yosarianilives Posted November 19, 2019 Share Posted November 19, 2019 1 hour ago, Luebke said: it´s a pity stage 8 is not legacy because one good 2080Ti is more worth then all other results together. i´d limit the stage for example to gpu up to DX10 or more than 10 years old It sucks for those wanting to push legacy hw but it's also nice to have less scores to worry about. Overall I'm divided on the issue for how I feel. However, this competition has been going on since nov 1. It is absolutely too late for people to ask for rule changes only clarifications imho, especially when there was a planning thread open for more than a month for people to ask for stages to be changed. It would become stage 14 2.0 where people demanded change, their was a vote, nobody could agree, and finally the fact the competition had been going for 10 days already led Leeg to make the correct decision and change nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickulty Posted November 20, 2019 Share Posted November 20, 2019 16 hours ago, Luebke said: it´s a pity stage 8 is not legacy because one good 2080Ti is more worth then all other results together. i´d limit the stage for example to gpu up to DX10 or more than 10 years old I honestly like stage 8. It's certainly fairly asymmetrical but I don't think that makes the other platforms irrelevant, especially as I'd expect most competitive countries to have a good PCIe score. If anything I wish it was unrestricted for PCIe to make it easier to get that score, but ah well. You also have to remember if it was 100% legacy, people who don't like legacy stuff would be upset. This way it's two scores on modern hardware (PCIe and IGP), one on oldish hardware (hybrid), one on properly legacy hardware (AGP), and then whatever weird stuff the PCI score is. Everyone gets to play and the cries of "why legacy in country cup" are quieter. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yee245 Posted November 20, 2019 Share Posted November 20, 2019 I was actually looking at some theoretical combos for stage 8, and I don't think just having a really good 2080Ti score is sufficient to guarantee winning the stage. Looking at the 2080 Ti scores for 3DMark06, it looks like the top score is 77,446, followed by 74,928, and those are with 8-core CPUs, so I'd imagine with the 4-core limitation, scores would only be lower. Having a good Vega 11 score for integrated graphics score seems like it could bring in somewhere around 24k points (or somewhere in the 20k range with other integrated graphics (and I'd have no idea how the Vega M's would do, since there are no results with them yet)). Then a team could add another 9-15k from an AGP card (because there's already a couple submissions at around 12k and 15k). Being able to bring in close to 35k points from just integrated and AGP could potentially overcome a high 2080Ti score, I would imagine. And I'm not even really sure what the hybrid category is (is it just an AMD APU crossfired with a select dedicated cards?)... I feel like it's still balanced enough that it's not just a "how has the fastest 2080Ti" stage. If anything, it's more likely going to be a battle of the teams that can muster really any PCI card, since they're realistically only going to be adding a a few thousand points anyway... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luebke Posted November 22, 2019 Share Posted November 22, 2019 @mickulty: the problem is not, that i would prefer legacy pci-e hardware, the problem is, modern GPU´s make way more points so the results of legacy GPU nearly does make no difference. the relation is disproportunal. if our team had a very good 2080Ti i could run my 3850 easily @ stock to beat macsbeach98´s team (btw very nice work macsbeach98). that´s a pity to me... just my two cents worth... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ground Posted November 22, 2019 Share Posted November 22, 2019 4 hours ago, Luebke said: @mickulty: the problem is not, that i would prefer legacy pci-e hardware, the problem is, modern GPU´s make way more points so the results of legacy GPU nearly does make no difference. the relation is disproportunal. if our team had a very good 2080Ti i could run my 3850 easily @ stock to beat macsbeach98´s team (btw very nice work macsbeach98). that´s a pity to me... just my two cents worth... Lets have a look at the last time there was a "GPU socket" categorie and look at #1 and #2... https://hwbot.org/search/submissions/permalink?ids=2467844,2468072,2468323,2462342,2468134 https://hwbot.org/search/submissions/permalink?ids=2468318,2468259,2448048,2450594,2468354 And, for better comparision, the full results. https://hwbot.org/competition/country_cup_2013/stage/1157_3dmark03_(legacy) Looking at this even the PCI score could end up relevant this year... Back then if Germany would've had a higher score in PCI they would've beaten Australia in that stage... So shut up with "the old stuff is irrelevant". If we only focus on the 2080 Ti score, there is no way we are winning that stage even if we have fillers... 2 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yosarianilives Posted November 22, 2019 Share Posted November 22, 2019 2 hours ago, ground1556 said: Lets have a look at the last time there was a "GPU socket" categorie and look at #1 and #2... https://hwbot.org/search/submissions/permalink?ids=2467844,2468072,2468323,2462342,2468134 https://hwbot.org/search/submissions/permalink?ids=2468318,2468259,2448048,2450594,2468354 And, for better comparision, the full results. https://hwbot.org/competition/country_cup_2013/stage/1157_3dmark03_(legacy) Looking at this even the PCI score could end up relevant this year... Back then if Germany would've had a higher score in PCI they would've beaten Australia in that stage... So shut up with "the old stuff is irrelevant". If we only focus on the 2080 Ti score, there is no way we are winning that stage even if we have fillers... I'd agree, but I'd also say while all scores are important you can't win that stage with weak pcie whereas you can have one other score be mediocre and maybe still win. So personally I won't try any harder than my current weak agp score if my team doesn't have a strong pcie score. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickulty Posted November 22, 2019 Share Posted November 22, 2019 Can't post a Hybrid score to Stage 8 as the stage is set up to limit to 1 core, whereas the database (sensibly) sees it as 2 cores. Cas has fix pls? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crew Leeghoofd Posted November 22, 2019 Crew Share Posted November 22, 2019 Renamed it to Dedicated single core GPU cards only to be used 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickulty Posted November 22, 2019 Share Posted November 22, 2019 58 minutes ago, Leeghoofd said: Renamed it to Dedicated single core GPU cards only to be used Brilliant, it seems to work now, thank you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
e_junkie Posted November 24, 2019 Share Posted November 24, 2019 Is it possible to add a Nvidia GT 520 PCI to the hwbot database? I can only find the PCIe version. https://www.zotac.com/us/product/graphics_card/gt-520-pci Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crew Leeghoofd Posted November 24, 2019 Crew Share Posted November 24, 2019 (edited) 31 minutes ago, e_junkie said: Is it possible to add a Nvidia GT 520 PCI to the hwbot database? I can only find the PCIe version. https://www.zotac.com/us/product/graphics_card/gt-520-pci Thanks. added, but plz provide a gpuz screenshot to fill in the correct specs Edited November 24, 2019 by Leeghoofd 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crew Strunkenbold Posted November 24, 2019 Crew Share Posted November 24, 2019 I didn't read through all of this, so this may have already answered. Stage 10 is divided by CPU socket. So Mobile chips can be used. There are some fancy Chinese CPU creations, having a mobile chip on a shim for LGA socket. It's basically a form of BGA to LGA adapter. Running a mobile chip in a desktop motherboard can yield some slight advantage, especially if you plan to run them under cold. But technically those are custom creations and thus are actually falling under the retail available hardware rule. On the other hand, the CPUs itselfs where retail available. It's just the shim that was created by third party and they are available to anyone who can organize the shipping from China. I just want to double-check that, hence I ask. https://m.intl.taobao.com/detail/detail.html?id=601707837844&spm=a21wu.9600033.recommend.1&main_itemid=569787869219&go_item_id=601707837844&pvid=e873a56b-b808-4a4c-a86e-19b08e3f2a48&utparam={"x_object_type"%3A"item"%2C"x_object_id"%3A601707837844}&scm=1007.20269.110938.1002003000000001 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ground Posted November 24, 2019 Share Posted November 24, 2019 Just now, Strunkenbold said: I didn't read through all of this, so this may have already answered. Stage 10 is divided by CPU socket. So Mobile chips can be used. There are some fancy Chinese CPU creations, having a mobile chip on a shim for LGA socket. It's basically a form of BGA to LGA adapter. Running a mobile chip in a desktop motherboard can yield some slight advantage, especially if you plan to run them under cold. But technically those are custom creations and thus are actually falling under the retail available hardware rule. On the other hand, the CPUs itselfs where retail available. It's just the shim that was created by third party and they are available to anyone who can organize the shipping from China. I just want to double-check that, hence I ask. https://m.intl.taobao.com/detail/detail.html?id=601707837844&spm=a21wu.9600033.recommend.1&main_itemid=569787869219&go_item_id=601707837844&pvid=e873a56b-b808-4a4c-a86e-19b08e3f2a48&utparam={"x_object_type"%3A"item"%2C"x_object_id"%3A601707837844}&scm=1007.20269.110938.1002003000000001 as cool as they are, the few I've seen in the wild so far were usually ES chips - thus not viable for comps. IF you find these with retail chips the question applies off course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crew Strunkenbold Posted November 24, 2019 Crew Share Posted November 24, 2019 1 minute ago, ground1556 said: as cool as they are, the few I've seen in the wild so far were usually ES chips - thus not viable for comps. IF you find these with retail chips the question applies off course. I ordered such a CPU earlier this year, cause I have friend working in China, and luckily received a non ES one. Granted half of those ordered CPUs are ES chips. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yosarianilives Posted November 24, 2019 Share Posted November 24, 2019 Pretty sure it was explicitly allowed earlier while broadwell is not allowed for some reason despite being less rare and more retail available than 4980hq which has similar performance but I got enough hate for this argument already... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
e_junkie Posted November 24, 2019 Share Posted November 24, 2019 (edited) Thank you very much. I have a picture attached to my ZOTAC GT 520 PCI. Is that okay? The memory manufacturer and the size may vary. Edited November 24, 2019 by e_junkie 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crew Strunkenbold Posted November 25, 2019 Crew Share Posted November 25, 2019 39 minutes ago, yosarianilives said: Pretty sure it was explicitly allowed earlier while broadwell is not allowed for some reason despite being less rare and more retail available than 4980hq which has similar performance but I got enough hate for this argument already... Got a link to this discussion? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yosarianilives Posted November 25, 2019 Share Posted November 25, 2019 1 hour ago, Strunkenbold said: Got a link to this discussion? It's distributed through the planning thread, I couldn't find anywhere where it was explicitly allowed on second look. I mentioned that it seemed allowed enough times without it being explicitly denied is the closest it seems. But most of the discussion is people yelling at me for suggesting that 5775c should be allowed because 6770hq and 4980hq is so my asking if mobile is allowed mightve been lost in that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unityofsaints Posted November 25, 2019 Share Posted November 25, 2019 (edited) 20 hours ago, e_junkie said: Thank you very much. I have a picture attached to my ZOTAC GT 520 PCI. Is that okay? The memory manufacturer and the size may vary. That's not the PCI version. Or is GPU-Z detecting the interface wrong? Edited November 25, 2019 by unityofsaints Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ground Posted November 25, 2019 Share Posted November 25, 2019 14 minutes ago, unityofsaints said: That's not the PCI version. Or is GPU-Z detecting the interface wrong? It's detecting the interface wrong. Happens with HD 5450 DDR2 as well. Just look at a random score for any of the other semi-modern PCI GPUs, they all show up in the same way. Try finding a score where its showing up differently Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yosarianilives Posted November 25, 2019 Share Posted November 25, 2019 (edited) That's because basically all modern "PCI" cards are actually native PCI-e at the chip level, it then hits a bridge chip to bring it to PCI protocal. Which is part of why any non native pci board will score terribly as you essentially are converting from pcie to pci then back to pcie using 2 bridge chips. To the driver it would probably only see the pcie bus that the bridgechip provides as the bridge chip probably never talks to the driver. Edited November 25, 2019 by yosarianilives Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unityofsaints Posted November 25, 2019 Share Posted November 25, 2019 2 hours ago, ground1556 said: It's detecting the interface wrong. Happens with HD 5450 DDR2 as well. Just look at a random score for any of the other semi-modern PCI GPUs, they all show up in the same way. Try finding a score where its showing up differently Ok fair enough but how do you stop someone subbing a PCI-E card as PCI? Rigpics not even required this year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Digg_de Posted November 26, 2019 Share Posted November 26, 2019 Maybe CPU-Z MB Tab -> Link Width 1x? I have no modern PCI Card to check if any App detect it correct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerraRaptor Posted November 26, 2019 Share Posted November 26, 2019 Riva should detect pci I think 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crew Strunkenbold Posted November 26, 2019 Crew Share Posted November 26, 2019 On 11/25/2019 at 2:26 AM, yosarianilives said: It's distributed through the planning thread, I couldn't find anywhere where it was explicitly allowed on second look. I mentioned that it seemed allowed enough times without it being explicitly denied is the closest it seems. But most of the discussion is people yelling at me for suggesting that 5775c should be allowed because 6770hq and 4980hq is so my asking if mobile is allowed mightve been lost in that. I red now through the 8 pages of the design thread. Yeah, you didn't really receive any answer to your question. So I think the intention was, to only allow non eDRAM devices. I guess Alby wanted to see a high megahertz competition between different gens of k processors, and he especially wants to see some haswell action. So that's why, no broadwell allowed because they share the same socket 1150. But Intel integrated stuff is really complicated, having tons of different IGPs with strange names and CPU sockets. I remember the the i7 4770R, which is by definition of intel a desktop CPU, but bga and quite rare and expensive. I think properly tuned this can maybe eliminate the need of a ivy bridge score. And also other high end iris plus laptop parts could possibly see an advantage over ivy. It all depends on how much you can push ivy IGP under LN2. Back to my initial question, based on my theory above, the Chinese CPU creations aren't allowed in the comp, correct? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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