Cautilus' Rev8 Proposal

[Cautilus]

Cautilus' Rev 8 proposal

I've decided to put together all my thoughts regarding Rev8 in this post rather than cluttering up the main Rev8 thread, I'm happy to discuss anything that hasn't already been discussed, like my proposed profile redesign.

Submissions counting towards rankings

Career: 30GL + 50HW

Seasonal: 15GL + 30HW

After reviewing the threads for the polls, I think there is a consensus that lots of submissions should count towards to your career ranking. This makes sense, as it is meant to be a permanant ranking. Where there's been some discussion is for seasonal ranking. I agree that 50 HW subs per year seems a bit much, so I think 15 + 30 is a good compromise between too little and too much.

Member leagues

Leagues should be somewhat simplified as per my thoughts here:

4 leagues:

Novice -  An introductory 3 month league.

Enthusiast - Ambient benchers but also weak chillers and low ambient benchers due to the difficulty in validating these sorts of things. Also there's probably tons of cheated subs anyway, and that'd be a pain in the arse to clean up.

Extreme - Strong chillers, Single stage, cascade, dice, LN2, LHe.

Elite - As per Bones' suggestion.

You will need to qualify for Elite on a seasonal (yearly) basis, so just because you used ES in 2010, doesn't mean you're stuck in Elite forever. You will move between Elite and whatever league you were in before in both seasonal and career rankings. As for what should make you qualify for Elite? Probably up to the moderation team. I imagine sponsership/using ES would get you there, something like that.

I go into some of my reasoning for having more leagues here.

I think this is a good compromise between the 2 leagues and 6 leagues suggestions, that should make both sides satisified. And considering there is significant support for either side of the debate, I don't think we should simplify it, as that removes functionality that almost half of the community wants. The new split between Enthusiast and Extreme should hopefully be less difficult to moderate, as Enthusisast should bottom out at like 0 to -10C, whilst Extreme will be like -35C and below, and therefore clocks/voltages should be fairly different.

Profile redesign and adding leagues to career ranking and worldwide ranking to seasonal ranking

Both career and seasonal ranking should have leagues, I don't see why only seasonal should have leagues but your career ranking doesn't. Similarly, seasonal ranking should have a worldwide ranking like career ranking has. This way, we have consistent ranking types for both career and seasonal rankings. No arbitrary "worldwide is only career ranking" and "career doesn't get leagues". Now both rankings are on equal footing.

Global and hardware cup statistics are moved to a new "Masters Ranking and Accolades" box, which also has your GL Masters, HW Masters, achievement and challenges stats. I think this is better than the current design because it puts cups front and centre and makes them easier to look at, rather having to look to the right hand side of your profile at some random point down the page to see them. This also means other stuff on the right is moved up and perhaps other things can be included on the right, like something from the forums perhaps, or HWBOT news posts.

I've created a mockup of how I think profiles should look - something like this:

Benchmarks available for points

I think we should hold polls for adding any new benchmarks for global points. We've removed a bunch of benchmarks from having them, but we should see if the community would like to add any. For example I think Superposition would be a good candidate for 3D, but obviously open to any thoughts on that.

O.S. used as a mandatory field for new submissions

As per the majority 'yes' response over here, O.S. used should become a mandatory field for new submissions.

Competitions

Every year there should be the Country Cup and Team Cup. They should be on opposite sides of the year so that people don't get burnt out. I would suggest Feb - April for Country Cup and Aug - Oct for Team Cup. This also means the cups will avoid the end of year holiday seasons and whatnot so they won't interfere with family and whatever.

Furthermore I think there should be more individual tournaments on a regular basis. I think quarterly tournaments that run for 2 months, with 1 month of downtime/prep time in between would be good. Tournament details should be released once the previous one has ended to allow people sufficient time to prepare. They should probably be named after the season they start in, e.g. HWBOT 2019 Winter Tournament.

I haven't participated in any individual comps myself, so I'm happy to hear feedback on this. I think having regularly scheduled tournaments is good and should hopefully have decent participation. As for competition points I'm not really fussed about them, so I'm fine with including them in seasonal points, as per what's been announced thus far. Your competition points that add to your seasonal ranking will be derived from your overall position in each quarterly individual tournament, as well as your team's position in the two larger comps, TC & CC.

Achievements

Any achievements that cause unnecessary server load should be cut, I'm sure most people won't mind achievements disappearing if it means better server stability/performance. Achievement showcase will be limited to two achievements, as there's less space now. Perhaps achievements could be moved to the sidebar?

Edited January 18, 2019 by Cautilus

[Guest]

Subscribed to read later 

[GeorgeStorm]

Overall I think it's reasonable.

As mentioned privately I think it would be sensible to have a worldwide ranking for both seasonal and career points. Then you have league, national, team and worldwide ranking for both.

 

May have more to comment on later.

[Splave]

Looks fine to me. 

 

[Cautilus]

I'm thinking of leaving this up for at least a few days to gather discussion/ideas and hopefully garner approval from the administration, and if they give the thumbs up, then either I or the admins would make a poll for the community to decide whether to approve the proposal or not.

[richiec77]

Looks sensible to me. 

[DanKadr]

Sounds great, for all sides. In the end, a compromise has to be made, and this idea looks the best one so far, IMO

[Cautilus]

59 minutes ago, GeorgeStorm said:

As mentioned privately I think it would be sensible to have a worldwide ranking for both seasonal and career points. Then you have league, national, team and worldwide ranking for both.

Just so George doesn't look silly, I actually added this in the post after he commented about it/mentioned it to me.

[Noxinite]

Not bad.

[NATA 58]

as always, enthusiastic league is penalized

[GeorgeStorm]

17 minutes ago, NATA 58 said:

as always, enthusiastic league is penalized

In what way?

[NATA 58]

we need to change the assignment of global points. as it can be used for normal cooling compete with elite and extreme ?

[NATA 58]

how do I get points with cine 15 with h2o cooling

[Mr.Scott]

Enthusiast league should be abolished. Define weak or strong chiller, and you still cannot verify temps proof positive. 

Leagues divided by temp will always be cheated on.

Edited January 18, 2019 by Mr.Scott

[Berhof007]

2 hours ago, NATA 58 said:

we need to change the assignment of global points. as it can be used for normal cooling compete with elite and extreme ?

If u want to compete against extreme and elite guys, you should use better cooling (SS, DICE, LN2..) and stop crying

[Guest]

Step off matey.  Nata58 made #1 enthusiast re benching with a 9900K. I applaud his efforts & understand the competitiveness.

________

To NATA58. You can not compare vs sub zero cooling. The points algorithm gives heavier weighing to best scores LN2.

If your checking in REV9 how you are going, then it will be with other members who do water cooling.

________

As Mr Scott says ... enthusiast cooling cannot be proven

it will be one big league < if that's how it's going soon Rev9 > with Apprentice in there so your #1 status will be lost.  

[Berhof007]

In hwbot "classic" rev8 thread u said:

"PKBO accused for this as well, many times. 1.7v on the processors, chiller under the bench that anyone can see where the tubes lead in screenshot 

Radiator on the windows edge is just for show, fool the onlooker"

So in your opinion PKBO is cheater and NATA58 is a #1? NATA58 is attaching same rig photo everytime and photo, so photo isn't matching used hw + it's impossible to verify used cooling

[Guest]

That's history right there, known about the fish tank chiller for years  Yes rig pics are same for Nata58. But his 3D scores of late are impressive.

From a casual onlookers prospective

I followed what these best  ambient overclockers did. NIK another one who did great scores. Fact is same hardware, same cooling our scores are very similar.

__________

Is it any worse cheating the cooling OR tossing old scores in a comp OR manipulating the PC clock to trick a benchmark faster?

Ice bucket cheats well it goes on. Far worse is the loop hole bandit circumnavigation benchmarks & their scores are entrenched in HWBot undetected. 

_________

This argument of proving cooling should be over soon Rev9  I voted 3x leagues anyway.

So in the future " I can see you members asking what cooling there in your submission " instead of suspicions of cheating sub zero.

 

[Bilko]

I like this proposal overall, it's well thought out and covers most of the concerns people have had.

The main thing that I think I'd like to add to this is adding Chillers and possibly Single Stage units added to Enthusiast as I think this will take most of the doubt out of the equation when trying to work out if this score is using chilled water or they just have low a ambient temp, Something of a "if you can't beat them, join them" solution.

I don't expect that to be a popular idea but I do believe it's the right way to go.

The idea of having Country Cup moved to being earlier in the year I am fully on board with and I expect alot of others will be as well.
The redesign of moving cups to the main area of the profile page I like as well, makes it look cleaner.

I do like the HWBOT achievements but some of them aren't really achievable anymore ( Attend World Tour LN2 Certification), so they could do with a trim or rethink in some areas.
There are also some that could be added or updated such as points gathered using more modern sockets (AM4/TR4) or one for using AMD cards (We have one for 25 ATi cards but not AMD ones).

But that's all my thoughts on this, Thanks to Cautilus for laying this all out

[richiec77]

SS being lumped with Chillers: I don't agree with. I can agree with lumping chillers into Enthusiast as cold ambient temps can equal or slightly exceed chillers. Also takes away ambiguity of if a sub was run on an ice bucket or not as Ice Bucket is slightly better than a non-modified chiller. By 3C. So essentially equal.

SS systems on lower power CPUs, GPU's can reach DICE temps so it does not equal a chiller except for an extreme example.

Chiller use you have to pay attention to condensation, but you don't really need to deal with the same level of insulation and waterproofing an XOC setups needs. 

 

Moving CC to a different time of year I'd appreciate. The holiday season in the US is nutty during the normal timeframe and there was burn out from TC being just before it. 

Edited January 18, 2019 by richiec77

[Bilko]

That is true, SS units on LCC CPUs or smaller GPUs will go further than most chillers can dream to, I was mainly thinking of the higher end of the spectrum (bit short sighted on my part).

Thanks for that Richie

[Guest]

Good reply richie  If enthusiast league stayed & they could use chillers. That would be an excellent solution going forward.

Apprentice still have the same superior cooling 

[Mr.Scott]

My chiller goes colder than cheap SS's. I will move to Enthusiast and people will bitch.

Again, leagues by temp is a proven problem. Nip it in the bud with 3 leagues then. 

 

Edited January 18, 2019 by Mr.Scott

[Guest]

Aye Mr Scott  Enthusiast league stays or goes, I don't care. Some one press the fuKKen HWbotty Rev9 button already 

Summer time Australia is PIA for OC. Idle 44deg Celsius on my 8086K machine here. That's  no enthusiasm from me to do scores

This was cool ambient morning, x2 runs & my water cooling is heated. 

[yosarianilives]

Tbh I still think that leagues by cooling are just a bad idea, should just be rookie league and enthusiast league with a possible addition of sponsored for those that feel it wouldn't be fair for them to compete with everyone else. As for the rest it seems pretty sound to me