Crew pro Posted May 19, 2014 Crew Share Posted May 19, 2014 Hey all, The intention of this thread is to propose possible solutions to issues that the Pro Cup has introduced. This is intended as a constructive discussion that may help resolve a number of outstanding issues. Lets start with the problems with the current model of the Pro Cup, Pro Cup Individual ranking and OC league structure. 1. Competitors of the pro cup can't compete in any individual rankings. There is of course the pro cup individual ranking, but this isn't a true ranking, but instead based only on the competition benchmarks. In a competition like the pro cup a single score might be the culmination of the whole teams world, an individual ranking doesn't always make much sense. 2. Those wanting to be in a true individual ranking can't compete in the pro cup. Lets take Vivi for example, he is #1 in the overclockers league, but he can't compete in the pro cup. This should be the worlds most prestigious overclocking competition. Lets face it, a pro cup without Vivi, SniperOZ or wizerty isn't a true pro cup. For them to have to leave their hard earned top ten rankings to join certainly doesn't encourage them to join. 3. If you are a pro overclocker or use ES and don't want to be in the pro cup you are forced into limbo. Lets look at the TeamAU account for example, the only rankings we can appear in is the individual benchmark rankings. There is another issue that I want to touch on, but keep out of this discussion. The OC league is meant for non-pro, but what is pro? It is very hard to define what is pro and what isn't. We probably need a clear up that "what is pro" definition and enforce it heavier if you want a true oc league. For example you could probably say the majority of top ten OC league right now probably are pro. As I see it there a few solutions that fit the mould. 1. Leave things as they are This isn't a solution per se, but it is a possible option. 2. Allow OC league participants into the pro league. Leave the pro league individual rankings as they are, and keep classifying who is and isn't pro by if they use ES or not. Under this method, non-ES pro cup participants like Dancop or Vivi can participate in the Pro Cup and OC League. This is the absolute minimum change that should take place for the Pro Cup to thrive. 3. Reintroduce the pro league. This is my preferred option and I will explain why. When the pro cup was being discussed, all discussions initially centered around a F1OC competition. A certain amount of pointed rounds per season, with a champion crowned at the end. The idea was to have a competition that was off to the side of current HWBOT leagues, so all could participate. As it has turned out, the format HWBOT has chosen of all benchmarks running simultaneously is working well however the exclusion of some of the best overclockers isn't. Reintroducing the pro league will fix a number of issues, it helps to separate the pro cup from existing leagues. Firstly those that choose not to enter the pro cup have a place to compete. Secondly there should be no reason why OC league participants cant enter the pro league. Finally non-OC league participants have a true individual ranking, where world records are actually counted in an individual ranking system. It has been said the pro league was not exciting so it was removed, however reintroducing it fixes a problem, regardless how exciting it is or isn't. Furthermore the vote to keep the pro league was an overwhelming yes by both moderators and those involved in the rankings. It would seem the removal of the league against the will of the participants has only introduced problems and not resulted in any benefits. You could chose to keep or scrap the pro cup individual ranking, it has no impact to the solution either way. On a personal level these issues have stopped myself and TeamAU getting involved in the pro cup from the beginning. Regardless if we enter in the future or not, I want to enjoy watching the best pro cup possible, one that includes Vivi, wiz, mtech, zolio, sniper, moose, etc. I'd love to hear others input on these suggestions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massman Posted May 19, 2014 Share Posted May 19, 2014 Thanks for this thread! I am looking forward to reading the opinions. For me, I think the top priority should be to find a consensus in the community on how to define a professional overclocking. For those who may have forgotten, the Pro OC League was introduce after a discussion sparked by the community to have a separate league for the people who are not very connected to the industry. It may be interesting to read through that thread again to understand the motivation. Keep in mind that this proposal came in a time where the Gulftown A0 chips were king and the Overclockers League was dominated by industry-level overclockers like AndreYang, NickShih and HiCookie. We are now 4 years later and the scene has changed a bit. Firstly, it is no longer the case that ES hardware is much better. Certainly it happens that sometimes at launch the ES hardware is better, but that is usually because of sample size rather than inherent quality differences. It is possible to compete with retail today. Secondly, the support is a bit more widespread than it was before. There is more sampling done for overclocking as there is a wider selection of products that target overclockers specifically. Thirdly, there are more sources for buying binned hardware. Fourthly, the level of skill has gone up significantly. There are more people today than ever before who can easily handle CPU+VGA+MEM LN2 cooling. The question is: what is the difference between someone who competes at a professional level (eg: receives hardware, has access to tools like afterburner or special bioses) and someone who competes without ties to the industry? In my opinion, any change to the league structures is function of this definition. If (for example) Vivi is considered Pro and should move to a Professional grade league or competition, only then we can consider what is an appropriate structure for the competition. If we consider Mtech or Zzolio (two examples of pro) professional, the appropriate structure might be different. Because we all know that there is a difference between K|npg|n, 8 Pack, Vivi, Mtech or Team.AU in terms of level of support and available resources. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crew pro Posted May 19, 2014 Author Crew Share Posted May 19, 2014 I agree that is an important issue, but I would like to keep that for another thread. At this stage I'd like to tackle the problem head on. Definitions of pro oc and applying that to the structure can be done retrospectively with all 3 of these options. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ObscureParadox_3XS Posted May 19, 2014 Share Posted May 19, 2014 I also believe that the Pro OC'ers should have a league ranking similar to the XOC one or just be combined with the current XOC. For me climbing the league is one of the biggest motivators for me to continue benching. I'm not Pro of course so it will be interesting to see what the pros think of the matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Splave Posted May 19, 2014 Share Posted May 19, 2014 (edited) massman I think your idea of ES being the same as retail is not wrong but its missing the point. A tray of ES processors can be readily available for some if you have connections deep enough to a company, where as retail is a bit harder to come by in such quantity. Just a side thought. I agree with Pro in pretty much every way. I am lost in the pro league personally as its usually dominated by 3d benches and it all seems a bit boring to me. I miss the old style of pro league. Edited May 19, 2014 by Splave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dinos22 Posted May 20, 2014 Share Posted May 20, 2014 Agree, the only logical solution is option 3 really Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crew Vivi Posted May 22, 2014 Crew Share Posted May 22, 2014 i think we have discussed this for enough years, we need a solution not keep discussing the problem for another few years i agree with option 3, lets get pro-league back. please Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GENiEBEN Posted May 22, 2014 Share Posted May 22, 2014 Why not be all in XOC and just be able to compete in Pro at free will, with separate ranking, without affecting XOC score/position? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crew Vivi Posted May 22, 2014 Crew Share Posted May 22, 2014 Why not be all in XOC and just be able to compete in Pro at free will, with separate ranking, without affecting XOC score/position? massman mentioned something like this, where the super supported pro's have a different color like black, and the non-supported blue. so even if you are 6th in the XOC league, you are #1 in blue, which means you are the number one non-supported overclocker. so you still get your "1st place recognition" but you are in the same rankings as everyone. instead of leagues defining us lets get tags defining us. Manufacturer tag - hicookie kp nickhshih sofos etc, and pro-supported like me Xtreme addict 8pack teamau etc, anyone that gets sample now and then or very often, and the last is 100% non-sponsored and non ES (which i find hard to believe). we have all these people in the same league, XOC, but they all have different tags / colors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uncle fester Posted May 22, 2014 Share Posted May 22, 2014 .....out of the mist he appears.... Who's ready for some battleraps........... AIIIIIIIGGGHHHHTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT obviously I am going with option 3, that's how many men JL likes on his knee's, 8 pack taking 8 sacks, protein shakes from 8 blacks, relax, relax, its not your fault you like men's cracks, but listening to MM's vacuous crap, its actual fact, no one cares cos its talent he lacks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.Scott Posted May 22, 2014 Share Posted May 22, 2014 Talented guy. ^^^^ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dinos22 Posted May 22, 2014 Share Posted May 22, 2014 finally motherboard molester makes some sense Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeepBeep2 Posted May 23, 2014 Share Posted May 23, 2014 (edited) Thanks for this thread! I am looking forward to reading the opinions. For me, I think the top priority should be to find a consensus in the community on how to define a professional overclocking. For those who may have forgotten, the Pro OC League was introduce after a discussion sparked by the community to have a separate league for the people who are not very connected to the industry. It may be interesting to read through that thread again to understand the motivation. Keep in mind that this proposal came in a time where the Gulftown A0 chips were king and the Overclockers League was dominated by industry-level overclockers like AndreYang, NickShih and HiCookie. We are now 4 years later and the scene has changed a bit. Firstly, it is no longer the case that ES hardware is much better. Certainly it happens that sometimes at launch the ES hardware is better, but that is usually because of sample size rather than inherent quality differences. It is possible to compete with retail today. Secondly, the support is a bit more widespread than it was before. There is more sampling done for overclocking as there is a wider selection of products that target overclockers specifically. Thirdly, there are more sources for buying binned hardware. Fourthly, the level of skill has gone up significantly. There are more people today than ever before who can easily handle CPU+VGA+MEM LN2 cooling. The question is: what is the difference between someone who competes at a professional level (eg: receives hardware, has access to tools like afterburner or special bioses) and someone who competes without ties to the industry? In my opinion, any change to the league structures is function of this definition. If (for example) Vivi is considered Pro and should move to a Professional grade league or competition, only then we can consider what is an appropriate structure for the competition. If we consider Mtech or Zzolio (two examples of pro) professional, the appropriate structure might be different. Because we all know that there is a difference between K|npg|n, 8 Pack, Vivi, Mtech or Team.AU in terms of level of support and available resources. Take a look at fugger's 4770K...I'm not saying that that is a good example of an ES that beats retails, because there are obviously some great retails, but it is a very good ES. We've seen all too many times ES steppings crush retails, even AMD Phenom II C0/C1 steppings were very good vs most C2. cdawall's 945 ES was damn impressive and those chips had crazy voltage tolerance. To say that it is possible to compete with retail today is imho a b*****t statement because it's not really clear. As far as your statements on "sampling done for overclocking", do you mean binning by overclockers, or better retail parts? So many retail parts are total horse s**t...and as far as sources for buying binned hardware, yes. Some guys sell their lucky chips for an arm and a leg. Level of skill argument doesn't apply, just because you have more products available and more people using them without blowing stuff up IMHO doesn't dictate "skill"...insulating is a relatively standard task and pouring LN2 into GPU / memory pot is not much different than a CPU pot...the guys tweaking memory timings and etc. for 0.2% better efficiency are those that are usually dedicated with skill. Edited May 23, 2014 by BeepBeep2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Gappo Posted May 23, 2014 Share Posted May 23, 2014 I am definitely picking up the motherboard molesters album when it drops. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strat Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 Thumbs up for #3 or even more, 4 thumbs up for solution proposed by Vivi and Genebien. I was sooo sad to left my hard earned 5th spot in XOC League. But well I wanted try Pro OC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wizerty Posted May 26, 2014 Share Posted May 26, 2014 This is an hard task... First, I'm agree with : - No personal ranking is not fun when you are pro, BUT, play as a team is nice, I'm bored to bench alone . This is why I want to join pro-oc, to play as a team - Pro and "no-pro" in the same ranking is the better way to discourage "no pro" overclocker... "no pro" can't fight again pro with heavy support. It's not only a matter of skill, but hard to beat someone with 200 free cpu, many high end vga... Use different color, why not, but honestly, if you're n°6 (black and blue) , but first in blue, you remain N°6... ----- How to make difference between pro and "no pro".... no clue... "no pro" = no support, OK "pro" = support OK But if you're a "no pro", and someone send you a PSU, or mem stick, you become pro ? no-way, you can't compete For example, asus sent me free motherboard, but I have to pay all my cpu, all my vga, all my LN2.... I'm pro or not ? For sure, free R4BE = 400$ gift... but one time , in other hand, I have to paie for 46x 4770k, 8x 290x + all other stuff, LN2... it make a huge difference vs 8pack, Andre... I think rules are not bad, if you work for hardware compagny = pro // If you used ES = Pro // If not, you're not a Pro, but you can join pro-oc if you want to. It will be hard for you, but you choosed it, so you can't complain We can add a special rule, if you are N°1 in XOC for 3month, 6month, 2 years (i don't know), you are good enough to join Pro automatically. Finally : Enthusiast XOC PRO league + PRO-OC ? It's nice to have individual ranking, but it's nice to compete as a team... or the solution is to make a team account ? like TEAM-AU ? This way you can play team + individual in the same time, but it's not fair play, team Vs guy... Too hard... don't know what is the best, this is the first time I don't know what I want... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeropluszero Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massman Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 mentioned something like this, where the super supported pro's have a different color like black, and the non-supported blue. so even if you are 6th in the XOC league, you are #1 in blue, which means you are the number one non-supported overclocker. so you still get your "1st place recognition" but you are in the same rankings as everyone. instead of leagues defining us lets get tags defining us. Manufacturer tag - hicookie kp nickhshih sofos etc, and pro-supported like me Xtreme addict 8pack teamau etc, anyone that gets sample now and then or very often, and the last is 100% non-sponsored and non ES (which i find hard to believe). we have all these people in the same league, XOC, but they all have different tags / colors. FYI, this is what a league combining Pro and XOC would look like. Interesting titbit: if you combine Zzolio's hardware points and Vivi's global points, you'd score slightly above 2400 points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strat Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 (edited) Why da hell am I in Elite? Lol I can't even afford Ln2 atm Edit : this ranking seems not bad Edited June 11, 2014 by StrategosSan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GENiEBEN Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 Why da hell am I in Elite? Lol I can't even afford Ln2 atm And thus it begins. Don't worry, by the current Elite rules even I will fit the league.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjjc Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 Definitely like that ranking, I think it's pretty reflective of how it should be Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Splave Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 sweet havent benched hard in months still in top 20 cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massman Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 Why da hell am I in Elite? Lol I can't even afford Ln2 atm Edit : this ranking seems not bad It's just based on the current Pro / XOC list. Since we have no clear definition of when someone's pro/elite or just xoc, I think the easiest will be to consider anyone who competes in the Pro OC Cup "Elite". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wizerty Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 5 : Wizerty 6 : AndreYang Best spot ever hahahaaa ---------------------------------- like that ranking too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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