How to engage the "Extreme Rookie" community?

[Massman]

Hey guys,

 

For a while we've been trying to figure out how to enable the new generation of extreme overclockers. With the Rookie and Novice categories + XTU and the Rookie Rumble, getting new blood to enter the world of overclocking and stick around has been quite successful. In fact, we have never seen so many people stick around and be active in the quarter after registration!

 

We have some stuff planned to engage the Novice crowd further with Rumble-like competitions.

 

The next step is to figure out how to enable new extreme overclockers. As far as I know based on (random) conversations there are three problems:

 

1) The cost to do LN2 competitively is too high

2) People don't like to be compared against the sponsored overclockers

3) Currently one try with extreme cooling moves you automatically to extreme, losing your enthusiast ranking

 

About 1) and 2) it's difficult to do much at HWBOT, but we've created an entire platform at OC-ESPORTS for this (you can compete with AMD APU or even ARM chips if you don't want to be forced to buy 4770K + GTX 980).

 

Issue 3) is a bit more difficult. MarshallR from the ROG forums made an interesting suggestion, though. He suggested to leave a grey zone between Enthusiast and Extreme where a user who tries LN2 can gain points for the results and is ranked in both Enthusiast and Extreme League. Of course the points in the Enthusiast League would be affected by any extreme submission. So for example:

X = extreme cooling; E = ambient cooling

Simplified League where the rank is calculated on the "best 5 scores with unique hardware"

Result #1 - 50pts - X - CPU 1
Result #2 - 40pts - E - CPU 2
Result #3 - 30pts - E - CPU 1
Result #4 - 20pts - X - CPU 3
Result #5 - 10pts - E - CPU 4
Result #6 - 5pts - X - CPU 5
Result #7 - 2pts - E - CPU 6

Points for Enthusiast League BEFORE extreme result = 40 + 30 + 10 + 2 = 82pts

Points for Enthusiast League AFTER extreme result = 40 + 10 + 2 = 50pts
Points for Extreme League AFTER extreme result = 50 + 40 + 20 + 10 + 5 = 125pts

 

So in effect: the user loses 32 pts from his Enthusiast League total after submitting the extreme cooling results. The reason is: result #3 is not taking into account because Result #1 is better and uses the same hardware. Result #6 is not taken into account because the algorithm only uses the 5 best scores of the user.

 

What do you guys think about that?

[sergii.ua]

Great idea. Flawless.

Small correction - user loses 30 prs from Enthusiast League, not 32.

[Guest cowgut]

I always wonder how non sub zero guys can set common cpu records,and its just too much put into the league thing.

its your show and I love you guys no matter but I just hope it does not get too convoluted.

like whats next? the I put a stock heatsink cooled cpu and gpu in a dry ice carrier league...like its -30c if the box is full....nah thats too long a league name lol

 

 

problem 3 is easy to fix set your submission to no points then you don't lose your whatever rank.

others always cry about this guy or that guy this and that .

what are you going to do break it down for the cry babies ....ok ok you tell them have the fastest xxx run on a Tuesday at 4.56 pm on a rainy day in there moms basement? can I get in the garage league I will be the fastest on a sunday 8.00pm lololololol

ok ok do what you are going to do I still love it and have a happy new years....hey wait a holiday league???....that would be tough just thinking about it

Edited December 31, 2014 by cowgut

[suzuki]

Disable points for subzero submissions seems to be the best idea.

You still keep your rank in there and see your result compared with others,if you need points for that submission you should consider changing league.

[Trouffman]

1 and 2 an onpy be countered by local gathering or workshop.

 

Indeed the "disable point" can be a solution. Having pointcalculated differently make it a bit more complex but could work too !

[zeropluszero]

I think the most prohibitive thing is cost and availability of dewars/pots.

at least for Australia.

[Massman]

Of course disabling points is an option, but it's not very inspiring for people. It's a "negative action" ... I prefer to do "positive actions".

 

Think about when you started doing extreme overclocking. At least for me, I didn't start straight with liquid nitrogen. I went from single stage phase change to dry ice and then eventually liquid nitrogen. But back then, it was a bit easier because A64 was coldbugging, there weren't "this many" people doing liquid nitrogen and the binning was less as well.

 

I'm not sure but nowadays single stage phase change seems not really that much interesting. It's better to stay enthusiast than to go straight in competition with the heavy LN2 hitters. There's not a real step in between.

 

I think the most prohibitive thing is cost and availability of dewars/pots.

at least for Australia.

[JunkDogg]

I think it's a great idea, and I'm for any change as I've been sitting on the fence for a while now.

 

I've had pots for over 2 months and not used them. The lack of LN2 and DICE available where I live also makes it hard.

 

My 2 cents worth of an idea though, which isn't worth much as I'm still what I class as a OC noob.

 

Why have 3 "non-extreme" leagues.

 

Why not maybe have bit of a re-structure.

 

 

 

Rookie League - Obviously leave this as it is. First 3 months - non extreme cooling.

Novice League - Make this your league for air/water overclockers. As there are a few from this league that will never go above air/water.

Enthusiast League - Make this league for SS/DICE. Both sit roughly in the same world. DICE having bit more of a edge.

Extreme League - LN2/Helium etc - For the guys who use cooling below -100.

 

 

 

 

I've just never understood the purpose of having the novice and enthusiast leagues.

[Mr.Scott]

Just leave it alone.

3 leagues was plenty.

You're not gonna make everybody happy even if there was 50 leagues.

Keep it simple.

[Strong Island]

I think it's a great idea, and I'm for any change as I've been sitting on the fence for a while now.

 

I've had pots for over 2 months and not used them. The lack of LN2 and DICE available where I live also makes it hard.

 

My 2 cents worth of an idea though, which isn't worth much as I'm still what I class as a OC noob.

 

Why have 3 "non-extreme" leagues.

 

Why not maybe have bit of a re-structure.

 

 

 

Rookie League - Obviously leave this as it is. First 3 months - non extreme cooling.

Novice League - Make this your league for air/water overclockers. As there are a few from this league that will never go above air/water.

Enthusiast League - Make this league for SS/DICE. Both sit roughly in the same world. DICE having bit more of a edge.

Extreme League - LN2/Helium etc - For the guys who use cooling below -100.

 

 

 

 

I've just never understood the purpose of having the novice and enthusiast leagues.

 

this doesn't really help with trying dice/ln2 a few times, getting points, and not having to move up a league.

 

I was kind of upset at first that my first ln2 sub made me switch leagues and almost made watercooling subs not fun anymore, but now I am glad that I switch to extreme league and wouldn't like a change since I already had to make this decision myself.

 

I thought about a cool idea when deciding which league to join. Maybe setting up 2 accounts, one for water and one for extreme, but that wont really work and would mess up the team leagues.

 

I think things are good the way they are. Once you start using ln2 you wont really want to go back to water anyway.

[Massman]

Rookie League - Obviously leave this as it is. First 3 months - non extreme cooling.

Novice League - Make this your league for air/water overclockers. As there are a few from this league that will never go above air/water.

Enthusiast League - Make this league for SS/DICE. Both sit roughly in the same world. DICE having bit more of a edge.

Extreme League - LN2/Helium etc - For the guys who use cooling below -100.

 

Thanks for the input JD! It's good to hear input from the people who are just beginning in this overclocking thing. I like your structure, actually. So if I get it correctly it's like:

 

- Rookie: just starting out

- Novice: air and aio watercooling (like h100 series)

- Enthusiast: everything from watercooling to dry ice

- Extreme: liquid nitrogen

- Elite: sponsored and professional overclockers

 

Maybe it's because it's Saturday today and my brain is lazy, but I can't grasp the implications for a transition from the current format to the one above yet. But I do think this gives people a nice "career path" in overclocking. High-end crazy water cooling systems should actually be able to compete with average dry ice systems or phase change systems.

 

 

Just leave it alone.

3 leagues was plenty.

You're not gonna make everybody happy even if there was 50 leagues.

Keep it simple.

 

The goal is not to make specific people happy, but find answers to certain problems we're having based on usage data. For a very long time we had difficulties attracting new people to overclocking, but when we did the xtu project with intel we suddenly had a significant in-stream of new blood. When we just launched, we couldn't convince the new blood to stick around so we had to find a solution for that. That's basically the Rookie Rumble and the Rookie League. The metric we use to measure the success rate is "amount of users who are active in the quarter following the quarter they registered". We're seeing the effect now: there's never been so many people continuing to be active the quarter following their registration, ever.

 

But now there's another problem: how to turn this new blood in really passionate hardcore overclockers? The numbers for LN2 overclocking are not great to say the least. There are many reasons for this: cost and availability of LN2, cost of competitive overclocking, discouragement from gap between "starting ln2" and "elite", etc. One of the reasons is also that people can't really "try out" LN2 and experience the effect it has on their ranking without completely losing the Enthusiast rank.

 

So that's what this thread is about. How to give people who want to try and option to carefully set their first steps without cutting ties with the ranking they worked so hard on.

[Mr.Scott]

One of the reasons is also that people can't really "try out" LN2 and experience the effect it has on their ranking without completely losing the Enthusiast rank.

 

So that's what this thread is about. How to give people who want to try and option to carefully set their first steps without cutting ties with the ranking they worked so hard on.

I understand that, but it is no different than moving from 'semi pro' to 'pro' in any other sport. When you decide to make the move, you leave your 'semi pro' rank behind. If you decide 'pro' is not for you, you can delete those subs and move back to 'semi pro'.

I just don't see what the problem is with that. The people who are really hooked on OC competition will stay no matter what.

They can't have their cake and eat it too. Just my opinion, take it for what it's worth.

 

EDIT- Myself as an example. I have very few sub ambient subs. I am in Extreme. If I delete those subs, I could very well be in the top 40 Enthusiast rank. Does it matter?, no. I know what my skills are and don't need to be rewarded to stay in the Extreme league.

Edited January 3, 2015 by Mr.Scott

[sergii.ua]

My opinion:

- remove Novice League, not interesting on practice. Too much leagues for newbie.

- extend Rookie from 3 to 6 months, too short

- add new Rookie Extreme, for newbie in extreme cooling (12 months), for boosting motivation

- no special legues for SS, Dice (too little group)

- you can compete only in 1 league

[zeropluszero]

High-end crazy water cooling systems should actually be able to compete with average dry ice systems or phase change systems.

Lol. Not since sandy bridge.

[JunkDogg]

My opinion:

- remove Novice League, not interesting on practice. Too much leagues for newbie.

- extend Rookie from 3 to 6 months, too short

- add new Rookie Extreme, for newbie in extreme cooling (12 months), for boosting motivation

- no special legues for SS, Dice (too little group)

- you can compete only in 1 league

 

 

I like this. Especially the Rookie extreme idea. I think it may only need to be 6 months though. Run a Rookie Extreme comp every 4-6 weeks. No prizes needed, just the idea of competition is enough to keep people interested/motivated.

 

So if I am getting this right.

 

Rookie League - 6 months. Ambient cooling techniques. Move onto Enthusiast league after 6 month period.

Enthusiast league - For those not wishing to move into Extreme League.

Rookie Extreme League - For those moving into Extreme Cooling Techniques from Enthuisast/Rookie Leagues. Move into Extreme League after 6 month period.

Extreme League - Extreme Cooling clearly.

Pro League(or whatever it's called) - For those people who are "uber leet". LOL

 

 

 

I like this setup.

Edited January 4, 2015 by JunkDogg

[Chilli-Man]

I like this. Especially the Rookie extreme idea. I think it may only need to be 6 months though. Run a Rookie Extreme comp every 4-6 weeks. No prizes needed, just the idea of competition is enough to keep people interested/motivated.

 

So if I am getting this right.

 

Rookie League - 6 months. Ambient cooling techniques. Move onto Enthusiast league after 6 month period.

Enthusiast league - For those not wishing to move into Extreme League.

Rookie Extreme League - For those moving into Extreme Cooling Techniques from Enthuisast/Rookie Leagues. Move into Extreme League after 6 month period.

Extreme League - Extreme Cooling clearly.

Pro League(or whatever it's called) - For those people who are "uber leet". LOL

 

 

 

I like this setup.

 

 

I'm also liking this setup. Not sure on the 6 or 12 months before moving out of the Rookie leagues, but this plus relevant comps should help ease the transition.

[ogblaz]

I dont think that anything that you will change in the points section will atract new extreme overclockers.

Lets face it to be extreme it costs a lot of money, the ln2 cost here is the least, i bought a dewar that costs like a high end gpu, a used shi*y pot and lets go on my 24/7 rig. It was fun, but then if you want good results you need a good motherboard, bined some cpus and you just scrached the surface, where is ram and then gpu+ all the knowledge to use this, vmods.....

Who will do extreme doesnt care about scores, i didnt, at the begining that is, now i am addicted in a way and I dont think that is a good thing

[sergii.ua]

I dont think that anything that you will change in the points section will atract new extreme overclockers.

Lets face it to be extreme it costs a lot of money, the ln2 cost here is the least, i bought a dewar that costs like a high end gpu, a used shi*y pot and lets go on my 24/7 rig. It was fun, but then if you want good results you need a good motherboard, bined some cpus and you just scrached the surface, where is ram and then gpu+ all the knowledge to use this, vmods.....

Who will do extreme doesnt care about scores, i didnt, at the begining that is, now i am addicted in a way and I dont think that is a good thing

 

All people are different. Massman need to analyze statistics. If Rookie/Novice Leagues increased submissions from newbies, we need to try Rookie Extreme for 1-2 months as beta.

 

As for me, Rookie/Novice leagues increased my motivation. But I don't know how many people like me.

[JunkDogg]

All people are different. Massman need to analyze statistics. If Rookie/Novice Leagues increased submissions from newbies, we need to try Rookie Extreme for 1-2 months as beta.

 

As for me, Rookie/Novice leagues increased my motivation. But I don't know how many people like me.

 

Yeah the rookie league got me going. I've been a bit slow as of late(work/moving house/etc).

 

It was the rookie rumble's what a great way to enter the world of extreme overclocking.

 

Straight away you have a competition that you can be competitive in and see that what you are doing is up there with the rest.

[Massman]

Thanks for the kind word guys. In hindsight, the Rookie Rumble and League is something we should have done a long time ago. But, live and learn.

 

Thanks for the feedback too! I think we will start with a competition for the Novice guys to follow up with the Rumble.

 

Keep the opinions and suggestions coming for the Rookie Extreme. It's really good to learn from you

[Jimba]

I joined when rookie didn't exist so I'm in enthusiast league. I like others want to go to extreme ln2 etc. I have pots and parts to make the switch, but like others have said cost is a issue.

 

I think more local LN2 workshops would be a great idea as this way the newbie ln2/cold guys can learn and then start submitting good scores.

 

The issue with the leagues I agree with what has been said about extending rookie and all those points.

[macsbeach98]

Wish I had seen this thread before now.

The Rookie / Novice league wasn't around when I first started but are a fantastic idea.

I can understand that people drop off after coming off Novice and into enthusiast the answer is not to change the leagues but to have more competitions that is limited to watercooling as well as comps that are limited to Dice/SS

There is not really any comps that are limited to watercooling for the enthusiast league so when you are out of novice the motivation isn't there anymore enthusiasts have to usually compete against the Extreme fella's.

There dont really have to be big prizes competition points towards your league ranking is enough to motivate most.

The same goes for getting enthusiasts over to Extreme have some comps limited to dice/SS it will be more more enticing to be able to compete with other people using Dice than seasoned pro's using LN2.

Once you move to Extreme its a bit daunting to be competing with the top Extreme Fella's but if some comps are limited to Dice some of the top Extreme Fella's wont be bothered competing and it makes it a more even playing field for newcomers to Extreme.

 

Different Comps with different cooling methods running at the same time will also keep the participants competing against the same level participants than entering in Comps that might not be suited to them.

 

Just my 2c worth

[Bones]

I like this. Especially the Rookie extreme idea. I think it may only need to be 6 months though. Run a Rookie Extreme comp every 4-6 weeks. No prizes needed, just the idea of competition is enough to keep people interested/motivated.

 

So if I am getting this right.

 

Rookie League - 6 months. Ambient cooling techniques. Move onto Enthusiast league after 6 month period.

Enthusiast league - For those not wishing to move into Extreme League.

Rookie Extreme League - For those moving into Extreme Cooling Techniques from Enthuisast/Rookie Leagues. Move into Extreme League after 6 month period.

Extreme League - Extreme Cooling clearly.

Pro League(or whatever it's called) - For those people who are "uber leet". LOL

 

I like this setup.

 

I like this setup overall too but with a tweak or two thrown in.

 

Rookie League - 6 months. Ambient cooling techniques only. Move onto Enthusiast league after 6 month period.

 

Enthusiast league - For those not wishing to move into Extreme League, no sub-zero cooling methods.

 

Extreme League - For those starting out with sub-zero, no LN2 but all else applies such as DICE or SS. Also for those not wanting to run LN2 or may not have access to LN2 or equipment (Such as lack of a Dewar, those things are expensive you know). Once a sub-zero entry is made, bencher is automatically bumped up into this league from lower leagues with the exception of an LN2 sub, then the Semi-Pro league requirements kick in if that's the case.

 

Semi-Pro League - Unlimited cooling including LN2 - Once an LN2 sub is made, you are automatically bumped up into this league from the lower leagues regardless of which league you were in when the sub was made.

 

Pro League - For those people who are "uber leet".

 

While I do understand bumping folks up after a given amount of time, there is also a limit to how far this can go - Some of us would never be able to have a setup for LN2 and even a few that would remain as water or air only.

 

Moving up from the Enthusiast league to higher leagues should be up to the bencher but anything that's sub-zero will bump them up from Enthusiast to Extreme period as it more or less is now.

If it's an LN2 entry, that's a bump right up into the Semi-Pro league, no questions asked.

 

I"ll throw in if you want to voluntarily move up into a higher class, go for it.

 

No, this isn't perfect either but I do recognize that LN2 is more or less in a class of it's own with very few entries with water, SS or DICE beating or even matching LN2 entries overall.

 

Just my 2 cents about it.

[Strunkenbold]

When I remembering some years ago I submitted a result using a watercooled TEC on a Pentium 3 which was worth 2hw points and next day I began to wonder why my position in the league was now 500 places worse...

Really I couldnt understand why bot do this kind of punishment for trying something new.

 

So my opinion is, dont let us think too strict. Why people always have to be part of one particular league? Whats the advantage?

 

Lets say your are an ambitious Rookie. During the first 6 months you have your place in Rookie league all is fine but maybe you say, its not enough for you to be only on water. Maybe you want to participate a team event with DICE or LN2 and someone of your team mates will guide you to do than you would switch automatically to extreme. -Very bad

So my proposal is let him rank in Novice, Enthusiast and Extreme at the same time! Of course your extreme cooling results would only count in extreme league but the rest of your results remain like they were before. You stay in Rookie league to have the motivation but also see what happens when those 6 / 12 months "protection" is over.

I know this would require some extra server power but it would be my view of a fair and motivating ranking system

[MrBreeze]

Just came across this too and had one other thought for people transitioning to Extreme. You could allow Enthusiasts a small number of subzero subs (say, 5, for example) before they get moved up, without shaking up the overall league structure. These would contribute to league ranking just as anything else until they crossed a threshold number. A few subs would give them (us!) a chance to try it out and post some scores before going all in.

 

On the other hand I see Mr.Scott's point and would add that because the cost, time and knowledge barriers are so huge for a lot of people, taken in that context, getting knocked back down to the bottom rung in Extreme when you move to subzero just seems like par for the course, and even fitting. And you could make a strong case that it's unfair for Enthusiast guys who will never try subzero to be up against others in the same league who could put up north of 100 or even 200 points easily with just a few choice LN2 subs.