Frequency detection bug with old Socket 5 CPUs

[Gumanoid]

6 hours ago, Antinomy said:

@Gumanoid, looks like you don't get the situation. The results were blocked not because everyone is a cheater but because we can't be sure they are real.

replied to personal messages

[yosarianilives]

If we're talking about pulling the benches, we can pull all points from both aqua and 3dmark03 because they have wide open security holes? Especially 3dmark03 as you can literally decide what your score will be with very little effort, anywhere from 1-1000% improvement if you want. I wonder if it's because of the large amount of points for the two bench. I hope mods are not worried about the outrage of pulling pts from insecure benches. Aqua I can understand not pulling as the cheat is small enough percentage that some "tweaks" may outweigh it. However, 3dm03 is completely insecure and should be pulled immiedately.

Edited September 7, 2018 by yosarianilives

[GRIFF]

Чтобы в дальнейшем не было таких проблем надо создавать обсуждения проблематичных ситуаций ДО УДАЛЕНИЯ. Обсудили бы в спокойной атмосфере и решили что делать. А так как было сделано просто вызвало волну гнева...

 

English: In order to avoid such problems in the future, it is necessary to create discussions of problematic situations before DELETE. We would have discussed it in a calm atmosphere and decided what to do. And since it was done just caused a wave of anger ...

[GRIFF]

9 minutes ago, yosarianilives said:

However, 3dm03 is completely insecure and should be pulled immiedately.

Example from database please.

[Leeghoofd]

guys no russian... pulling all these posts

[max1024]

Just now, Leeghoofd said:

guys no russian... pulling all these posts

Do no delete posts above, next post i'll write in english. So you see that language barrier exist and influence on whole situation, which i wrote upper about.

[Leeghoofd]

HWBOT is an international website, thus with an english forum. Hence everybody can follow it,

Edited September 7, 2018 by Leeghoofd

[GeorgeStorm]

7 minutes ago, Leeghoofd said:

HWBOT is an international website, thus with an english forum. Hence everybody can follow it, don't start about the language barrier, that's absolute nonsense....

I think the language barrier can mean things come across much harsher than intended type thing.

[Antinomy]

18 minutes ago, Leeghoofd said:

don't start about the language barrier, that's absolute nonsense....

Just my $.02 - language barrier can be a bitch for some of the members. Sometimes it makes things easier to explain and understand. It's up to forum mods to clean it up though.

If any of our exUSSR guys want to clear things out in Russian, feel free to PM me or create a topic on Russian forums. I'm not about ranting but can give you the technical details you think this thread is lack of.

[Leeghoofd]

1 hour ago, GeorgeStorm said:

I think the language barrier can mean things come across much harsher than intended type thing.

I know that but if some start in Russian, the Italians do their thing, why not throw some Arabic in the mix,  who can read or flollow up on the forum postrs.

 

The options are English or English...  nothing more, nothing less...

[yosarianilives]

My comment to Griff on insecure benches was in English, why did it too get censored? Every time I call for removal of points on two very insecure benches on this forum it gets censored every time, whether or not I share how to actually do it. It's not like people don't know the cheat already, it's unbelievably simple to do. The fact that aquamark and 3dmark03 still have points is an absolute joke and makes a mockery of the "integrity" of the database.

[GRIFF]

16 hours ago, Leeghoofd said:

the Italians do their thing

))))))

PS: russian is one of my native language.

Edited September 8, 2018 by GRIFF

[Guest]

10 hours ago, yosarianilives said:

My comment to Griff on insecure benches was in English, why did it too get censored? Every time I call for removal of points on two very insecure benches on this forum it gets censored every time, whether or not I share how to actually do it. It's not like people don't know the cheat already, it's unbelievably simple to do. The fact that aquamark and 3dmark03 still have points is an absolute joke and makes a mockery of the "integrity" of the database.

Dude you've been playing the same harpon for a year or more.

Remove points on benches that 99% of the members do the right thing? That's thousands of submissions punishing the honest/ trustworthy members removed

... as Antinomy suggests, it's about preserving the database. Toss out the cheated sub when found.

_________

Showing how to cheat in posts/ threads ... your just teaching more newcomers how to cheat. Glad it's censored / removed ? like the silly monitor pulls

[ozzie]

16 hours ago, GRIFF said:

Чтобы в дальнейшем не было таких проблем надо создавать обсуждения проблематичных ситуаций ДО УДАЛЕНИЯ. Обсудили бы в спокойной атмосфере и решили что делать. А так как было сделано просто вызвало волну гнева...

 

English: In order to avoid such problems in the future, it is necessary to create discussions of problematic situations before DELETE. We would have discussed it in a calm atmosphere and decided what to do. And since it was done just caused a wave of anger ...

i got the exact same translation with my translator ae mate translator i use griffy

In order to avoid such problems in the future, it is necessary to create discussions of problematic situations before DELETE. We would have discussed it in a calm atmosphere and decided what to do. And since it was done just caused a wave of anger.

 

[StingerYar]

For excluding language barrier - RU version of this message included.

Just some of my personal thoughts. The main reason for indignation in major - disregard for the fact of submitting the result. It's not cool at all, while result, even if it done in one minute, or one click, gets simply deleted from the database (I keep quiet for those, where days and finances are spent to polish the result for the competition).

If HWBOT really want changes - develop an additional rating. The main one remains competitive, a rating that reflects the steepness of the result against the others, with the condition of relevance of the result, following all the rules. The second is a kind of contribution pts, which is calculated simply for the fact of submitting result, or for filling all the fields of hardware & rig photo (helps to increase informativeness of results, and would mostly exclude submissions where just the processor field gets info, while others are empty, or GPU+CPU, others are empty). All hardware fields populated - get 2 points in addition, added a photo - 1 more pts, indicated all vendors - +1. You will make life easier for beginners (even if they do not compete in rankings, their effort is not wasted), and you can avoid situations like the current one.

If in some benchmark there is a fact of possible cheating that cannot be verified for certain, or maybe a bug in the platform discovered - just disable the competitive rating for the benchmark as such, or the group of results on the questionable platform, but do not delete the results physically. Think of tags for results like "Llano is wrong with frequencies", "Old version of CPU-Z on Socket5", "SystemInfo is not included", "AMD Phenom processor is not recommended for Win10 due to inaccurate result (HPET)", those are excluded from competitive ranking, but not from general statistics, have their weight, and also give the user a contribution reward. If user want to compete – he’ll know the reason of why result can’t be included to competitive ranking. Add filters like "all results” / "accurate results" in searching as well.

Moderators did, let's say, not correctly deleting all messages in Russian. Once the resource is international - put them in a sub-forum for CIS (Russian lang), don’t act, like you don’t care about large part of your audience, please. Or say / list it directly - ENG or get faqin lost.

Constantly I see messages in the style of "don’t like it - don’t use it, it's the only place for competitive overclocking", so HWBOT subtly hints it needs an alternative / competitor? Recall how Intel was acting before the release of AMD Ryzen, doing almost nothing and showing their +5% productivity like a Mars colonization achievement.
Team Cup will be the last competition, where I personally shall take part, since start of 2018 I get mostly negative from HWBOT, nuff said...

Quote

Мои личные мысли - главная причина возмущения большинства – наплевательское отношение к факту подачи резульата. Совсем не весело, когда твой результат, пусть даже сделанный за одну минуту, или один клик просто удаляют с ресурса (молчу за те, где тратится несколько дней и финансы ради полировки результата на соревнование).

Если уж так хочется перемен – введите дополнительный рейтинг. Основной – соревновательный, рейтинг, который отражает крутость результата на фоне остальных, с условием релевантности результата, следования всем правилам. Второй – что-то вроде contribution pts, который начисляется просто за факт подачи результата или скажем за заполнение всех полей железа и фото (а не так как любят многие, указать просто процессор, и забить на все остальное). Запостил результат и заполнил часть полей – получи 2 очка, добавил фото – еще 1 очко, указал всех вендоров – еще 1 очко. Вы так жизнь облегчите новичкам, и сможете избегать ситуаций, вроде текущей.

Если в каком-то бенчмарке вскрывается факт возможного читерства, который нельзя верифицировать наверняка, или быть может вскрывается баг в платформе - просто отключите соревновательный рейтинг для бенчмарка как такового, или группы результатов на сомнительной платформе, но не удаляйте результаты физически. Придумайте ярлыки для результатов типа «Llano ошибается с частотами», «Старая версия CPU-Z на Socket5», «SystemInfo не включен», «Процессор AMD Phenom не рекомендуется бенчить под Win10 из-за неточности результата (HPET)», таковые исключены из соревновательного рейтинга, однако попадают во всеобщую статистику, имеют свой вес, а также дают пользователю очки contribution. И добавить в фильтрах результатов рубильники «все результаты», а также «точные результаты».

 

Модераторы поступили, скажем так, не правильно удалив всю переписку на русском языке. Раз ресурс интернациональный – поместите их в суб-форум для СНГ (русский), не ложите хер болт на немалую часть своей аудитории, пожалуйста. Или скажите/укажите в правилах прямым текстом – Анлийский, или ПНХ!

Постоянно вижу сообщения, в стиле «не нравится – не пользуйся, мы тут одни в мире, кто делает соревновательный оверклокинг», так может HWBOT альтернативу/конкурента сделать? Вспомним что было с Intel до выхода Ryzen, тоже с жиру бесился и вые..ывался за свои 5% так, как будто Марс колонизировал…

Team Cup будет последним соревнованием, где лично я приму участие, если вектор развития ресурса останется тем же. С наступлением 2018 года получаю по большей степени только негатив от HWBOT…

 

[Guest]

20 minutes ago, StingerYar said:

Constantly I see messages in the style of "don’t like it - don’t use it, it's the only place for competitive overclocking"

*snip*

Team Cup will be the last competition, where I personally shall take part, since start of 2018 I get mostly negative from HWBOT, nuff said...

 

That's an individual's way of steering an unpleasant conversation to an end. To weaken others resolve.

You have defeated yourself. Why? Because you will choose only certain comp to do.

_________

Where do I get negative from? Talking about cheating, thinking others are cheating because they have a better score.

Double edged sword. That member talks up your submission to you " bravo good speed there " but secretly is SALTY reporting sub to moderator "

Dirty tactics, underhanded because their score was beat.

_________

Hwbot was always about being competitive & putting up your best scores. A way to test your overclocking prowess against one another.

Keep it real, do your best ... 

 

[yosarianilives]

7 hours ago, avalanche said:

as Antinomy suggests, it's about preserving the database. Toss out the cheated sub when found.

My point is that there is absolutely no way to tell a cheated sub from a non cheated sub if the person doing the cheat has any idea what they're doing. It's quite easy for someone to do like they did with cinebench and remove only part of the workload so that their score doesn't boost too much. Except we don't even have a finished render to show that they cheated. There is zero way to detect this cheat if done correctly. Absolutely zero.

[Guest]

A means to an end ... therefore kill all benches of points because of a few loophole wizards. It's not the way because you believe it so. 

 

[ZFeSS]

I don't like situations like this, cause someone will be disappointed in the end no matter what decision was made. All of this submissions may be not wrong, but they may be not right also. You can choose your side but nothing more. I trust this guys and appreciate their effort. What we will say if someone "new" ask about those submissions? What will we do if someone will post a result with bugged cpu-z version? Should we trust him? Should we ban him? That's why I suppose that decision should be made right now. It would be better if we discuss it before removal because other fellow members feel better this way. Decision was made and I can understand it even if I don't like it.

Anyway bug existed, fixed and we can move on. I think it's good news.

 

23 hours ago, Leeghoofd said:

guys no russian... pulling all these posts

Looks like I missed something interesting

Edited September 8, 2018 by ZFeSS

[alexmaj467]

The Google translator.

Let's find a program that accurately shows the bus and the multiplier for these systems, and add to the rules only for this socket that this program should be in the screenshot. And take the frequency of the final program is not CPU-Z and from another program. And from that time on, future results will only be checked for this socket.

[ozzie]

a suggestion, theres many different countries and native languages in bot teams and  members, some are better with english than others, if they want to type in a different language why cant they do this, type their post, then translate it in english for eg like i just did with aemate translator, keeps everyone happy or am i missing the point.

why the hell cant i get 6 gig from my cpu on air ......(yeah right, lol)

Transliteration

pochemu, chert voz'mi, ya ne mogu poluchit' 6 gigov ot moyego protsessora v efire

[Leeghoofd]

Google translate or other free toold aren't perfect... that they debate internally and let one post in english...

Edited September 9, 2018 by Leeghoofd

[Antinomy]

@yosarianilives, please stop offtoping this thread with other benchmark discussions and whatever. This thread is about CPU-Z freq. bug only. Or I'll have to ask mods to clean it.
 

On 9/5/2018 at 1:24 AM, Strunkenbold said:

One minor disadvantage is that we have now no longer FSB detection on these old chips. If you want to submit Motherboard frequency results, you have to use at least a K6-2 from now on.

 

On 9/9/2018 at 2:28 AM, alexmaj467 said:

Let's find a program that accurately shows the bus and the multiplier for these systems, and add to the rules only for this socket that this program should be in the screenshot.

O.K. for those who didn't read the f**king datasheets (кому было лень учить матчасть):

There's no way to detect 100% sure multiplier on these CPUs so there never was an accurate FSB detection. First I was confused when I was it added in new CPU-Z because these CPUs don't have FS (frequency select) registers that represent corresponding FS pins that are set. Franck tried to guess the multi based on standard clocks (read - default FSB and clock speeds). That's were it got wrong. I wasn't aware that CPU-Z could show wrong clocks because I used the older versions so they don't show stupid multipliers. CPU-Z tries to guess a combination of standard multi&FSB from a table and then simply multiplies them. So it doesn't take CPU frequency that can be measured via TSC counter and then guess multi and FSB but the other way around - it tries to guess FSB and multi and multiplies then to show the speed. Exactly the same way you see incorrect CPU speed on your POST screen during overclocking (they are taken from a standard FSB*multi table too on most boards).
So there's no way for software to detect multiplier and hence bus speed on these CPUs (Winchip C6, Pentium/MMX, AMD K5). There are some complicated mechanism to guess the multiplier right but it will require time and effort to check how reliable it is not to mention efforts to implement it.

 

In fact, lack of multiplier detection is not a big issue. Since you all are here, I'd like to propose another verification issue - requirement of CPU fotos for S5/7/8/A/370(Cyrix), Slot 1/A. Any arguments against it?

Edited September 10, 2018 by Antinomy

[Mr.Scott]

7 minutes ago, Antinomy said:

In fact, lack of multiplier detection is not a big issue. Since you all are here, I'd like to propose another verification issue - requirement of CPU fotos for S5/7/8/A/370(Cyrix), Slot 1/A. Any arguments against it?

None from me.

[Mr.Scott]

For the cartridge processors, pic of the case or the actual processor?