance when rev8 goes live, so I can start making challengers accordingly.. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richba5tard Posted January 15, 2019 Author Share Posted January 15, 2019 On 1/14/2019 at 3:04 AM, unityofsaints said: Can we deduce from the hwbot.org going down that the changes are going live as outlined in this thread? No, it was an unfortunate aws ec2 crash. : / Reboot did not solve the issue, hence the longer downtime. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richba5tard Posted January 15, 2019 Author Share Posted January 15, 2019 Any major remarks regarding rev8 now that we changed the algorithm to "sum top 30 globals + top 30 hardware submissions" instead of top 30 total points? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeropluszero Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 did you make some changes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richba5tard Posted January 15, 2019 Author Share Posted January 15, 2019 No, i made the change before the weekend Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rauf Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 36 minutes ago, richba5tard said: Any major remarks regarding rev8 now that we changed the algorithm to "sum top 30 globals + top 30 hardware submissions" instead of top 30 total points? Too much quantity, too little quality. Who has time to do 30 good globals and 30 good hw subs per year? And who can do 10 comps in a year? Max 10 globals and 10 hw per year, and max 3 comps. For career 30 hw is fine, but as globals are changing almost every year i think 30 subs for globals is too much even for career. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richba5tard Posted January 15, 2019 Author Share Posted January 15, 2019 Maybe I should settle the exact amount of results with a poll, so I can blame the community if someone inevitably complains. 1 4 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GeorgeStorm Posted January 15, 2019 Members Share Posted January 15, 2019 21 minutes ago, richba5tard said: Maybe I should settle the exact amount of results with a poll, so I can blame the community if someone inevitably complains. Now you're getting it 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richba5tard Posted January 15, 2019 Author Share Posted January 15, 2019 2 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeropluszero Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 1 hour ago, richba5tard said: No, i made the change before the weekend The implication of my post is that it all looks the same to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Critical Power Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 Global points - Elite vs Rest of the world. Global points Elite = 30 Records Global points Rest of the world = 10/15 Recordsleagues: sponsored and not sponsored Everyone happy ? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozzie Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 3 hours ago, Rauf said: Too much quantity, too little quality. Who has time to do 30 good globals and 30 good hw subs per year? And who can do 10 comps in a year? Max 10 globals and 10 hw per year, and max 3 comps. For career 30 hw is fine, but as globals are changing almost every year i think 30 subs for globals is too much even for career. this is just common sense 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crew Leeghoofd Posted January 16, 2019 Crew Share Posted January 16, 2019 (edited) Nope it isn't, you don't need to do 30 globals, it means you will accredited extra if you do more than eg10... 10 with new hardware, especially the sponsored guys might be too low, it's all about balance... Edited January 16, 2019 by Leeghoofd 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cnzdrn Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 My opinion is at least 20 globals + 20 hw for season. Better if 30 + 30. Make 4-5 results for month isn't impossible! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rauf Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 Looking at the votes...for instance 50 hw submission in seasonal ranking... It seems hwbot always wants to promote spamming results. I thought overclocking was about PUSHING HW TO THE MAXIMUM. With rev 8 it will turn even more into rewarding users to run large amounts of hw at stock or just slightly overclocked. How do we promote actual overclocking by this? Tell a new user to spend one week optimizing OS, drivers, cooling etc and he gains 10 points. Another users buys 10 new pieces of hw and runs them at stock through all benchmarks - he gains a thousand points...good balance? I really want to like and support hwbot, but with every new revision hwbot is killing itself more and more. @richba5tard BTW, looking at the rankings I see several top results are missing since the rev 7 migration. Will you make sure this does not happen again? For example almost all of my single 1080 ti submissions are missing: FS, FSX, catzillas, 3Dmark11. I also see that results from Kingpin are missing so it is not isolated to me... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richba5tard Posted January 17, 2019 Author Share Posted January 17, 2019 1 hour ago, Rauf said: Looking at the votes...for instance 50 hw submission in seasonal ranking... It seems hwbot always wants to promote spamming results. I thought overclocking was about PUSHING HW TO THE MAXIMUM. With rev 8 it will turn even more into rewarding users to run large amounts of hw at stock or just slightly overclocked. How do we promote actual overclocking by this? Tell a new user to spend one week optimizing OS, drivers, cooling etc and he gains 10 points. Another users buys 10 new pieces of hw and runs them at stock through all benchmarks - he gains a thousand points...good balance? I really want to like and support hwbot, but with every new revision hwbot is killing itself more and more. @richba5tard BTW, looking at the rankings I see several top results are missing since the rev 7 migration. Will you make sure this does not happen again? For example almost all of my single 1080 ti submissions are missing: FS, FSX, catzillas, 3Dmark11. I also see that results from Kingpin are missing so it is not isolated to me... It's not ok if the crew decides the limit and it's not ok if the community decides the limit. Can you give a concrete example where you can buy 10 new pieces of hardware and them a stock speed to gain thousands of points? No vague complaints please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 He's talking the odd processors or laptops with no bios OC features that run stock & make like 30 points in benches. It was mentioned before BUT that member still makes the effort to setup & run bench. ie valid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rauf Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 6 minutes ago, richba5tard said: It's not ok if the crew decides the limit and it's not ok if the community decides the limit. Can you give a concrete example where you can buy 10 new pieces of hardware and them a stock speed to gain thousands of points? No vague complaints please. If the limit is stupid it does not matter who decides it. Here is one example of a stock cooled VGA and a very easy OC of an air cooled CPU: https://uat.hwbot.org/submission/3557369_gorod_3dmark___fire_strike_geforce_gtx_1070_20223_marks It gets 33 hw points. You can run the 1070 through all modern or semi-modern 3D and get around 30 points easy with all air/water and very small OC. For reference you can just check h20vsln2's profile to see what kind of good hw points you can get through an all air/water setup. 50x30 points = 1500 points total. And I did not say thousands, I said A thousand points. And this is just hw points. If you want to see good globals which are "easy" to get you just check the same user profile. The newest intel CPU and latest Titan will always get incredible globals even on stock cooling, but the fewer global subs that count, the less impact this has. For me the fewer results that give points the more you have to focus on quality of your subs and makes it less of a money game. Even if it always will be a money game, you can limit it as best you can. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rauf Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 11 minutes ago, avalanche said: He's talking the odd processors or laptops with no bios OC features that run stock & make like 30 points in benches. It was mentioned before BUT that member still makes the effort to setup & run bench. ie valid There is this also. And ofc it is valid, but is this what hwbot is about? Spamming meaningless results? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richba5tard Posted January 17, 2019 Author Share Posted January 17, 2019 4 minutes ago, Rauf said: If the limit is stupid it does not matter who decides it. Here is one example of a stock cooled VGA and a very easy OC of an air cooled CPU: https://uat.hwbot.org/submission/3557369_gorod_3dmark___fire_strike_geforce_gtx_1070_20223_marks It gets 33 hw points. You can run the 1070 through all modern or semi-modern 3D and get around 30 points easy with all air/water and very small OC That's a bad example. All submissions with a 1070 which scored about the same use extreme cooling. This is not an example of unfair points, but of either a very good chip or a user which did not change the "stock cooling" default to the cooling he used. LN2: https://uat.hwbot.org/submission/3578161_buildzoid_3dmark___fire_strike_geforce_gtx_1070_20612_marks/ Chilled water: https://uat.hwbot.org/submission/3929098_totalnet_3dmark___fire_strike_geforce_gtx_1070_20653_marks/ Dry ice: https://uat.hwbot.org/submission/3728863_shar00750_3dmark___fire_strike_geforce_gtx_1070_20220_marks/ 7 minutes ago, Rauf said: For me the fewer results that give points the more you have to focus on quality of your subs and makes it less of a money game. Even if it always will be a money game, you can limit it as best you can. The more you limit the amount of submissions, the more money comes into play. Yet you suggest the opposite. What is more expensive? Using LN2 and top end cpu/memory/mobo to get the most out of your GTX 1070 for one benchmark, or using air/water and do 10 benchmarks with your GTX 1070? Obviously the latter is cheaper. HWBOT has always been about the compromise between showing of world records which are crazy to achieve both in skill and money, and making it fun for the community who just wants to mess around with decent oc's and improved cooling. We don't benefit from excluding either party, but we can't make it ideal for both. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerraRaptor Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 11 minutes ago, Rauf said: Spamming meaningless results? These spamming results make categories popular bringing more points for the first place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GeorgeStorm Posted January 17, 2019 Members Share Posted January 17, 2019 1 minute ago, TerraRaptor said: These spamming results make categories popular bringing more points for the first place. Which undermines the algorithm in my opinion. Also @Rauf I can see where you're coming from, but by limiting it too strongly you're still making it a money game, just instead of hw breadth it's hw depth so to speak, with needing to bin/buy binned hw at a premium. As @richba5tard said, it'll be impossibly to keep everybody happy, but hopefully a compromise can be made 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruno Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 Here are my suggestions: 1. competition points should stay, as motivation to participate. Yet, I don't like the limitation from Road to Pro Division to a single DIV points, when I can bench several platforms for different DIVs and get more competition points in the end. "Top 10 entries of current year (seasonal ranking) and top 10 all time (career ranking) count for member points, no more oc-esports/road to pro/challenger points." That sounds ok! 2. I liked better when points in competitions were percentage of top score, not fixed (50-48-46-etc). That way, you can score no 1 at the stages where you are very good (and get max of points for that score) and even scoring lower at other stages, you have a good chance to hit top3 or top5 in the end. 3. What if the points for a submission would be actual score (eventually divided by something. Ex; 3dmark 03 score of 119206 would give me 119.206 points)? That would not limit the maximum points possible and make the user try to squeeze every bit of performance for a better score. On the other hand, the user final ranking should be calculated with an algorithm that should be dependent on the number of submissions that user made over last year (just the ones that gave the ranking for each benchmark, not all submissions from that year) (basically use seasonal ranking as a parameter in final algorithm). So they lose points for global inactivity along with annual competition points. 4. I like the Career Points idea. 5. Seasonal ranking is not ok as final ranking. 6. OC Esports interface is shit, so get rid of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rauf Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 36 minutes ago, richba5tard said: That's a bad example. All submissions with a 1070 which scored about the same use extreme cooling. This is not an example of unfair points, but of either a very good chip or a user which did not change the "stock cooling" default to the cooling he used. LN2: https://uat.hwbot.org/submission/3578161_buildzoid_3dmark___fire_strike_geforce_gtx_1070_20612_marks/ Chilled water: https://uat.hwbot.org/submission/3929098_totalnet_3dmark___fire_strike_geforce_gtx_1070_20653_marks/ Dry ice: https://uat.hwbot.org/submission/3728863_shar00750_3dmark___fire_strike_geforce_gtx_1070_20220_marks/ The more you limit the amount of submissions, the more money comes into play. Yet you suggest the opposite. What is more expensive? Using LN2 and top end cpu/memory/mobo to get the most out of your GTX 1070 for one benchmark, or using air/water and do 10 benchmarks with your GTX 1070? Obviously the latter is cheaper. HWBOT has always been about the compromise between showing of world records which are crazy to achieve both in skill and money, and making it fun for the community who just wants to mess around with decent oc's and improved cooling. We don't benefit from excluding either party, but we can't make it ideal for both. How can an example that shows exactly what I mean be "bad"? I'm sorry but you just don't know what you're talking about. The clocks are normal for a pascal GPU on stock cooler. There's a reason why these cards don't scale so well on extreme cooling, but it's besides the point. Check 970 then, it's the same story: 970: https://uat.hwbot.org/submission/3992854_dragon_soop_3dmark___fire_strike_geforce_gtx_970_14178_marks or 770: https://uat.hwbot.org/submission/3629333_h2o_vs_ln2_3dmark___fire_strike_geforce_gtx_770_10426_marks or 780: https://uat.hwbot.org/submission/3761539_h2o_vs_ln2_3dmark___fire_strike_geforce_gtx_780_14287_marks or 680: https://uat.hwbot.org/submission/3061153_pulse88_3dmark___fire_strike_geforce_gtx_680_10007_marks or 670: https://uat.hwbot.org/submission/3823010_shar00750_3dmark___fire_strike_geforce_gtx_670_8631_marks Need more? For CPUs it's the same. There are many examples of stupid hw points. Check this profile for example: https://uat.hwbot.org/user/pkbo/#Points And there are many examples of stupid globals also, I've written about them before. The question is WHY do we have points and rankings? WHAT is to be rewarded and what should the rankings show? As long as I have been a member no one has been able to answer this. It's always been a little bit of this and a little bit of that, which meant a system that has no clear purpose. If you don't know the why and what you want to do, how can you do it properly? For me a ranking and points system should always award the best achievements. Not just hand out points arbitrarily to "everyone who wants to mess around with decent oc's". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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