HWBot Cheapaz Chips 2020 Design Thread

[jab383]

I wouldn't mind the 1030 again.  Didn't mod it properly the first time, so I'd like to try the stuff I learned last year.  Of course, doing that with another card would work as well.

[macsbeach98]

On 1/23/2020 at 9:02 AM, zeropluszero said:

I'm not going to claim that I know everything about cheapaschips competitions but clearly I do.

step1 - hardware that is AVAILABLE GLOBALLY - useless for this kind of comp if people in europe cant buy what we in australia can, etc.
step2 - its gotta be dirt cheap. we're talking less than $50 for a cpu or video card, we want people killing them and going out to buy more. This is why we kept using HD5450 and GT610s. G3258 was another good one. 

step3 - Hardmods & efficiency. when I ran these competitions locally, they were about teaching, learning, sharing 2 specific things that are important to benching effectively - that is OPERATING SYSTEM EFFICIENCY and VIDEO CARD MODDING. I wanted people who had never picked up a soldering iron to go out, buy a cheap iron and learn what it is to put some resistors on a card, and see what it gets you. 
I wanted people to run superpi on windows7 and wonder WHY was that person running XP absolutely smashing their scores, and then WANTING to go out and learn how they do it better. 

step4 - I dont think these things can be done with modern benchmarks, they're just not tweakable enough. Cinebench, X265, GPUPI - look, they're great benchmarks and I do actually like them, but you cant see the massive difference in them when you enable LargeSystemCache or run order for legacy benchmarks and I really think it needs to be legacy.

 

I always relate this back to one of my first locally run competitions - 32M Superpi, and 3dmark01. It was sandy bridge era, and I had a 56X multi CPU, and my other competition was uncle fester with a 53X CPU, and I was running both benchmarks in win7, and he was using XP and he absolutely destroyed my scores with 300mhz less clock. 
I was initially mad, I accused him of cheating, but what it did make me do, was WANT to know how he out did me. And so I started doing some research and learned how to make efficient OS, and how to tweak the system for better scores, learning about how memory oc was so important.

This should be at the heart and soul of Cheapaschips - Getting in newbies to have some fun, get toweled up a bit, but then learning and teaching how the scores are made afterwards. 

 

 

Lastly, for tiebreaker, it has to be 3dmark03 lowest possible score. Its just the best. 

Well said Matt

I have competed there and here in these comps and this is what Cheapaschips is and should be a cheap video card where people can learn to mod and tune and it doesnt really matter weather you destroy the card modding it or pushing it too hard.

Dont make it into something completely different

[mickulty]

Constructive suggestions y/n....?

[Bilko]

On 1/23/2020 at 8:12 AM, Bilko said:

I like the idea of the 3000G, It's a cheap unlocked part with an iGPU so you can have both 2D and 3D stages for it, it'll also run on a cheap B350 board.
Also removes the possibility of using a higher end CPU to gain a couple extra points overall with a low end dGPU.
SuperPI (32M of course), X265 4k, 3DMark06 and Sky Diver/GPUPI 1B would be my votes.

For a tiebreaker stage Mem freq would be fun to see or 3DMark11 Physics is something else that could work.

Just to add a little more clarification to this

Step 1: 3000G is available on every continent so far as I'm aware
Step 2: It's got a $50 USD MSRP so I think it's covered under the "cheap" part of Cheapaz Chips
Step 3: Hardmods, not so much but there's plenty of efficiency to work out
Step 4: 32M, 3DMark11 Physics and 06 are definitely tweakable as is x265 to an extent

If people have some other suggestions for hardware/benches then by all means throw them up, that's what the thread is for guys

[bigblock990]

I haven't competed in cheapass compos yet, so take my opinion with a grain of salt.....

I pretty much agree with @zeropluszero it should be a cheap vga and gpu bound benches. The point of this comp should be getting people to learn how to hard mod, and how to tweak for best efficiency

Sure ryzen 3000G sounds cheap at $50 price point. However its only cheap if you already have a compatible mobo and ram. If you need to purchase a $100-150 mobo and a $200 kit of bdie to run it then its no longer cheap.

Also the argument that 3000G is a good choice because it will attract new people that have modern hardware doesn't make sense to me. Assuming that this target audience would be current gamers, I highly doubt these people are going to remove the 3600x (or whatever) from their gaming rig to run some benches on a 3000G.

Meanwhile a cheap vga with gpu bound benches could be easily ran on almost any platform. AMD or Intel, including several older gens without much/any performance hit. This would appeal to a much broader amount of people IMO.

[Bilko]

All excellent points mate but it just adds to the problem with this thread, there's plenty of "Here's why you shouldn't do that" posts and very very few actual hardware/bench suggestions.

I was just suggesting something a little bit outside the norm but obviously it's not to peoples liking ?

[cbjaust]

if 3000G gets off the ground, do you reckon the 200GE be allowed too?

[mickulty]

A great way to find out if a CPU+iGPU based competition works well to attract people would be to stop whining and run one, since none of the complainers have any better suggestions.

I'd love to try and address concerns, but this doesn't seem like raising legitimate concerns, just not liking an idea because it's different - even though as @zeropluszero said the G3258 was a good one and this is actually cheaper by launch MSRP with cheaper motherboards having OC options.

The people reeling off parts lists for top-end boards and memory are being disingenuous by picking out the hardware that would be needed to put out the best possible scores and win.  If you look at what would be needed to *win* a competition on a cheap GPU, you also have to include an LN2 pot, dewar, LN2 and quite possibly multiple cards to bin.

Saying that a target audience of people with a 3600X definitely wouldn't swap out CPU to go ham on a 3000G is disingenuous when in the next breath there's an implication that these people definitely would be happy to swap out GPU in order to put a card with wires hanging off it in their precious gaming rig.

Maybe people need a reality check.  Here's the kind of interest a competition post on r/overclocking can generate: https://www.reddit.com/r/overclocking/comments/63v4or/calling_all_roverclocking_hwbot_team_members_asus/

Here's the interest it generates when the competition is based on hardmodding: https://www.reddit.com/r/overclocking/comments/bchxuz/cheapaz_chips_season_3_is_live_great_chance_to/

To add weight to this, I've also taken the time to poll the 'Actually Hardcore Overclocking' patreon community.  Here's the message:

And here are the results after the first 30 minutes:

[Guest Digg_de]

Something with a Celeron (?) cause they are cheap. ?

[bigblock990]

2 hours ago, mickulty said:

A great way to find out if a CPU+iGPU based competition works well to attract people would be to stop whining and run one, since none of the complainers have any better suggestions.

I'd love to try and address concerns, but this doesn't seem like raising legitimate concerns, just not liking an idea because it's different - even though as @zeropluszero said the G3258 was a good one and this is actually cheaper by launch MSRP with cheaper motherboards having OC options.

The people reeling off parts lists for top-end boards and memory are being disingenuous by picking out the hardware that would be needed to put out the best possible scores and win.  If you look at what would be needed to *win* a competition on a cheap GPU, you also have to include an LN2 pot, dewar, LN2 and quite possibly multiple cards to bin.

Saying that a target audience of people with a 3600X definitely wouldn't swap out CPU to go ham on a 3000G is disingenuous when in the next breath there's an implication that these people definitely would be happy to swap out GPU in order to put a card with wires hanging off it in their precious gaming rig.

 

 

I simply stated my opinion, just because you disagree doesn't mean I'm being disingenuous.

Someone isn't going win the 3000G compo on water with a single cpu. Both compos will require binning and ln2 gear to win. It doesn't matter what hardware you choose, ln2 and binning will always happen. The difference is that a cheap vga WON'T require a top end mobo and cpu to be competitive whereas a 3000G WILL.

And to address the hardware swap point, my opinion is that no one will "cannibalize" their gaming rig irregardless of cpu or vga compo. So for me it comes down to the broadest audience of people with bench rigs. Cheap vga can be competitive on numerous platforms, and 3000G won't be.

Also I have nothing against doing a 3000G competition, and if there is one I might even join the fun. Just call it something other than cheapass chips  

Edited January 27, 2020 by bigblock990

[yosarianilives]

4 hours ago, Bilko said:

All excellent points mate but it just adds to the problem with this thread, there's plenty of "Here's why you shouldn't do that" posts and very very few actual hardware/bench suggestions.

Can't speak for others but I know when I said "let's not do something that doesn't require mods" I did give a valid suggest of doing some dx9 benches and specifying only mobo igp. There really aren't any good mobos with igp that I can think of off the top of my head so they all need mods, it's gpu limited, and it would be old benches that are tweak heavy. Also almost all of  the relevant mobos are $20-30 and available probably more universally than even new hardware.

Now assuming that isn't to people's liking I would recomend RX 550 which is about the closest to a budget gpu you're gonna get new atm. It would be similar to gt 1030 from a few years ago where it's sub $100. 

Now if we're okay doing another older gpu I would suggest doing GT 430 or even better GF108 core which would be GT430, some GT440, GT 530, some GT 630 and would allow more option so hopefully it'd have about as universal access as the Cedar Core last year.

[Bilko]

16 minutes ago, yosarianilives said:

Now if we're okay doing another older gpu I would suggest doing GT 430 or even better GF108 core which would be GT430, some GT440, GT 530, some GT 630 and would allow more option so hopefully it'd have about as universal access as the Cedar Core last year.

The entire point of this thread is for people to suggest hardware that could be viable for a comp

Seems to have taken a detour somewhere though....

[cbjaust]

If we're talking just about sub $100 what about RX 570? Appropriate benchmarks would be more accesible to the masses.

[Leeghoofd]

We will do one AMD IGP and one with discrete graphics at the same time.

• If AMD IGP round has more participants Zeropluszero, Bilko and Yousarianlives pay me and Mickulty a beer.
• If Discrete round has more participants Zeropluszero, Bigblock and Splave pay me and Mickulty a beer

Edited January 27, 2020 by Leeghoofd

[yosarianilives]

12 minutes ago, Leeghoofd said:

We will do one AMD IGP and one with discrete graphics at the same time.

• If AMD round has more participants Zeropluszero, Bilko and Yousarianlives pay me and Mickulty a beer.
• If Intel round has more participants Zeropluszero, Bigblock and Splave pay me and Mickulty a beer

You want $10 for beer or me to try to figure out how to send some local craft beer? Tbh you deserve a beer after all you're hard work whichever comp were to be more popular lol

Also are you each wanting your own beer or can I send one to share  

Edited January 27, 2020 by yosarianilives

[Leeghoofd]

Timing for this compo, start and end time ?

[mickulty]

There is a much better reason to go back to discrete GPU that any of the ones posted so far (I really don't buy into the "I don't like it being called cheapaz" argument).

It occured to me while reflecting on @yosarianilives's comment that we're actually struggling a bit for a good discrete GPU option.  The RX 550 is not cheap at all, though yos isn't wrong about it being one of the cheapest new options.  Even the 1030 wasn't that cheap, nor would a 1030 DDR4 be.

There is a good reason for this.  The market seems to be moving away from cheap discrete GPUs, because integrated graphics are very good these days.  It's also worth noting thhat modern cheap GPUs are moving away from SO type packages for controllers that are easy to work with, towards QFN packages that are a right pain in the proverbial and not the best introduction.

Thinking about these factors, I have to doubt whether a proper cheapaz chips competition with new hardware will be possible in future years.

This year, it is possible.  The AMD Caicos core, as seen in the R3 230 and HD 6450, is still widely available (including areas with a less good used market, eg new cards are available on amazon.in) - though it's no longer supported by the latest drivers, and presumably EOL so even that is going away sooner rather than later.  We'll have Oland in the future but that might not need hardmods for voltage control anyway.

I still think that a 3000G comp is a good idea but realising that cheapaz-type GPU competitions may die in the near future, I think we should make the most of the options we have now - even if it wouldn't be the most optimal way to get new people involved.

How a Caicos comp could look:

Limitations:

• Use only HD 6450 (GDDR3, 64bit), HD 6450 (GDDR3, 32bit), HD 7450, HD 8450, R5 230, R5 235, R5 235X (this intentionally excludes GDDR5 models which would be harder to find)

Stages:

• Stage 1 (legacy, tweakable): 3Dmark2001SE?  Aquamark?
• Stage 2 (modern, straightforward): 3DMark Sky Diver?  Fire Strike?
• Stage 3 (middling age): 3DMark Vantage?  Unigine heaven?
• Stage 4 (weird): 3DMark Ice Storm Extreme?  Catzilla 720p?
• Stage 5 (tiebreak): Fire Strike Ultra

Sadly GPUPI doesn't run on Caicos, as it doesn't support double precision, otherwise I'd suggest that for a stage.

Timing-wise if it's 5 stages as outlined here, 2 months would make sense: Feburary 1 to March 31.  It could be cut down to 3 stages (maybe aqua/01, vantage/heaven, catzilla) and just run over Feburary I suppose.

Possible other limitations to make sure I'm not too popular with anyone:

• Background change 2 weeks before the end
• Banning LN2, Cascade and LHe, as dry ice is more widely available without so much entry cost and to make chilled water more competitive.  This would mean mandating system pictures, and requiring that if dry ice is used the dry ice is visible in system pictures.

If a 3000G competition could run alongside this I'd be very happy, alternatively 3000G (and 775 Pentium 4) could become team cup stages.  I think having to change the name just because 3000G doesn't focus on hardmodding is silly, but it's probably less effort to come up with a new name than to keep arguing with people who care too much about it.  However if those people want it to have a different name so much, I leave it to them to suggest a good one.

[yosarianilives]

16 minutes ago, mickulty said:

 

Timing-wise if it's 5 stages as outlined here, 2 months would make sense: Feburary 1 to March 31.  It could be cut down to 3 stages (maybe aqua/01, vantage/heaven, catzilla) and just run over Feburary I suppose.

Imho it's February is too close to start a comp. I think stages should be listed a full month before comp start when possible so that people don't bitch about stages not running on cards, etc, after comp starts. I think 3 stages and run through March would be ideal.

[bigblock990]

I suggest GTX 950. Looks like avg used price $40-60 in US. How is availability for the rest of the world??

Benches: gpupi 1b, heaven xtreme, 3dmark firestrike extreme gpu score lod allowed. Open to suggestions for additional stages if people want more than three.

I think Feb 1st start a bit too soon? Maybe Feb 15th run for 30-60 days depending on how many stages.

[Leeghoofd]

2 minutes ago, bigblock990 said:

I think Feb 1st start a bit too soon? Maybe Feb 15th run for 30-60 days depending on how many stages.

How about March 1st till mid of May

[bigblock990]

12 minutes ago, Leeghoofd said:

How about March 1st till mid of May

Sounds great

[Leeghoofd]

K Date set, it should allow peeps to buy the required gear and mod it (if needed)

Just get the choice of GPU sorted lads

[Splave]

53 minutes ago, bigblock990 said:

I suggest GTX 950. Looks like avg used price $40-60 in US. How is availability for the rest of the world??

Benches: gpupi 1b, heaven xtreme, 3dmark firestrike extreme gpu score lod allowed. Open to suggestions for additional stages if people want more than three.

I think Feb 1st start a bit too soon? Maybe Feb 15th run for 30-60 days depending on how many stages.

damn this sounds great, Id be in

[1whiteshark1]

1 hour ago, bigblock990 said:

I suggest GTX 950. Looks like avg used price $40-60 in US. How is availability for the rest of the world??

Benches: gpupi 1b, heaven xtreme, 3dmark firestrike extreme gpu score lod allowed. Open to suggestions for additional stages if people want more than three.

I think Feb 1st start a bit too soon? Maybe Feb 15th run for 30-60 days depending on how many stages.

Best one so far for sure ?

[mickulty]

2 hours ago, bigblock990 said:

I suggest GTX 950. Looks like avg used price $40-60 in US. How is availability for the rest of the world??

Not sure what used market you're looking at but in the UK "buy it now" listings for the GTX 950 start at nearly £80, Caicos core cards can be had for £10.  950s also seem to typically have the QFN package controllers that aren't suitable for someone's first time modding.  As far as global availability, looking on amazon.in there's one model of GTX 950 available for a single third-party seller for the equivalent of $320 US.  I honestly think the 950 falls down on every one of the critera @zeropluszero set out.

On the plus side: it can run Dx12 benches and GPUPI.  Oh and I guess it's easier to mount a tek9 to it.

Don't know why you're casting around for other hardware options when Caicos is right there to be honest.