Is overclocking DEAD or dying?

[Bilko]

4 minutes ago, 5erveD said:

Just enjoy the hobby and bench! Tell about it to people who are interested. But don't overdue. If they want it they will go for it eventually.

 

This is how I've always approached it, I'll help those that are interested and want to learn but you can't force people to bench for months on end, I've seen plenty of people get really excited and go all out for like 3-4 weeks then lose interest, it's not for everyone but for those that want to learn there will always be people around that want to help

 

[ShrimpBrime]

Benching is like a career. It takes a certain person to be a police man. A certain kind of person to be a surgeon. 

and...

It takes a special kind of person to get into competitive benching. 

 

Since kids are born with mobile computing, PCs are just not popular any more. Console gaming is bigger than PC ever was. Mobile computing is bigger than PC overclocking ever was.

The hay days are gone fellas. Overclocking is still here, but no longer needed. Performance gains for average users is gone. Run cpu stock, get max performance. With tweaking gain some.... but not like the old days with 50-100% possible overclocking on an air cooler.

Benchmarks are getting more and more complicated. We are going to wrap even the legacy benchmarks? What for? Make it more difficult or automate hwbot?

Ah well, I'll bench until the benchmate is implemented and then my benching days will probably go down hill with the rest of it. 

 

I'm in for the ride HWBot!! Just leave me an open cup holder and an "oh shit handle" and let's keep on benching. 

[_mat_]

On 12/8/2019 at 7:47 PM, ShrimpBrime said:

Benchmarks are getting more and more complicated. We are going to wrap even the legacy benchmarks? What for? Make it more difficult or automate hwbot?

Ah well, I'll bench until the benchmate is implemented and then my benching days will probably go down hill with the rest of it. 

It's not mandatory. If you don't like BenchMate or the workflow, just use Windows XP or 7. In any case, you need to follow the rules of HWBOT to participate. The real problem lies in the more and more complicated rulebook, that's necessary to keep the playing field fair and square. That's what BenchMate is here for. It makes your life as a bencher easier, lets you focus on the hardware and cooling (the fun part) and deploys the same ruleset to anybody who is participating independent on the OS used. This might sound easy, but it's actually VERY hard to do. But you don't need to care about that, just use it (or not and deal with the rules yourself like OS choice, enabling HPET, ...).

As for wrapping legacy benchmarks, they are profiting the most from it. BenchMate fixes multiple bugs and inconveniences as well as ensure that they can be run on the latest versions of Windows. That's something an actively developed benchmark doesn't need, if it gets enough attention from the developer. In a way you can see the BenchMate integration of legacy benchmarks as a form of active development to keep them up-to-date. Any wishes or suggestions?

Edited December 10, 2019 by _mat_

[ShrimpBrime]

Of course I use W7. (or earlier).

I have a much better understanding of benchmate and it's implementations now. Thank you for the explanation.

I am wondering about Aquamark for example. Is the old wrapper going to be removed or doubled up by benchmate? Assuming I am running W10 and AMD for example?

[_mat_]

10 hours ago, ShrimpBrime said:

I am wondering about Aquamark for example. Is the old wrapper going to be removed or doubled up by benchmate? Assuming I am running W10 and AMD for example?

Aquamark support is currently not planned, although very much possible, so not off the table or something. But I will try to focus on the most popular benchmarks first.

In general old wrappers are replaced by BenchMate's integration. This is a whole new level of wrapping because I'm not just launching a benchmark process, but I'm actually in it and replace several Windows functionality with fixed, more robust and secure alternatives. For example all timer calls a benchmark uses are either emulated securely by the driver or at least tracked and its measurements compared to several other timestamps. That's something the Aquamark wrapper can't do, it is more like a result submitter with some system setting checks.

[ShrimpBrime]

20 hours ago, _mat_ said:

Aquamark support is currently not planned, although very much possible, so not off the table or something. But I will try to focus on the most popular benchmarks first.

In general old wrappers are replaced by BenchMate's integration. This is a whole new level of wrapping because I'm not just launching a benchmark process, but I'm actually in it and replace several Windows functionality with fixed, more robust and secure alternatives. For example all timer calls a benchmark uses are either emulated securely by the driver or at least tracked and its measurements compared to several other timestamps. That's something the Aquamark wrapper can't do, it is more like a result submitter with some system setting checks.

That's pretty sweet. I'd like to see the old Aquamark wrapper removed. Didn't like it then, don't like it now, especially when my driver crashes mid bench!! lol.

So on that note, being a wrapper as it is, when a benchmark fails, how will the wrapper handle it? Will it automatically close itself if errors are found such as a driver crash ect?  

 

[_mat_]

13 hours ago, ShrimpBrime said:

So on that note, being a wrapper as it is, when a benchmark fails, how will the wrapper handle it? Will it automatically close itself if errors are found such as a driver crash ect?  

BenchMate monitors the benchmark process and it has very strict rules on what data needs to be available and valid to show a score as successfully verified.

If the benchmark process is unstable, it will most definitely crash. BenchMate recognizes that and will not let you save any result (from a process that is not even there anymore).

If the benchmark doesn't crash but shows weird behaviour, there is a good chance this will show up somewhere in BenchMate's result dialog. Like for example a benchmark run that is cut short, but the benchmark itself doesn't realize that and still shows a result (very rare, but has happened in CB R15 for example). Due to the fact that we now have so much more data for this run than any screenshot could possibly show, the moderators can make a better decision if this was valid or not. A run cut short for example will show a very different runtime and less timer calls for the whole run. This is data we never had before and we can use it for good.

Edited December 10, 2019 by _mat_

[ShrimpBrime]

OK thank you Mat sir!!! Your answers really help me to understand how Benchmate works, and I think it will be a good thing. Keep up the good work!

 

[Dry_Ice777]

1. Forums are dying. Some young people don't even know what it is. If we want to attract more people - we need to connect new platforms, which now some overclockers do. For example - youtube, twitch, instagram, twitter, facebook. Unfortunately, the administration of this site does not need it

2. Very little relevant information. The biggest and most valuable thing I've found is r/overclocking/ - very strong movement on Reddit. More videos, streams, answers to questions, thematic videos. If it's all at least in some video was added to the main of our favorite site-already something. 

3. And all the same I consider that it is necessary more competitions on old and available hardware. Plus, if we have different OC leagues-why not make competitions for different leagues, so that people with only air cooling could participate. And of course-prizes, at least some prizes. Small money, miscellaneous hardware, cooling - anything. Let's organize some thread Fund, where everyone indifferent will be able to throw money, or some hardware. And then these prizes will be distributed among the winners.

 

I love overclocking very much, but it's a shame to me how the main site of the world is ruining itself

[GeorgeStorm]

Prizes tended to cause more trouble than they were worth I think.

Getting new users just due to prizes isn't great, as xtu has shown more users aren't always better, far better to have 1 active new her than 10 users taking part in a comp just for a prize than nothing in my opinion.

 

There were no comps/prizes when I got involved, not sure why suddenly they're needed now. Damn kids.

[TerraRaptor]

Back in 2012-2013 we were holding an oc competition @benchmark.kz (and agreed that team members won't get prizes and may take part only for reference only - all prizes go to newbies; not great prizes but still worth 100-150$ for first place). Guess what - nobody joined our team, just got their prizes and left. 

Overclocking as I understand it is about passion. 

[ozzie]

visitor stats are nothing, anyone can look, visit then just go, its visitors that look then join up to be a "member" and stay a member is what counts, if we got .1% of the 250,000 extra visitors this year we'd have and extra 250 members join up , now that would be great i think wouldnt it

Edited December 17, 2019 by ozzie

[_mat_]

2 hours ago, richba5tard said:

I know visitor stats do not say everything, but they are certainly not depressing for HWBOT. We went from 1.0 to 1.2 million unique visitors in 2019 compared to 2018. +20% is healthy.

Is that 1.2 million uniques per year  measured with Google Analytics as users? Or webstats from the server?

[ShrimpBrime]

6 hours ago, richba5tard said:

Users according to Google Analytics. @ozzie just like any other site where content is created by the user, the amount of content producing users vs lurking members is maybe 1 to 100.

Perhaps the hwbot forum should create content of it's own to attract readers. New content at least daily. Heck ANY type of electronics content would bring readers to this forum.

Stagnant it remains without HWBot being actually active. 

Reviews write ups, comparisons, testing, modding pictures, videos, eye candies....

Most popular thread..... "Is overclocking dead or dying." That's no good at all. I don't wanna read threads like this in the worlds overclocking database forums to be frank.

Yea, that's right. Just hit that little like button down there.

Edited December 20, 2019 by ShrimpBrime

[ozzie]

9 hours ago, richba5tard said:

Users according to Google Analytics. @ozzie just like any other site where content is created by the user, the amount of content producing users vs lurking members is maybe 1 to 100.

like i said , stats are nothing, ezsecially google stats, the majority prob uses chrome anyway, what shrimp ^^^^^^^^ said above is correct, people need to be made to think, well this looks like a fun, interesting site, im going to join up here and ask a few questions, this overclocking hobby sounds like a whole lot of fun to get into, from there theres a good chance  they choose a team and its forum to join, presto...new member for bot and team

[ADVenturePO]

Ha! So here are ya OCers discussing what the heck went wrong with League participants, aye?
Oh well, I tell ya.
Three ways there are to start overclokin' mates:
1. Need of computing power 
2. Curiosity (what can one achieve with his new build)
3. People want to show off with their new build or want to compare it with others. 

99.9% of them will do it on some kind of ambient cooling at the beginning.

Well the first one doesn't even need to participate although may want to compare against others.
Results:  if there was someone with extreme cooling who took his model of CPU to bench it - > "you're a dumbass. He has 100 + points. You have 2.1 or 1 point. Go away silly bastard!"

The second one will have the same slap on that happy face. Curiosity fulfilled  

Third one? Oh. He will add his 3-5 results and... maybe he'll not delete account in shame. Maybe.

Why is it like that? Some of You jumped at me when I asked Is there a fun being Enthusiast OCer still.

Now think about it. I made on ambient 4.425GHz with 3970x. There are no better scores for this CPU with ambient cooling. And... I got nothing. No points almost at all.
Now go for any decent web portal to check this CPU review - 4.15 -4.25 - max for them. 4.3 at one I think there was - booted but unstable.

So for destroying almost anything about this CPU on ambient, Enthusiast, Rookie and Novice Overclocker will get zero points almost or as one may say - points of shame.  

Now. I will try to do best scores with 3950x...  What say ya? Will there be a point for me? Or for anyone who will be best in ambient cooling with it? 
Who will totally overcome portals reviews? 

No. 

There will be no points. 

You were talking about prizes. Nobody cares too much. People want their results to matter. Not being slapped in the face by : you are not a real overcloka! You can shove this build of your in tha ass. 

At the beginnig of this year I wanted to finish with HWBOT. But I stayed because it is comfortable for me to compare my achievements of regulating hardware with others. |
And as this is mostly only one portal like it, I will stay. But you know what? 

With 3950x  I will not sit like 3 days to get the best possible scores. Why? Because now I know - we, Enthusiast will get almost same amount of points for whole set of this CPU benchmarks - 10-15 max. 20 pts for a guy with best binned chip.  

That's how you're killing passion in people by destroying points for Enthusiasts. 

Oh. yes! There is this 0.01 % who will start with Extreme OCing and maybe half gets nice results and stays.
So there are two guys  like this per year. Awesome. 

Told ya. Verification enhancement. Cooling types divided: EXtreme (LN2, LHe etc), Sub Zero :Dice, SS, Phase , Ambient : Air, LC  - or similar. 
Points from Extreme, especially sponsored subs cant make a gap for Enthusiasts. That's crazy. 





    
 

[TerraRaptor]

35 minutes ago, ADVenturePO said:

That's how you're killing passion in people by destroying points for Enthusiasts. 

Man, here are your points with aircooled 3970x in wprime 1024m (https://hwbot.org/submission/4309630_adventurepo_wprime___1024m_ryzen_threadripper_3970x_19sec_496ms): Globals 2.5pts, GTPP 16.7 pts.

Here are my points with single stage cooled Celeron 1.8 Northwood  in GB3 MC (https://hwbot.org/submission/3931910_terraraptor_geekbench3___multi_core_celeron_1.8ghz_(northwood)_1107_points): Globals 1.0 pts, HTPP: 5.3 pts.

 

So, I beleive that is how hwbot is killing my motivation to bench subzero - a person with air cooling gets more points than me with SS.

Many people told you - review your approach. Points are everywhere but require proper hardware. Sometimes it is the question of hardware selection rather than cooling. Lots of enthusiasts have 4-5 times global points compared to me (owning 2 single stage units, several ln2 pots, vga and memory pot, two dewars). If points is what matters, you better invest 2000$ (3000$?) into X79+overclockable Xeon + 3-4 cards for 3-4 way CRossfire/SLI rather than 3970x - easy 300-400 globals.

Again, you have 5 times global points I have while I'm #82 career in XOC league. Still not happy with points distribution?)

[Guest]

9 hours ago, ADVenturePO said:

With 3950x  I will not sit like 3 days to get the best possible scores. Why? Because now I know - we, Enthusiast will get almost same amount of points for whole set of this CPU benchmarks - 10-15 max. 20 pts for a guy with best binned chip.  

That's how you're killing passion in people by destroying points for Enthusiasts.
 

This was discussed a lot before the new HWbot revision came out. Game is stay close to #1 score. If you are a long way off little points. 

Called the HWbotty points cliff.

 

3970x TRX40 done LN2 on release.

3960x TRX40 has not been done LN2 .... that's why you enjoy 300 global points from 4x scores

3950X likely done ln2 so small points there too. That's how it is for Enthusiast scores  Big points up league sir single stage Apprentice

[Guest]

9 hours ago, TerraRaptor said:

Man, here are your points with aircooled 3970x in wprime 1024m (https://hwbot.org/submission/4309630_adventurepo_wprime___1024m_ryzen_threadripper_3970x_19sec_496ms): Globals 2.5pts, GTPP 16.7 pts.

Here are my points with single stage cooled Celeron 1.8 Northwood  in GB3 MC (https://hwbot.org/submission/3931910_terraraptor_geekbench3___multi_core_celeron_1.8ghz_(northwood)_1107_points? Globals 1.0 pts, HTPP: 5.3 pts.

 

So, I beleive that is how hwbot is killing my motivation to bench subzero - a person with air cooling gets more points than me with SS.

Many people told you - review your approach. Points are everywhere but require proper hardware. Sometimes it is the question of hardware selection rather than cooling. Lots of enthusiasts have 4-5 times global points compared to me (owning 2 single stage units, several ln2 pots, vga and memory pot, two dewars). If points is what matters, you better invest 2000$ (3000$?) into X79+overclockable Xeon + 3-4 cards for 3-4 way CRossfire/SLI rather than 3970x - easy 300-400 globals.

Again, you have 5 times global points I have while I'm #82 career in XOC league. Still not happy with points distribution?)

It is a choice of hardware selection. Pay to win is really big points. Average points expected enthusiast scores 15.

x4 2080ti made 140 global gpupi.

titan V made 46 gloabal iirc

Rare server cpu's 22core make 90 global.

That is why Adventure PO has over 1100 points in global. They are massive points. I do not get what he is complaining about 

So much advantage there. I find seriously hard work/ time put in to this hobby. It's grind for a few more points all the time    

[Mythical tech]

32 minutes ago, avalanche said:

It is a choice of hardware selection. Pay to win is really big points. Average points expected enthusiast scores 15.

x4 2080ti made 140 global gpupi.

titan V made 46 gloabal iirc

Rare server cpu's 22core make 90 global.

That is why Adventure PO has over 1100 points in global. They are massive points. I do not get what he is complaining about 

So much advantage there. I find seriously hard work/ time put in to this hobby. It's grind for a few more points all the time    

Just one 2080ti is more than my benching budget for the entire year, while I am not upset that he is using opportunity he has to bench expensive hardware because it is what I would do as well, it is slightly annoying that he is bitching about people who are sponsored when he practically sponsored himself by his clients. 

[Leeghoofd]

Honestly how frustrated and sour can some people get. Constant name calling, bashing and flaming derails any thread. Turning something constructive into a very destructive thing that just leads to more anger and boiling blood.

If you tell us that you are not into it for the points than plz act that way then and don't constantly make a fool of yourself by contradicting yourself in each thread you post in.

 

I have told this before some really need to look into the mirror and perform a self analysis of what they are, have become and want to achieve in this hobby and their life.

 

For your info, the site and forums are being monitored, our current acting is not gonna help these people to maybe invest in our community. If you want it to pop,  I kindly suggest you to just leave via the exit door and get another hobby instead of being a keyboard warrior. If this bashing stays the bad apples will be removed so the rest can just do what they love to do.

 

Thread closed (again), final warning, the banhammer is being readied

Edited December 27, 2019 by Leeghoofd