Crew Sweet Posted October 17, 2012 Crew Posted October 17, 2012 (edited) Guys in this world, anywhere in the world, there are people who can easily develop a cheat to any benchmark, but that's not right in the overclocking, this is a cheat there is no king of software these days, any overclocker can develop a cheat to modify the final score, some overclockers have done this in my country., but dont use this because they think is illegal, like in Brasil and anothers countrys. I say Cheat i use that word too knut Edited October 17, 2012 by Sweet Quote
Mr.Scott Posted October 17, 2012 Posted October 17, 2012 I say Cheat i use that word too knut Does the rest of the staff share you guys same opinions?..........willingly? Quote
zeneffect Posted October 17, 2012 Posted October 17, 2012 (edited) How a user shows the tweaks is not our choice, it can be a public thread. And tbh I doubt that if those tweaks were "mod public" they'd stay that way. That would be ethically wrong. No need to comment on the rest of your post, then? please elaborate further about a tweak shown or demonstrated in private via pm or livestream to a staff member there can be 100% certainty that that staff member will either A.) not share it or B.) not use it themselves. sure it would be "ethically wrong" for a staff member to abuse their privileges this way, however we have already seen it happen. (to be clear, we know a staff member has used the text edit tweak which we all agree to be an exploit... i.e. replace test files with a blank file) the problem is that there is no disinterested 3rd party. if everybody is a player, without the existance of "proper" referees, its not a sport. *edit* i re-read my previous post and id like to clarify a few things it makes being hwbot staff an over-privileged position when viewed from a competitive benchmarking standpoint as a user may have to be forced to "show all their cards." when i mean "over-priviged" i mean it literally... as in having a clear advantage over the competition (everybody NOT on the same team) when able or are forced to see a suspected tweak in private due to their duty obligations. "show all their cards" - public or private it does not matter, the fact is if done privately, it is now between the staff member and the user. there is no real resolution to the person who developed the tweak as now not only 1 person has the tweak but 2. for example... say party A knows 1 tweak and party B knows another. 1 party each knows their own tweak which gives both of them leverage to either learn their opponents tweak or another tweak for another benchmark, or a 32m OS, etc.. by "trading" information. however when having to get a ruling on what is a legal tweak a (any) staff member now has information which in the event is deemed "legal" can now use that information for his own benefit without giving anything in return. there is no real guarentee or transparency that this will not happen. (http://www.3dmark.com/pcm05/3171364) "word of mouth" was a general statement, not ment towards staff memebers only, but to everybody... its true, people talk and "things" get around. none of us can be trusted to become a disinterested 3rd party "referee." PCM05 has been a perfect example of these arguments... i vote knopflerbruce to become the disinterested 3rd party, pull his points, and never bench again. Do it for the team... do it for HWBot... do it for PCM05! not flaming here or trolling (well a little trolling) but I think these are valid points that have been touched upon in this thread but never discussed. Edited October 18, 2012 by zeneffect Quote
I.nfraR.ed Posted October 18, 2012 Posted October 18, 2012 (edited) Trust me. We use exactly the same way for TE. 0 characters in the temp file. You just set more than 0 so you have a worse score...or if it's not exactly the same it's almost the same. Yep, I still don't understand how this is called "tweak". You directly mess with the way benchmark is meant to run, in other words - change the calculation. How on earth an (almost) empty file is comparable to the original .rtf which those who don't "tweak" use... Guys who defend these "tweaks", please have some dignity and look farther than your nose. There are a lot ot capable guys, who can figure out those "tweaks", but they just don't see the point. Edited October 18, 2012 by I.nfraR.ed Quote
Crew Sweet Posted October 18, 2012 Crew Posted October 18, 2012 Yep,I still don't understand how this is called "tweak". You directly mess with the way benchmark is meant to run, in other words - change the calculation. How on earth an (almost) empty file is comparable to the original .rtf which those who don't "tweak" use... Guys who defend these "tweaks", please have some dignity and look farther than your nose. There are a lot ot capable guys, who can figure out those "tweaks", but they just don't see the point. I.nfraR.ed Imho sofos1990 wants to show the same thing that you said, to use this type of things is a cheat, or i'm wrong ? Quote
zeneffect Posted October 18, 2012 Posted October 18, 2012 (edited) I.nfraR.ed Imho sofos1990 wants to show the same thing that you said, to use this type of things is a cheat, or i'm wrong ? there is another way to do TE though... LEGALLY. if a staff member is shown, how is that fair that they can bench for points after forcing a member to reveal their tweak? it would be much more "fair" if there were a dedicated moderator that does not bench for points or silverware to act as judge if suspicion arises. rabblerabblerabble on a side note... why are you knuckleheads (general public) still submitting pcm05 right now? i see two on the front page. Edited October 18, 2012 by zeneffect Quote
Crew Sweet Posted October 18, 2012 Crew Posted October 18, 2012 (edited) If a member of staff has used, handled or delivered information outside the staff moderation, is that it has exceeded its authority and failed in the ethics of competition. Perhaps like others benchers, have developed their own tweak and used in the in PCMark Because the benchmark have serious holes, i think so (so benchers are) on a side note... why are you knuckleheads (general public) still submitting pcm05 right now? i see two on the front page. Is our fault, By now, PcMark is under serious discussion in the staff, soon many submission will be blocked Edited October 18, 2012 by Sweet Quote
zeneffect Posted October 18, 2012 Posted October 18, 2012 (edited) If a member of staff has used, handled or delivered information outside the staff moderation, is that it has exceeded its authority and failed in the ethics of competition. ^ a very true and just statement. The Tweaks i know i have told to Chris. But i dont know 180k TW, 300mill MA. For Web page i did the same i told to Chris, but 30% i score more only with some OS Tweaks;) You only have to ask Christian, he has TE and webpage too and use it http://www.3dmark.com/pcm05/3171364 last but not least.... wasnt pcm05 part of team cup? wont rankings for stage 6 have to be re-evaluate? Edited October 18, 2012 by zeneffect Quote
Moose83 Posted October 18, 2012 Posted October 18, 2012 Because if you find something that raises the score too much there is a VERY high chance you're manipulating the calculation. Most of the new tweaks are indeed cheats (yes, I use that word), and that proves my point. If it's too good to be true, then it probably is. A "normal" tweak would boost the score by a couple of percent max. It's what we're used to from most other benchmarks. Thats bullshit! You can tweak some subtests nearly 30% without replacing anything! give it to the staff-never... Quote
TerraRaptor Posted October 18, 2012 Posted October 18, 2012 Thats bunnyextraction! You can tweak some subtests nearly 30% without replacing anything!give it to the staff-never... You say those >30% tweaks are made by manipulations with .tmp? Quote
sheffline_85 Posted October 18, 2012 Posted October 18, 2012 I think after this Scrin humor of some people in this topic will be replaced with sadness and fear?))) he-he Intel P4 630, 45 Pages default before tweak ))) Quote
sheffline_85 Posted October 18, 2012 Posted October 18, 2012 I'm for fair play and so I think the use of these tweaks are not honest. We have to compete in dispersal and the ability to optimize the system, and not to find holes in the tests. I very much hope that the majority of similar results would soon be blocked and their owners punished ban?! Quote
GENiEBEN Posted October 18, 2012 Posted October 18, 2012 (edited) Like I promised, I improved my wordpad engine to read only until a new line \n\ is found instead of EOF. -EDIT: wrong screenshot lolz- Edited October 18, 2012 by GENiEBEN Quote
knopflerbruce Posted October 18, 2012 Posted October 18, 2012 please elaborate further about a tweak shown or demonstrated in private via pm or livestream to a staff member there can be 100% certainty that that staff member will either A.) not share it or B.) not use it themselves. sure it would be "ethically wrong" for a staff member to abuse their privileges this way, however we have already seen it happen. (to be clear, we know a staff member has used the text edit tweak which we all agree to be an exploit... i.e. replace test files with a blank file) the problem is that there is no disinterested 3rd party. if everybody is a player, without the existance of "proper" referees, its not a sport. *edit* i re-read my previous post and id like to clarify a few things it makes being hwbot staff an over-privileged position when viewed from a competitive benchmarking standpoint as a user may have to be forced to "show all their cards." when i mean "over-priviged" i mean it literally... as in having a clear advantage over the competition (everybody NOT on the same team) when able or are forced to see a suspected tweak in private due to their duty obligations. "show all their cards" - public or private it does not matter, the fact is if done privately, it is now between the staff member and the user. there is no real resolution to the person who developed the tweak as now not only 1 person has the tweak but 2. for example... say party A knows 1 tweak and party B knows another. 1 party each knows their own tweak which gives both of them leverage to either learn their opponents tweak or another tweak for another benchmark, or a 32m OS, etc.. by "trading" information. however when having to get a ruling on what is a legal tweak a (any) staff member now has information which in the event is deemed "legal" can now use that information for his own benefit without giving anything in return. there is no real guarentee or transparency that this will not happen. (http://www.3dmark.com/pcm05/3171364) "word of mouth" was a general statement, not ment towards staff memebers only, but to everybody... its true, people talk and "things" get around. none of us can be trusted to become a disinterested 3rd party "referee." PCM05 has been a perfect example of these arguments... i vote knopflerbruce to become the disinterested 3rd party, pull his points, and never bench again. Do it for the team... do it for HWBot... do it for PCM05! not flaming here or trolling (well a little trolling) but I think these are valid points that have been touched upon in this thread but never discussed. Make it fully public. I don't care, the important part is that the mods will have a chance to verify the tweak as a tweak and not a cheat. From a moderator's point of view that's what matters. And showing to one member of the staff isn't enough, there MUST be a thread on the crew section so ALL of us can check it. Otherwise you'd have the same situation as we had until recently, where just one or two knew the tricks and could tell right from wrong. I wouldn't pull my points if someone offered me a million dollars:D Quote
sheffline_85 Posted October 18, 2012 Posted October 18, 2012 who would have offered me a million dollars? Money would take, but did not do anything)))) Quote
crustytheclown Posted October 18, 2012 Posted October 18, 2012 imho the thing with this benchmark is you can achieve give or take the same result either by changing files,codecs tmp files at the pcmark folder OR changing the way your os sees them... text edit:change temp rtf file (not good) OR change riched library to give always 0 in any search it does (you tell me),the result would be the almost same... TW: it's all about flash desktop and DWM settings WBR:most know some good IE settings.What if i write a custom css and intergrate it to IE (which has this function in the settings) and just let it render any html that has text and only text... 200+pages here i come... the same can be achieved with just replacing the temp file... Video and Audio:change the dll in the pcmark file and bypass the submission error in futeremark OR write a script and everytime the computer tries to use vorbis.dll let's say to bypass it and use an other one in system32 folder.Again the result will just be a little bit worse... What about Memory latency.Memory pool quota when running the latency test is VERRRRRRYYYY hard to get... but doable... just tell the os when it runs latency test just low the momory pool quota and let it take most of the random 16mb out of cpu's cache and let it fly...OR use a method that i don't want to talk about and give you an error in futuremark... All above is the gray area of pcmark in my eyes...I think the benchmark has evolved a lot,which is good because more and more people have become interested in it, but has reached a level that it cannot be controlled... I mean why keep the xp startup limit then,or keep the bugged amd drivers... that's just me though... PS sorry for my bad English Quote
knopflerbruce Posted October 18, 2012 Posted October 18, 2012 The mem latency one I do not get, and I haven't checked out flash desktop or the DWM settings, but the others are clear cheats. No grey area, definately no-no. They all involve a manipulation of the calculation. Quote
Crew Sweet Posted October 18, 2012 Crew Posted October 18, 2012 (edited) No some can done without replacing Also Audio Compression like TE and the others , thats right ? For example , upload yesterday http://hwbot.org/submission/2321638_gluvocio_pcmark_2005_core_2_e8400_(3.0ghz)_76349_marks http://hwbot.org/submission/2321571_sebro_pcmark_2005_core_i7_2700k_106199_marks So this is a "cheat" too, if all these cheats are changing the root of the benchmark, ALL must be removed, thats all my friends Edited October 18, 2012 by Sweet Quote
Massman Posted October 18, 2012 Posted October 18, 2012 give it to the staff-never... If it's for you unthinkable to explain your scores to the staff, then maybe this site is not for you ... We can talk about the dedicated PCM05 moderator to not be allowed to make submissions himself, but you would still have to explain the 'tweak' to him. If you don't accept the staff asking questions, this is not your place to be Quote
zeneffect Posted October 18, 2012 Posted October 18, 2012 (edited) If it's for you unthinkable to explain your scores to the staff, then maybe this site is not for you ... We can talk about the dedicated PCM05 moderator to not be allowed to make submissions himself, but you would still have to explain the 'tweak' to him. If you don't accept the staff asking questions, this is not your place to be explaining the tweak to a disinterested staff member that does not participate for points would be ideal as they are not "competition." oddly enough I can see where Moose is coming from though. He has explained a tweak in private to a staff member, and that member used it for their own personal gain. The trust relationship between HWbot and the end user has been broken by the staff. If this had happened to me, I would be very reluctant to continue to explain a tweak. Make it fully public. I don't care, the important part is that the mods will have a chance to verify the tweak as a tweak and not a cheat. From a moderator's point of view that's what matters. And showing to one member of the staff isn't enough, there MUST be a thread on the crew section so ALL of us can check it. Otherwise you'd have the same situation as we had until recently, where just one or two knew the tricks and could tell right from wrong. I wouldn't pull my points if someone offered me a million dollars:D The point is that we ALL understand that the staff has to moderate the scores somehow and that sometimes it involves revealing a tweak for judgement. That is fine, unavoidable, and expected in ANY type of competition. what is not right is that the staff participates for points, leaving no real 3rd party to truly moderate the scores while protecting the intellectual property of the end user. give me a million, i will pull all 30 points i have and moderate all this biach... I dont think we need a dedicated PCM05 moderator that doesn't participate in points. We need a dedicated moderator for ALL benchmarks that does not participate for points. By the current policy, the critical flaw still exists where any new legitimate tweak is not protected as it still has to revealed to staff members who participate in points and can use it for their own benefit... which has happened... and has not been addressed (as far as we know.) Edited October 18, 2012 by zeneffect Quote
Moose83 Posted October 18, 2012 Posted October 18, 2012 (edited) Crusty explained it wonderfully! For all the Tweaks, like WebPR, TE Audio and so on...There are 2 ways, i already said it;) Wen we dont change files in pcmark folder, so it is no cheat, than its tweaking. What i did in my OS, or say him what to do, this my thing;) Or is it forbitten too, to change Settings in Registry or Windows, lol Its hard work, to get such tweaks, it tooks many time. And then i should give it the staff, that staff can use it by own??? Edited October 18, 2012 by Moose83 Quote
knopflerbruce Posted October 18, 2012 Posted October 18, 2012 Crusty explained it wonderfully! For all the Tweaks, like WebPR, TE Audio and so on...There are 2 ways, i already said it;) Wen we dont change files in pcmark folder, so it is no cheat, than its tweaking. What i did in my OS, or say him what to do, this my thing;) Or is it forbitten too, to change Settings in Registry or Windows, lol Its hard work, to get such tweaks, it tooks many time. And then i should give it the staff, that staff can use it by own??? if a certain registry or windows setting causes the computation to be "useless", it's still not allowed. Your hard work is worth nothing if it isn't within the rules in the first place:p So everyone who worked out how to replace temp files kinda wasted their time. Quote
Crew Sweet Posted October 18, 2012 Crew Posted October 18, 2012 He has explained a tweak in private to a staff member, and that member used it for their own personal gain. Are you shure of this ? Moose83 please, explain What has happened to the tricks you consult with staff Can you explain this ? Thank you Quote
GENiEBEN Posted October 18, 2012 Posted October 18, 2012 Crusty explained it wonderfully! For all the Tweaks, like WebPR, TE Audio and so on...There are 2 ways, i already said it;) Funny thing is for the 2nd "way" Windows gives you the tool. No matter how much I work on the wrapper I still find ways to beat myself :\ He has explained a tweak in private to a staff member, and that member used it for their own personal gain Besides me and CN I dont recall any HWB staff using any of these tweaks. CN got it from me (after gluv already leaked it from me...) and I made it myself (good thing I keep Sent PMs). Care to explain? Quote
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