HWBOT Rev.4 - The Plan.

[Massman]

I see a few decent replies in this thread (most of them consist of "baaaaad" or "you sux" - I don't bother to read those), mostly concerning the teams league. The best way to think of this change is that instead of all team members having to buy one sample of the popular hardware, this concept actually invites people to bench a variety of hardware. So, instead of all going for the 8800GTX, it's inviting people to go for the entire GF8 series: from low-end to high-end.

 

That the LN2 guys might benefit from this is actually a valid point. We have considered creating the air/water team league as well, but that was quite a bit more complicated. Maybe when we do the actual coding, we'll see it's okay-doable, but not sure. The thing is ... it's already a huge advantage to run LN2; but on the other hand, in the really competitive rankings, it's often not that difficult to grab a bunch of points with just air/water cooled components.

[GrGaKC]

It's quite obvious as the way things are currently that a team with maybe 10-15 active benchers has no chance against teams with 50 active benchers. Geez this team has top ranks, this one doesn't which team shall i join? It's quite obvious not many will go to a losing team.

 

I'd just like to say that this is totally CRAP, and if this is the reason for changing the rules, you're WAAAY off course. It's enough just to look at my team (although I really contribute almost nothing due to being unemployed) and see that a team with 13 members manages to scare bigger teams into joining up with MORE teams just to keep ahead of us. So, even if I have almost no money to spend, I try and OC anything I get in my computer and try to get at least SOME points for my team. If this new rule applies, then THAT's a message for us small folks to stop competing since we don't get any team points for our submissions. And if that happens, I might as well stop even trying and delete my profile.

[40_Degrees]

Think so, too.

Doubt that this is the right way.

+1

It's pure nonsense.

[OptyTrooper]

I see a few decent replies in this thread (most of them consist of "baaaaad" or "you sux" - I don't bother to read those), mostly concerning the teams league. The best way to think of this change is that instead of all team members having to buy one sample of the popular hardware, this concept actually invites people to bench a variety of hardware. So, instead of all going for the 8800GTX, it's inviting people to go for the entire GF8 series: from low-end to high-end.

 

That the LN2 guys might benefit from this is actually a valid point. We have considered creating the air/water team league as well, but that was quite a bit more complicated. Maybe when we do the actual coding, we'll see it's okay-doable, but not sure. The thing is ... it's already a huge advantage to run LN2; but on the other hand, in the really competitive rankings, it's often not that difficult to grab a bunch of points with just air/water cooled components.

Love how you skirted the fact that this change ONLY "benefits" the big spenders/sponsored overclockers/teams. Gigabyte has deep pockets don't they Massman?

[chew*]

Selling parts at a discount to fellow team members is also a perk that comes from being on a team. Would love to be on the team that sells HW for $1. But every forum I have been on... XS/OCA/OCF/OCN,TR,[H] there are posts that say XXXX off for team members (whether they be Hwbot team members, Folding/Crunching team members or whatever...) It is usually on the order of $10 or %10 sometimes higher, but rarely. Check any classifieds on any forum, new stuff around the corner? Old stuff gets listed up for sale. It is how one feeds the adiction that is OCing/benching.

 

It also rings a death knell for larger teams like Xtremesystems. As well as smaller Overclockers like myself. There is a limited number of different CPUs/GPUs out there... and certain ones are best for certain tests. If anyone on my team has purchased HW and submitted it and I do not know I can beat them... (and how will I know if I have not run that HW before) there is no point in buying it for benching as I will not receive any points for it).

 

Be the best or don't play at all!!!

 

I can see nascar going real far only giving points to the guy that finishes first.

 

 

What is the change good for? More teams!!!

 

Now large teams can split up into sister sites... and retain there boints for HW purchased, and manufacturers get to sit at the top of the bot on ES stuff.

 

rev4 = good for manufacturers, Bad for guys that wait till something is last gen and cheaper.

 

LMAO that is too funny!

 

So your all for removing A: skill, and B: luck from overclocking by buying known good hardware possibly modded.

 

Whats the fun in that?

 

Not sure if you have even looked lately........XS is about 30 actual guys benching and about 300 that joined way back when the team had heavy hitters because the team was tops........some are no longer around and or never got the memo that the heavy hitters left

 

Maybe some of you don't see this the way I do but I think it can make the competition between teams far more interesting and much closer.......

 

Teams with 20 guys can now be competitive with teams of 300.........teams with very little funds wise can now compete with teams with more money than they know what to do with.

 

Now when you bench a Card or CPU you really truly are benching for your team.

 

When a team can not afford to buy a retarded amount of multiple cards and or multiple CPU's the way it currently is they have no chance.....why bother competing if you know you won't get ahead. If any thing this makes it cheaper for teams as a whole to compete, I fail to see how that helps manufacturers.........when teams as a whole don't need to buy say 20 GTX 480's just to stay in top ranks

Edited September 18, 2010 by chew*

[websmile]

I see a few decent replies in this thread (most of them consist of "baaaaad" or "you sux" - I don't bother to read those), mostly concerning the teams league. The best way to think of this change is that instead of all team members having to buy one sample of the popular hardware, this concept actually invites people to bench a variety of hardware. So, instead of all going for the 8800GTX, it's inviting people to go for the entire GF8 series: from low-end to high-end.

 

That the LN2 guys might benefit from this is actually a valid point. We have considered creating the air/water team league as well, but that was quite a bit more complicated. Maybe when we do the actual coding, we'll see it's okay-doable, but not sure. The thing is ... it's already a huge advantage to run LN2; but on the other hand, in the really competitive rankings, it's often not that difficult to grab a bunch of points with just air/water cooled components.

 

You might look at my profile and you will see a large variety of different cards- not high end cards;)- I´ve lost over 70% of my boints because of rev 3 and Multi-GPU being devalued, but Iin spite of thinking of quitting I started a new campaign- now you tell me that 95% of my scores, as well as 95% of the score of about 80-90% of your HWBot members are worthless and don´t contribute to the teams success- do you really think this is a step forward??- I simply can´t believe you are for away from reality:(

[OptyTrooper]

WOW. I t looks like the plan for rev 4.0 is a huge success already. Very well received I must say. so many positive responses already guys that I'm sure you'll push ahead with it. You would do well to remember this is a community or used to be.

[romdominance]

1 Refrain from derogatory personal comments.

 

2 Hardware sharing is not nearly as big a problem as some would like you to believe. The life expectancy of most of these components under extreme voltage and cold is hours at best. Most of the extreme guys will tell you they have killed multiple chips/cards. Everybody wants you to buy more product at retail, not at a wholesale rate from your friends and teammates.

 

3 Separating manufacturer/pro/novice makes perfect sense. Separating the best submission from the rest of the team's work is ludicrous.

 

4 Competition points? Only from sanctioned comps by manufacturers who support hwbot, right?

 

5 The more you try to "level" the playing field under the guise of "fairness", the more we see its only about increasing the suffering population and income of this site. This is supposed to be about improving the quality of overclocks, no?

 

All of these changes will ultimately work against your goals of improving hwbot. Once you have alienated the best and hardest working overclockers and their teams, you will have no one left to regulate. History has shown socialism does not work.

[Christian Ney]

I see a few decent replies in this thread (most of them consist of "baaaaad" or "you sux" - I don't bother to read those), mostly concerning the teams league. The best way to think of this change is that instead of all team members having to buy one sample of the popular hardware, this concept actually invites people to bench a variety of hardware. So, instead of all going for the 8800GTX, it's inviting people to go for the entire GF8 series: from low-end to high-end.

 

That the LN2 guys might benefit from this is actually a valid point. We have considered creating the air/water team league as well, but that was quite a bit more complicated. Maybe when we do the actual coding, we'll see it's okay-doable, but not sure. The thing is ... it's already a huge advantage to run LN2; but on the other hand, in the really competitive rankings, it's often not that difficult to grab a bunch of points with just air/water cooled components.

 

Totally agree (want aircooled league maybe i can be first)

[Massman]

Love how you skirted the fact that this change ONLY "benefits" the big spenders/sponsored overclockers/teams. Gigabyte has deep pockets don't they Massman?

 

You should see my bank account status .

 

I don't think it benefits the big spenders for the simple reason that most of the current high-boint scores are with the most high-end hardware of each generation (i guess i7 920 is an exception, although it's still high-end for Nehalem platform). This concept actually leaves a lot less to gain from buying the expensive VGAs are more to gain from going to low(er)-end stuff like GF8500/GF8600 (instead of GF8800s).

[OptyTrooper]

1 Refrain from derogatory personal comments.

 

2 Hardware sharing is not nearly as big a problem as some would like you to believe. The life expectancy of most of these components under extreme voltage and cold is hours at best. Most of the extreme guys will tell you they have killed multiple chips/cards. Everybody wants you to buy more product at retail, not at a wholesale rate from your friends and teammates.

 

3 Separating manufacturer/pro/novice makes perfect sense. Separating the best submission from the rest of the team's work is ludicrous.

 

4 Competition points? Only from sanctioned comps by manufacturers who support hwbot, right?

 

5 The more you try to "level" the playing field under the guise of "fairness", the more we see its only about increasing the suffering population and income of this site. This is supposed to be about improving the quality of overclocks, no?

 

All of these changes will ultimately work against your goals of improving hwbot. Once you have alienated the best and hardest working overclockers and their teams, you will have no one left to regulate. History has shown socialism does not work.

 

Said better than I ever could. Let's hope it is taken to heart. All I see coming of this is the swift demise of HWBOT as a legitimate arena for competition in overclocking.

[TheKarmakazi]

I see a few decent replies in this thread (most of them consist of "baaaaad" or "you sux" - I don't bother to read those), mostly concerning the teams league. The best way to think of this change is that instead of all team members having to buy one sample of the popular hardware, this concept actually invites people to bench a variety of hardware. So, instead of all going for the 8800GTX, it's inviting people to go for the entire GF8 series: from low-end to high-end.

 

That the LN2 guys might benefit from this is actually a valid point. We have considered creating the air/water team league as well, but that was quite a bit more complicated. Maybe when we do the actual coding, we'll see it's okay-doable, but not sure. The thing is ... it's already a huge advantage to run LN2; but on the other hand, in the really competitive rankings, it's often not that difficult to grab a bunch of points with just air/water cooled components.

 

So your going to ignore peoples opinions because they didnt express themselves in a way you prefer? I am officially removing my support for hwbot from this point on. I realize my $10 per year isnt alot but, I cant support this site if the direction your taking it in is like this (and since I wrote "sucks" in my last post I guess you will just ignore it anyways).

 

I think we should have a vote just like previous times changes to the bot were proposed. Take the will of your community into your decision. If rev4 is implemented, as it stands now, I will be removing myself from the league/hwbot and just OC'ing. The proposed changes to the league give huge unfair advantages to teams who live near each other and screw over the international/spread out teams.

[der8auer]

I see a few decent replies in this thread (most of them consist of "baaaaad" or "you sux" - I don't bother to read those), mostly concerning the teams league. The best way to think of this change is that instead of all team members having to buy one sample of the popular hardware, this concept actually invites people to bench a variety of hardware. So, instead of all going for the 8800GTX, it's inviting people to go for the entire GF8 series: from low-end to high-end.

 

That the LN2 guys might benefit from this is actually a valid point. We have considered creating the air/water team league as well, but that was quite a bit more complicated. Maybe when we do the actual coding, we'll see it's okay-doable, but not sure. The thing is ... it's already a huge advantage to run LN2; but on the other hand, in the really competitive rankings, it's often not that difficult to grab a bunch of points with just air/water cooled components.

 

Come on Massman The way you answer just looks to me like "HWBOT Rev.4 - The Plan" is more like "HBOT Rev.4 - FINAL, non discussable"... This is really disappointing to me.

 

What about a big vote where the community has the choice of the different aspects of rev4? Like:

- I like a split of the cooling Methods

- I don't like a split of the cooling Methods

- I like that only the best submission counts to Team-Total

- I don't like that only the best submission counts to Team-Total

.

.

.

Would be great.

[Bobnova]

Split cooling methods is cool, though dubiously enforcable.

 

The team only getting one score for a given piece of hardware sucks. It's going to make it a lot harder to recruit newbies to teams.

Right now we can tell them, honestly, that every .1 they submit helps us. With the new setup it doesn't, odds are they will never benefit the team. The four hours i spent last night would be totally useless from a team perspective because i'm not the fastest 920 on the team.

Yes, i enjoyed doing it. Yes it helped my personal total. But one of the things i really like about benching is the TEAM aspect, we're all benching for a common cause.

With the new rules our newest gung-ho member's 30odd hours of benching would be useless for the team. It'd be a lot harder to get excited about his results if they're pointless (literally).

 

I propose that the rule be applied only to GPUs an not CPUs. There are far more GPUs in existence then CPUs, and sharing a gtx480 that can hit 1400 is going to make a larger dent then sharing a 980x that can hit 6.7 IMO, 2d has a lot more tweaking (3d01 excluded) in addition to the raw clocks.

[Mr.Scott]

1 Refrain from derogatory personal comments.

 

2 Hardware sharing is not nearly as big a problem as some would like you to believe. The life expectancy of most of these components under extreme voltage and cold is hours at best. Most of the extreme guys will tell you they have killed multiple chips/cards. Everybody wants you to buy more product at retail, not at a wholesale rate from your friends and teammates.

 

3 Separating manufacturer/pro/novice makes perfect sense. Separating the best submission from the rest of the team's work is ludicrous.

 

4 Competition points? Only from sanctioned comps by manufacturers who support hwbot, right?

 

5 The more you try to "level" the playing field under the guise of "fairness", the more we see its only about increasing the suffering population and income of this site. This is supposed to be about improving the quality of overclocks, no?

 

All of these changes will ultimately work against your goals of improving hwbot. Once you have alienated the best and hardest working overclockers and their teams, you will have no one left to regulate. History has shown socialism does not work.

There is nothing left to say after this. It's perfect.

[Massman]

So your going to ignore peoples opinions because they didnt express themselves in a way you prefer?

 

Yes. I'm ignoring the opinions of people that need to change to using bad language when expressing their opinion. People who have to say something really worth reading will have no problem expressing themselves without using those bad words ... even if the grammar is broken.

 

If you have been here long enough, you'll notice that I can take quite an amount of shit. I don't even fall over the usage of a couple of bad words (eg: "i think it sucks" is no problem), but an entire message only containing bad words and non-sensical jibber-jabber is just not helping anyone. I obviously don't mean you personally here, but in general.

 

HWBOT has never ignored well-formed feedback. I never do either. As long as you refrain from comments like "you so dumb" and "you must get paid a lot of money", you're good.

[Bobnova]

I'd love to know whether we'll get HWBot points from Asus or other non-sponsor competitions.

I like the idea of getting points from them, if it's all major competitions, and not just ones thrown by sponsors.

I would hate to see HWBot commercialized to the point where if you don't use a sponsor's board you're out of luck.

[Mr.Scott]

I'd love to know whether we'll get HWBot points from Asus or other non-sponsor competitions.

I like the idea of getting points from them, if it's all major competitions, and not just ones thrown by sponsors.

I would hate to see HWBot commercialized to the point where if you don't use a sponsor's board you're out of luck.

That will be rev. 5.

[Massman]

I'd love to know whether we'll get HWBot points from Asus or other non-sponsor competitions.

I like the idea of getting points from them, if it's all major competitions, and not just ones thrown by sponsors.

I would hate to see HWBot commercialized to the point where if you don't use a sponsor's board you're out of luck.

 

Obviously this is a tricky point. Three things:

 

1) Online competitions will not have a huge effect on the ranking. live competitions (eg: moa/gooc) will have a slightly bigger effect, but obviously not so big that winning the worldwide final will give you a certain top-5 spot.

 

2) We've suggest a three-stage online competition concept for the next year for supporting manufacturers, that (hopefully) will improve the online competitions a lot more.

 

- stage 1: marketing overclocking -> some guys (UFL) get pre-binned cards to show off the overclocking capabilities of X hardware (no prizes)

- stage 2: extreme overclocking -> low-cost hardware will be needed to win a high-end product (eg: GTS450 for GTX480+XPower/UD9)

- stage 3: ambient overclocking -> random hardware for mainstream product

 

The idea is that people who will compete for the big(ger) prize in stage 2 will have to mod the crap out of a low-cost product to gain a component that was shown off in stage 1. This instead of the current "you need high-end to win high-end" concepts.

 

3) We obviously need an incentive for MFCs to support the development of HWBOT. I know you all think we're making shitloads of money here, but in fact it's as simple as just making break even at the end of each month. And that's without having a dedicated software coder to deal with all the bugs and feature requests. If we want to keep HWBOT running in the future and make sure features are added regularly, we need MFCs (like MSI, GIGABYTE and ADATA do now) to actually start to support us financially ... as we never want the community to pay for this site. If you can make other companies out there (which whom we've had contact already) to support our development without anything in return, please feel free to do so

[GeorgeStorm]

The biggest issue here is as others have put it

It makes most scores worthless to the team as most things have been benched by someone in our team with better cooling than the masses.

[Guest cowgut]

can you give rev3 a chance plz too much too soon...my teams in austraila wtf?

[Mr.Scott]

Obviously this is a tricky point. Three things:

 

1) Online competitions will not have a huge effect on the ranking. live competitions (eg: moa/gooc) will have a slightly bigger effect, but obviously not so big that winning the worldwide final will give you a certain top-5 spot.

 

2) We've suggest a three-stage online competition concept for the next year for supporting manufacturers, that (hopefully) will improve the online competitions a lot more.

 

- stage 1: marketing overclocking -> some guys (UFL) get pre-binned cards to show off the overclocking capabilities of X hardware (no prizes)

- stage 2: extreme overclocking -> low-cost hardware will be needed to win a high-end product (eg: GTS450 for GTX480+XPower/UD9)

- stage 3: ambient overclocking -> random hardware for mainstream product

 

The idea is that people who will compete for the big(ger) prize in stage 2 will have to mod the crap out of a low-cost product to gain a component that was shown off in stage 1. This instead of the current "you need high-end to win high-end" concepts.

 

3) We obviously need an incentive for MFCs to support the development of HWBOT. I know you all think we're making shitloads of money here, but in fact it's as simple as just making break even at the end of each month. And that's without having a dedicated software coder to deal with all the bugs and feature requests. If we want to keep HWBOT running in the future and make sure features are added regularly, we need MFCs (like MSI, GIGABYTE and ADATA do now) to actually start to support us financially ... as we never want the community to pay for this site. If you can make other companies out there (which whom we've had contact already) to support our development without anything in return, please feel free to do so

I see.

The future end result here is to be a corporate sponsored "puppet" overclocking competition site, plainly stated in #3 of your post above.

The little guys stand no chance here and never will, if that's truly your goal.

Way to go. You sold out.

[Massman]

I see.

The future end result here is to be a corporate sponsored "puppet" overclocking competition site, plainly stated in #3 of your post above.

The little guys stand no chance here and never will, if that's truly your goal.

Way to go. You sold out.

 

-sigh-

 

Why are you and your team mates always trying to make everything look so controversial? Every single opinion that does not line up with your thoughts are seen as "idiotic", "corporate machine" or "just to piss us off".

 

I'm really not grasping the importance of you using the words "corporate puppet". It's as simple as: either we can do this full-time and give you something, or we can't and can give you nothing ... I'm not sure how it works in your neighbourhood, but I just can't buy bread with fictional air-money. The amount of request for the actual development on HWBOT has reached a stage where it's impossible for Frederik to do even 10% of it in his free time (or night time), so it's an absolute necessity to find resources to keep this site running.

 

Are we bad guys for asking money from MFCs? The alternative is that we're charging the overclocking community for keeping this site running ... is that the best alternative then?

 

You always make it look as if the ONLY alternative is that no one should be paid and all features must be added within a short time-frame. That's just not possible ...

[Bobnova]

So no, if it's not a gbt/msi/adata comp it won't count.

 

 

Thing is, we don't necessarily need new features added constantly.

 

I understand not wanting to be a pay site, and i understand that this sort of thing costs money to run.

Despite that, this is HWBot, not GigaMSIDataBOT, isn't it? I'm rather strongly opposed to this changing from By Overclocks For Overclockers to By Manufacturers For Marketing.

If that means no development beyond what people donate in their spare time, so be it.

(EDIT: Reading massman's post above, i guess i'm in the minority here, be realistic people!)

 

 

I like #2, i think that is an excellent plan. Especially if there are CPU type limits imposed too (say, i7 920/930.950, something attainable).

 

EDIT:

Having contemplated it, I think I would prefer to spend a couple bucks a month on a HWBot subscription then to have the sort of manufacturer lockdown implied above.

Edited September 18, 2010 by Bobnova

[Mr.Scott]

-sigh-

 

Why are you and your team mates always trying to make everything look so controversial? Every single opinion that does not line up with your thoughts are seen as "idiotic", "corporate machine" or "just to piss us off".

 

I'm really not grasping the importance of you using the words "corporate puppet". It's as simple as: either we can do this full-time and give you something, or we can't and can give you nothing ... I'm not sure how it works in your neighbourhood, but I just can't buy bread with fictional air-money. The amount of request for the actual development on HWBOT has reached a stage where it's impossible for Frederik to do even 10% of it in his free time (or night time), so it's an absolute necessity to find resources to keep this site running.

 

Are we bad guys for asking money from MFCs? The alternative is that we're charging the overclocking community for keeping this site running ... is that the best alternative then?

 

You always make it look as if the ONLY alternative is that no one should be paid and all features must be added within a short time-frame. That's just not possible ...

My team mates have nothing to do with my post at all. Don't read into what isn't there. I understand that it costs money to keep a site like this running, and I can appreciate what you're trying to do to get that. But let's call a spade a spade here. Instead of saying you're doing what you're doing to control the amount of cheats and sharing on the site, why don't you just come clean and say that the small time OC'ers don't fit your long term corporate sponsored goals anymore, instead of just quietly instituting change after change to alienate them, and stringing them along.

BTW, by reading the above posts, I would say that it's not just myself and my team mates that are in disagreement with the proposed revision. I see quite a few big teams and heavy hitters responding quite similiarly.

Edited September 18, 2010 by Mr.Scott