HWBOT 2020 Make it great again Thread:

[Splave]

I like that 89% of problems of hwbot are cause by people gaming the system etc. We humans are so predictable ??

[Mr.Scott]

1 hour ago, Splave said:

I like that 89% of problems of hwbot are cause by people gaming the system etc. We humans are so predictable ??

And tenacious.

[der8auer]

Hey there

I hope everyone is doing good so far and you had a decent start into 2021. 

As you've probably seen there is some movement right now with our coder understanding more and more how things work on the bot. Albrecht is in good contact with him and I'm sure we're getting there. Right now our priority is still to fix stuff which is not working and work on the most important updates. There are few things I want to address quickly:

Benchmark Updates:
Albrecht created a power point for us to see what kind of changes the community wants to see  regarding benchmarks. Personally I'm totally open and we can just follow whatever the community wants to see. You guys eventually have to play on the field so you can also give feedback on it.

 

Finances:
Financially we currently have costs of about 4000€ per month which we have to cover somehow. I'm not trying to earn any money of this project and just want to keep it alive and improve things if possible. About 900-1000 € per month is the hosting cost right now to pay domains and keep the servers running. The rest is to pay the coder and the taxes/health insures and all this stuff we have to pay for him. I'm trying to be as transparent as possible. Besides that there are no additional costs we have to cover at this point. 

There are multiple ways we can cover the ~4000€. At a certain point we will try to form partnerships again with e.g. G.Skill, ASUS, Intel or whoever wants to join. Right now as long as the site is not 100% fixed we will just try to get some parts back by hosting competitions but also due to corona it's very difficult to see how things evolve with Computex and so on. As I mentioned in my initial Post from earlier 2020 I'm going to set up a Patreon page for HWBot within this week and hope that some can help us keeping this project alive. Thinking about how much we all spend on hardware and LN2 per month I hope we can find some guys to donate monthly in a range of like 10-25€. I hope we can cover some good part of our cost this way and stay independent. Nothing of this will be mandatory and you will not get benefits for donating. Well you can have fun on here which is a cool thing I guess

 

Annual Ranking - Overclocker League 2021/2022/2023...:
Albrecht told me there is a good interesting in keeping an annual ranking which is also fine to me. Eike and me will change the way this ranking works to make it more interactive, easier to understand for newcomers. More details on this once we have tested our idea.

 

Tweaking/Cheating:
This is probably the only part where we're taking a decision some of you might hate but this is also a major part for constant trouble in our community. As long as I've been part of OC this always lead to drama, confusion and anger. The general issue is that we have to decide which part is considered a cheat and which part is considered a tweak. Objectively speaking both things are pretty much the same. 

In an ideal world all overclockers would tweak their hardware and press start on benchmarks instead of finding every loophole to somehow receive a higher score even though the hardware is still performing on the same level. We all know this is never going to happen because overclockers are overclockers. If there is a grey zone or a loophole it will always be used (I did the same in the past)

Right now we have such complex rules and have to use tools such as benchmate because we all made our own lifes harder and harder every single year. Instead of adding a new rule every few weeks to limit the damage we will take a different approach:

Only tweaks which are known to moderators will be allowed. If there is a new tweak which has not been discussed with moderators and it is used it will automatically be considered cheating followed by a temporary or permanent ban. Everything which measurably changes the performance will be considered a tweak. It doesn't matter if it's 0.5% or 20%. 

What you have to keep in mind is that we want to make this hobby more appealing to new people and if you need to know 300 tweaks for each benchmark in order to be competitive it won't improve things! 

 

I will keep you updated on the Patreon page and ofc whenever the new rule will be activated.

Thanks!

Roman

[Guest endpunkt]

Patreon page for HWBot.  ? fantastisk

[ShrimpBrime]

7 hours ago, der8auer said:

 

Tweaking/Cheating:

Only tweaks which are known to moderators will be allowed. 

Hi Roman! Thank you for the update. 

1st, will donate when possible. Maybe not often, maybe not much, but want to help!

 

2ndly. The small quote above.

To be sure people are fully aware, ALL tweaks the moderators know about needs to be listed in the rules in each benchmark including tutorials and pictures if needed.

 

Because this will make a fair playing field.

Then the mods and benchers can know the same thing. It would be helpful to everyone.

It's not just that they are tweaks, some of these tweaks are secrets of the trade.

HWBot needs to be forth coming and honest. If you guys know the tweaks, list them with detail and tutorials so everyone can have the same chance.

That is based on the thoughts of just hit run and win. 

My 2 cents on the matter. 

[Mr.Scott]

3 minutes ago, ShrimpBrime said:

ALL tweaks the moderators know about needs to be listed in the rules in each benchmark including tutorials and pictures if needed.

HWBot needs to be forth coming and honest. If you guys know the tweaks, list them with detail and tutorials so everyone can have the same chance.

 

Hahahahahahaha.............

Dare to dream.

Sorry Jon.

[ShrimpBrime]

4 minutes ago, Mr.Scott said:

Hahahahahahaha.............

Dare to dream.

Sorry Jon.

What??!! 

They want to make it fair, that's how it needs to be done. 

Show me yours, I show you mine.

[unityofsaints]

There is a world record out there since 2018 that is either cheated or tweaked into oblivion - before we aim for such lofty goals as informing mods of every tweak we should aim to at least have an understanding of how all the world records came about. 

I also think that CPU-Z should be engaged to make XOC mode a true XOC mode again; for validations it's now impossible to beat old scores because validation in current versions of CPU-Z puts so much stress on the CPU.

Edited January 5, 2021 by unityofsaints
spelling

[ShrimpBrime]

Just now, unityofsaints said:

There is a world record out there since 2018 that is either cheated or tweaked into oblivion - before we aim for such loft goals as informing mods of every tweak we should aim to at least have an understanding of how all the world records came about. 

I also think that CPU-Z should be engaged to make XOC mode a true XOC mode again; for validations it's now impossible to beat old scores because validation in current versions of CPU-Z puts so much stress on the CPU.

I want to know what the mods know.

Cause how the F am I supposed to know which tweak is legal or not? 

WR cheated? I figured those where heavily moderated and some had a cheek turned for w/e reason. That's not the cheater's fault.

[Leeghoofd]

Tweaks are only shared, as mentioned on Discord, if the one that discovered it does so himself. A tweak will be explained to the mod but he has no obligation to share. Its like a doctor that doesn't start to blabber about the medical state of his patients. There won't be any explenation from our side about existing tweaks or whatsoever.

How did Roman list it? You discover something, you inform the moderator and we will give green light or not. It can't be any easier than that too understand.

Anyways an even playing field will never happen, that's pure Utopia. For your info Christian Ney has mentioned a lot of tweaks already in the old rules, question is do you know how to correctly apply them?

Most legit tweaks are about proper tweaking, no new software crap into old OSses. Ticking affinity, setting realtime, testing resolution, minimizing, changing font size or theme, OCing the Monitor Hz, initial caching runs on one CPU core, using diagnostic mode and there are so many many more...

Try beating some of the greeks Top OCers 2D scores from 2007-2009. It will be a high learning curve, some will make it, some will not even come close.

Die hard legacy hardware is about Bios modding and is another level and not for the fainted hearted. I prefer to stay away from socket A and sortlikes ?

What use is it to mention you are allowed to perform a Wazza for SuperPi, do I also need to mention the benchmarks where that same memory tweak also works? Some users can't manage a proper Wazaa via OCX SPi tweaker. Some haven't even heard about a Large System cache or moving the page file to another partition....

The sharing  is the workload of your Team, hold internal competitions like Low clock challenges and you will see that there's a lot of things that you can do to boost your score. Remember that highly efficient score are usually the result of years of experience and hours of (pre)testing.

[ShrimpBrime]

That was sloppy.

For points, I'm not explaining tweaks to any moderators here after being asked for donations. My donations should give me a free pass to bench however the heck I want too.... lol. 

edit: That was more of a joke in case you missed the lol at the end. 

 

 

Edited January 6, 2021 by ShrimpBrime

[GeorgeStorm]

9 hours ago, unityofsaints said:

There is a world record out there since 2018 that is either cheated or tweaked into oblivion - before we aim for such lofty goals as informing mods of every tweak we should aim to at least have an understanding of how all the world records came about. 

I also think that CPU-Z should be engaged to make XOC mode a true XOC mode again; for validations it's now impossible to beat old scores because validation in current versions of CPU-Z puts so much stress on the CPU.

Depending which WR you're meaning, Leeg was informed of whatever tweak(s) were used to get it, unless you're on the side of tweaks should be made public in which case there are some other WRs that I think would have the same issue

[keeph8n]

14 hours ago, ShrimpBrime said:

2ndly. The small quote above.

To be sure people are fully aware, ALL tweaks the moderators know about needs to be listed in the rules in each benchmark including tutorials and pictures if needed.

Because this will make a fair playing field.

Then the mods and benchers can know the same thing. It would be helpful to everyone.

It's not just that they are tweaks, some of these tweaks are secrets of the trade.

HWBot needs to be forth coming and honest. If you guys know the tweaks, list them with detail and tutorials so everyone can have the same chance.

That is based on the thoughts of just hit run and win. 

My 2 cents on the matter. 

Absolutely NOT! If you want a list of tweaks and its sorted as the following, I would be okay with that.

 

TeamAU Tweak

Rauf Tweak

Need Correct Version of Bench for Correct Version of OS and Platform

 

 

I don't think people need to be spoonfed shit. They didn't earn that. Do some research, test some shit out, and if you find something that goes fast contact a moderator.

[ShrimpBrime]

1 hour ago, keeph8n said:

Absolutely NOT! If you want a list of tweaks and its sorted as the following, I would be okay with that.

 

TeamAU Tweak

Rauf Tweak

Need Correct Version of Bench for Correct Version of OS and Platform

 

 

I don't think people need to be spoonfed shit. They didn't earn that. Do some research, test some shit out, and if you find something that goes fast contact a moderator.

I'm on the correct team for any tweaks, bios mods and anything in between.

Your comment is focused at the new guys not me unfortunately.

I dont need to "earn" anything. I've been participating at the bot since beta rev 1.

[keeph8n]

28 minutes ago, ShrimpBrime said:

I'm on the correct team for any tweaks, bios mods and anything in between.

Your comment is focused at the new guys not me unfortunately.

I dont need to "earn" anything. I've been participating at the bot since beta rev 1.

I didn't say anything was directed towards you. I don't think there needs to be any public list of tweaks. Its unnecessary. If you find something, inform the moderation team and thats that.

[ShrimpBrime]

39 minutes ago, keeph8n said:

I didn't say anything was directed towards you. I don't think there needs to be any public list of tweaks. Its unnecessary. If you find something, inform the moderation team and thats 

That wont happen. You know that. The new guys probably dont even know to look.

Find buried threads for tips and tricks? 

Look on forums that dont exist because half of them closed from lack of OC interest?

You guys are reaching here.

[keeph8n]

Just now, ShrimpBrime said:

That wont happen. You know that. The new guys probably dont even know to look.

Find buried threads for tips and tricks? 

Look on forums that dont exist because half of them closed from lack of OC interest?

You guys are reaching here.

Nobody is reaching. You want to know something, get involved in a community. Talk to other benchers. Put in effort. Most benchers are happy to give tips and tricks if they see someone putting in effort vs just handing them everything on a silver platter

[ShrimpBrime]

25 minutes ago, keeph8n said:

Nobody is reaching. You want to know something, get involved in a community. Talk to other benchers. Put in effort. Most benchers are happy to give tips and tricks if they see someone putting in effort vs just handing them everything on a silver platter

No, you must have missed my point.

To make an even playing field, the rules need to state what's ok to use and what's not.

It's not about handing things over. 

What was it now? Hit run and win?

[keeph8n]

8 minutes ago, ShrimpBrime said:

No, you must have missed my point.

To make an even playing field, the rules need to state what's ok to use and what's not.

It's not about handing things over. 

What was it now? Hit run and win?

It'll never be hit run and win, and it shouldn't be.

[ShrimpBrime]

53 minutes ago, keeph8n said:

It'll never be hit run and win, and it shouldn't be.

AGREED!! 

But the tweaks thing. Is the cheating so big an issue "suddenly" where we would need to actually address this in the fashion that we are? Should have done that 10 years ago when this was popular. Better late then never?? 

Where you here 10 years ago? What differences from then till now can you see where we can make these improvements?

 

 

[Guest endpunkt]

disagree not be handed over tips of trade. f1 driver tell you how he does lap records

[Leeghoofd]

Ow Does he tells you the entire setup of the car ? Suspension, camber, wing settings, gears,... don't think so....

[keeph8n]

24 minutes ago, endpunkt said:

disagree not be handed over tips of trade. f1 driver tell you how he does lap records

I assume that conversation goes like this.

 

Spectator: How do you set so many lap records

F1 Driver: Fast Car, Good Team, and Skill

 

Most F1 drivers don't know the setups of the cars. They just know what to tell their team the car needs to go faster. The car feels heavy under acceleration in left turns but not right. That would give the mechanics the required information to properly adjust the suspension.

 

Overclocks are the driver and the team at the same time.

[ShrimpBrime]

The secrets die with our generation and mother fuck the rest of the members. 

Gotcha noted.

Dont expect people to come and tell a mod they found a tweak. That's as laughable as listing the tweaks for each bench.

Stalemated. 

Edited January 7, 2021 by GeorgeStorm

[unityofsaints]

13 hours ago, GeorgeStorm said:

Depending which WR you're meaning, Leeg was informed of whatever tweak(s) were used to get it, unless you're on the side of tweaks should be made public in which case there are some other WRs that I think would have the same issue

Yes but I also doubt the validity of those tweaks was tested and at the time Leeg admited that he doesn't really know enough about legacy 3D to moderate it. I am not on the side of all tweaks being made public at all but ever since FM1 GPUpi and wPrime DLL tweak I am a bit weary of this whole tweak validation process.

Woops, not the most glamorous post 2,000 Hopefully 3,000 can be a more positive one!

Edited January 6, 2021 by unityofsaints