Redundancy of CPU-Z

[_mat_]

8 hours ago, Mr.Scott said:

Benchmate doesn't run on legacy Al, or are you in favor of throwing out legacy too?

Whatever. 

It would seem that opinions on legacy have already been made.

You will lose more long time members than you think.

No more posts from me here. 

 

 

Nobody says to throw out legacy or ban XP for legacy. Please read the posts.

It's discussed:

* if scores that already use BenchMate no longer need redundant CPU-Z windows

* if unreleased platforms should no longer be able to use XP

* how to make the bot more accessible for new users and not overcomplicate the rules

[Leeghoofd]

Smal derail on the thread, HWBOT stalling?

I think the rules set has moved along quite well and are as easy as it gets. If you can't get the hang of it, this is not for you.
The Site is more responsive than it was ever before , many bugs have already been fixed. Yeah still tons of work to do, but 2021 is not over yet. Tim is discovering more and more abundant code and deadlocks and is understanding the reasoning behind some "weird" stuff.
...

The "with BenchMate" benchmarks will be merged once Mat is ready with an updated version, so users can choose to use the security and easier autofill of BenchMate or submit the traditional way. That would be a nice step forward.

 

If opening 2 CPUZ tabs is a frustrating or non-usefull experience than I guess one needs to look for another hobby. Especially after tinkering for hours/days/weeks to get the software platform and efficiency right. Previous owners had opted to go for non screenshot subs with TImeSpy and rely on a verification  link only, I guess that worked out well too right. Who broke TimeSpy? We did, not UL.

One made a comparision with vacination. Example: If you enter a venue where they require a particular app on your smartphone, but you show your vaccination card or PCR test result, you might still get refused the entry. Are you vaccinated? yes, but can they refuse your entry? yes.

Relying on BenchMate alone will put an ever bigger strain on Mat and his Team if someting doesn't work, not compatible hardware/certification delays or Windows 11 that allows users to mess even more with software emulation and more crap we really don't need in our hobby. BenchMate requires constant updating and hundreds of manhours and if needed rapid fixes/updates. It is something to think about all.  I'm a Patron, who else is supporting Mat's great work?

Honestly I'm tired of these users that exploit software to get an advantage, they are the reason once more we have this re-ocuring discussion over and over again. Even though they are well aware what they are doing and bending/breaking rules, they always will defend their acts as it's a new found tweak. We need to impose new rules, discuss and in the end people will bring up the same stuff a year or such later..

My 2 cents on OC:

It is the complexity of competititve benching, requiring diferent OSses (mainly the pain to get more efficient aka older OSses to work on modern platforms), the search for the correct drivers or enhanced 3rd party software to make a benchmark run faster or to unlock additional features, these are the reasons that really limits newcomers to join our ranks. It is not the opening of 2 CPUZ tabs that puts them off.

Running benchmarks and pushing hardware is our passion but it is not entertaining enough to keep a crowd focussed for hours like with gaming. Running a game benchmark might make it more interesting, but we need to rely on raw clocks instead of lowering graphical image quality or other nifty software hacks to boost the ouput score. Game benchmarks could be comparable what the gamers run daily, they can compare their setups to ours. That is for me the only way to boost attractivity, not watching SuperPi loop and seeing it crash while being a tenth of second faster. That is for non OCers pretty boring to monitor. 

OC is niche and will remain a niche experience, previous owners tried many formats to make it more attractive, we all know how that ended. You understand that the ruling set and such has been evolving over the years thanks to the let us call it again the "creativity of our own community". Loopholing and the egocentrical mindset of some renown big shots is what brought us to this point and are also one of the reasons some vendors pulled back from supporting OC.

 

I find it entertaining that the OP mentioned the Corsair compo, it is running great with nice participation. My Question: why the newcomers don't participate? Answer:  if you run your daily setup and get 40K and someone immediately at the start of the compo does a place holder of 83K I guess the game is over... People want to enter to win, there was no chance and not even the prizes would get them over here. They even might label it as cheating or vendor supported, we can't touch these guys so why even bother. It was not the rules nor the verification screenshot requirements that limit participation.

Life has rules, so does HWBOT, do we all need to like or agree on them, nope... if you mess up or break them you will have to accept the consequences. Am I the ignorant braindead child still living in the past guy now, yep. Do I care about the previous, nope not anymore...

[CENS]

Thank you for taking the time to post your opinion. However I feel like some parts I read between the like are just rude and I don’t know where this defensive position is coming from. 

I and others posted up a strong score early on in the Corsair comp which in your opinion scares new users. Yet you say the comp is going strong. Does that match? 
 

Hwbot is a competitive platform which goes especially for a competition. Using your wording: 

If competing vs. high scores is frustrating or non-usefull experience than I guess one needs to look for another hobby.

Holding back scores can’t be the solution as it defeats the whole purpose of hwbot and their Rankings /comps.

But enough of firing shots at each other: At the end of the day I wanted to open a discussion with an open mindset of what we can do to make all more accessible to make ppl even start the journey.

One stop shop for downloading, benching, validating and submitting results sounds like the right way where applicable like 3Dmark.

Bottom line is the right ppl in charge just need to get back at the table and talk options and solutions the time is right.

Edited September 4, 2021 by CENS

[Leeghoofd]

The Corsair compo could  have been so much more, it has a strong competitive field of our community members, but nearly no newcomers. You should have seen the reactions on the Discord channels when you posted the placeholder. 

The newcomers, that is the entire reasoning behind the this whole thread correct? The ommitance of the CPUZ tabs when using BM, to make benchmarking easier and more accessible? 

My entire point of my previous rant post is is that the level of restrictions laid down by the rules and the required verification screenshot are not the sole cause of the participation level in compos or HWBOT in general. Think about how freakingly expensive Hardware is and even harder to get hold of these days. That's another reason to cherish the legacy benchers, they are a vast value and need to be taken care off. 

To be competitve you need to indulge yourself in different OSses, tweaks,... like explained before. OC has a hard learning curve and some just don't have the dedication or motivation to get it done... even though OC tools make it soooo much easier versus 10 years ago.

Take XTU, so easy to do, but from the 4K subs we get a month, how many continue to come back and start to bench other benchmarks?

Many newcomers also think that a one time big investment in the latest and greatest will make them shine, so they will get a sponsorship deal and that they can keep up their ranking by posting a score once in a while. I guess we all know better.  It's an attitude that BM nor we can't change... 

If I was rude, my apologies, I'm not a keyboard guy, I speak from the heart. 

 

[CENS]

You’re right man, a lot if factors that play a role, expensive prices to build one system let alone binning multiple parts. It’s just something we have to accept if we chose to do it as we can’t change it. 

As Roman pointed out we could role out changes for upcoming products and field test them, that’s not too radical and for legacy nothing changes. Great opportunity for hwbot/Benchmate imho.

Let’s get involved: Will the main players set up a meeting over discord/Skype etc? I think we are not far off finding a decent middle ground for now, guys just need to talk details.

Edited September 4, 2021 by CENS

[_mat_]

I'm up for it! ❤️

[der8auer]

19 hours ago, _mat_ said:

Having more time now to answer properly.

I understand the problems that I am just one guy keeping the main part alive. I do have a team, two guys doing web stuff for the validation platform (still unreleased and currently on ice due to other work arrangements we need to finance our lives) and one graphics designer. But the truth is that all you can currently see, the win application, was made by myself. For now at least.

I don't like that at all and yes, it's risky. But so is HWiNFO (Martin, 1 guy) and CPU-Z (Franck, 1 guy). HWBOT itself was basically coded by one guy as well. If you don't have the money for redundancy, you have to take the risk.

That said, early on when Roman decided to buy HWBOT we got in touch and talked about the opportunity for a cooperation or maybe even more so there is no form of competition for an already difficult niché. It did not work out at the time (guess Roman was busy, it happens), but I am still up for an official cooperation to bring overclocking and benching to a whole new level and to even out the odds that BenchMate could die from one day to the next.

In any case, my will leaves the source code of the software to Splave. I sincerely believe that he would know what to do with it.

Let's just talk during the next days/weeks to get back on what we planed  Just too much stuff going on and too much other things we had to fix on here first

[GeorgeStorm]

"If competing vs. high scores is frustrating or non-usefull experience than I guess one needs to look for another hobby."

And if you can't manage to open a couple of cpu-z screens then..... haha.

 

 

[Splave]

What do you guys say about when you can finish a threaded benchmark, and then cpuz crashes your score? Or 5 minutes of pi then cpuz wont open? How is that fair to the bencher that is doing all the tweaks and days of pretesting to be killed by the validation software? We like to use metaphors here so that would be ummm like Usain Bolt beating the 100m dash record but sorry one the judges was taking a piss so it doesnt count. Better luck next olympics.

[Mr.Scott]

Happens to everybody. One of the hazards of our hobby. Sucks but it is what it is.

[Antinomy]

On 9/5/2021 at 3:25 AM, Splave said:

What do you guys say about when you can finish a threaded benchmark, and then cpuz crashes your score? Or 5 minutes of pi then cpuz wont open? How is that fair to the bencher that is doing all the tweaks and days of pretesting to be killed by the validation software?

We're all equal in this. But I like your point - yes, after time CPU-Z has become more stressful than benchmarks themself, which is ridiculous. And if alternative verifications apps will be approved (like HWinfo, BM) it would give a nice opportunity to squeeze some more.

On 9/4/2021 at 8:38 PM, Leeghoofd said:

The Corsair compo could  have been so much more, it has a strong competitive field of our community members, but nearly no newcomers. You should have seen the reactions on the Discord channels when you posted the placeholder. 

You know what happens if you'll try to take your daily driver to a drag racing? Same thing. Like one said,

On 9/4/2021 at 6:40 PM, Leeghoofd said:

Life has rules

I can't see how a general purpose car could or should compete with a custom racing build. Same thing for overclocking.

On 9/4/2021 at 6:40 PM, Leeghoofd said:

Running a game benchmark might make it more interesting, but we need to rely on raw clocks instead of lowering graphical image quality or other nifty software hacks to boost the ouput score.

Aquamark is a game benchmark precisely (ever heard of Aquanox?).

On 9/4/2021 at 6:40 PM, Leeghoofd said:

Game benchmarks could be comparable what the gamers run daily, they can compare their setups to ours.

That's the whole point and goal of what Futuremark/UL are doing for more than 20 years.

On 9/4/2021 at 6:40 PM, Leeghoofd said:

I'm a Patron, who else is supporting Mat's great work?

If I didn't start with only problems to get, I suppose I'd be one.

On 9/4/2021 at 6:40 PM, Leeghoofd said:

I think the rules set has moved along quite well and are as easy as it gets. If you can't get the hang of it, this is not for you.

Yep, if only we had a place where we can just read them, that would be lovely. Usually it's some here and there and some you need to figure out on your own and new benchmarks that have their own new rules. And after you're done, a year has past and you need to start all over again because rules have changed and there a bunch of new benchmarks. Don't get me wrong - the rules are good. But the way they're composed is hard to get into them. I suppose I've asked around ten times about different rules and benchmarks. And that it I don't consider myself dumb and I've read the rules page more than once before asking each time.

I suggest we should narrow the conversation and not bring all the stuff here, just take one question at a time.

[yosarianilives]

I think that's IF we're going to require newer os, maybe require benchmate etc then making it from certain architecture onwards seems like the best way. That way we don't end up with unbeatable legacy score but we can also implement newer requirements. 

[Splave]

I think the idea of allowing hwinfo is interesting as well. 

[Strunkenbold]

Quick solution would be to just automatically launching those two CPU-Z windows when you click on save result in BM. Guess this would be no big deal for @_mat_ to implement, wouldnt it? 

[_mat_]

No, it's not a big deal, I can do it. But I rather not if it's not absolutely necessary. I think the workflow would be much cleaner and less confusing for newcomers without the redundancy. But if a decision is made to continue with mandatory CPU-Z for BM validated scores, I can add a helper to enforce it. I have some ideas for that.

[unityofsaints]

Let's get rid of the benchmark window and benchmate as well while we're at it, then everyone can just sub screenshots of empty desktops and make up their own scores

Edited October 2, 2021 by unityofsaints

[Splave]

19 hours ago, unityofsaints said:

Let's get rid of the benchmark window and benchmate as well while we're at it, then everyone can just sub screenshots of empty desktops and make up their own scores

I have been just using photoshop for years myself, havent gotten caught yet #1 baby! 

Honestly I think its interesting to see some names that used to be in the top 10 that arent even in the top 20 anymore coinciding around the advent of benchmate. Curious indeed.